D.Va's Current State: Discussion Megathread Part 12

General Discussion
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03/24/2017 03:52 PMPosted by FlamingToast
I hope this one can cap just as quickly as the last one! Again, thanks for your resilience!


So far it's 1 capped megathread per day in the last days, if it goes on like this we'll get up to 30 by the tuesday just before Easter... I'd say it wouldn't be a nice view if the devs ingored them that far.
If we accept this, then the entirety of the forums are basically pointless. Yet, the developers still read and take feedback from the forums. Because the people motivated enough to bother coming here have something to say. If we accept what you're saying though, then the forums, reddit, etc. might as well either be shutdown or require a minimum amount of participation from every OW player before they are allowed to hop into each game they play. This goes nowhere and accomplishes nothing.


You're missing the point.

Feedback is feedback. Good feedback is good feedback.

However, just understand that this thread is just a drop in the bucket as far as representation is concerned.

In short: Your feedback is valuable. Your fear-mongering is not.

Any claims that D.Va is "garbage tier", or that she's not played, or that Orisa will "be the death of D.Va" is simply false. We don't have that data. Blizzard does, and if they saw that they would act on it. There is evidence that they will (Junkrat's buff is great evidence. He's underplayed in the upper levels of the game, and the buff should help that)
This time I'm going to be more constructive about this.

Sorry if I'm repetitive, but I can't resist. Just look.
Every one of them. Every single one of them. Every single negative comment has something in common.

03/24/2017 02:07 PMPosted by FATPANDA
wah blizzard is ignoring us, even though we post the response blizzard gave about DVA but it's not the one we want to hear. So lets make another thread and keep complaining that DVA is not broken anymore.
xbox, gold

03/24/2017 02:26 PMPosted by Rosenrot234
these threads are pretty dang pointless
PC, but 48 minutes on D.Va

03/24/2017 02:49 PMPosted by Synaesthesia
Please, give it a rest. At some point you all should read Aesop's fables, especially the one about the boy crying wolf and the dog who saw his own reflection.
psn, gold

03/24/2017 02:53 PMPosted by ToxicGambler
Ok so at this point im all out of sympathy for Dva due to the fact that these megathreads are still going. Stop spamming forums with the incessant salty tears over Dva please ?
psn, master

Just....just every single time.
I swear to all what is holy, every post of this kind comes from a console player, a low rank or someone with very little playtime on D.Va. Or all of them combined.

Listen.
D.Va may be fine on console and lower ranks.
We get it.
Although
03/24/2017 06:40 AMPosted by Tera
Console player and previous D.Va main here, can confirm she's not fine, especially at my rank (M, GM)
begs to differ.

You're not inferior, your opinions are not invalid, but it's just different. DIFFERENT.
The fact D.Va plays fine for your elo and/or platform of preference does not mean she's fine for everyone above you.

I have a friend who plays OW on ps4, back on hook 1.0 he always claimed Roadhog was not OP, and not that difficult to dodge. Then he tried playing on PC. Forbid him not being used to the different controls, but he sure changed his mind in no time.

Torb was never OP on PC, but he got nerfed on console. Symmetra? same.
It even appears that Pharmercy is an issue over there, and I don't find very hard to believe that, because aiming with a joypad is harder than using a mouse. On PC? It's a non-issue. I don't know if she feels too strong on silver, where maybe players don't have the best aim or just lack the surroundings awareness to notice her before she blows up everyone. That's still not Pharah's problem.

I don't go telling NotMcCree that McCree is fine when I have barely played him and I am not a DPS player myself, I don't know what's best for him. I however support their arguments because their megathreads provide the same amount of information we do, if not more, and I can tell they know what they're saying. Same thing goes for Reaper.

But you, generic rude player?
You do go in there and post "lel i do fine so x is fine, stop crying salt xdxd". You will get disliked to hell and you will complain about the dislikes you deserved, trying to make every person who disagrees with you like a spoiled child when you're the one trash talking and being immature.

Moral of the story is:
If there's anyone who has to stop, that's got to be those of you who merely hop in threads who address issues in the most constructive possible way, just to be toxic, thinking to know better than high tier users with triple digit playtime on a character when maybe you play games in the 1900 elo, using a joypad and perhaps you barely have 30 minutes of playtime on said hero.
Adjust the falloff penalty either by lessening it, or kicking in at further range, and tighten her weapon spread.

By allowing her to better contend outside 10m, would lessen the need for a health buff or crit multiplier change.
03/24/2017 02:38 PMPosted by Nerd
03/24/2017 02:26 PMPosted by Rosenrot234
These threads are like when you think a rude person is gonna learn their lesson if you just keep trying to tell him "Hey man you're being a jerk."

"Oh well that was the 12th time oh I must be a jerk"

No. That does not happen. I get your passion but these threads are pretty dang pointless.


I would expect after 60k threads, that you could do better than that.


Better? I'm stating the obvious
PC, but 48 minutes on D.Va


-witnessed all the other threads about this with people thinking "Blizz hasn't seen us! We gotta make more!" -
03/24/2017 04:11 PMPosted by Rosenrot234
PC, but 48 minutes on D.Va


-witnessed all the other threads about this with people thinking "Blizz hasn't seen us! We gotta make more!" -
You didn't even read my entire post, you're just here to seek attention which I won't give you anymore.
Just....just every single time.
I swear to all what is holy, every post of this kind comes from a console player, a low rank or someone with very little playtime on D.Va. Or all of them combined.

Listen.
D.Va may be fine on console and lower ranks.
We get it.
By this logic though, we should be inspecting every post made by pro-DVA posters.

Although

03/24/2017 06:40 AMPosted by Tera
Console player and previous D.Va main here, can confirm she's not fine, especially at my rank (M, GM)

begs to differ.
I'm not sure why this person's opinion is considered more worthwhile, since they're also a console player.

Picking on people for their platform, ELO, or, dare I say, playtime isn't necessarily a good avenue to go down. ESPECIALLY considering that many of the pro-DVA posters have made it plain that they don't play DVA nearly as much any more. And regardless of the rest of your post, this is definitely the way it is coming across, at least in my eyes.

Let's focus on what they're saying.
Cool
03/24/2017 04:11 PMPosted by Rosenrot234
PC, but 48 minutes on D.Va


-witnessed all the other threads about this with people thinking "Blizz hasn't seen us! We gotta make more!" -


Feel free to go back to one of your other threads.
03/24/2017 02:39 PMPosted by Meedup
I see the threads are developing for a while now, and many suggestions are being thrown, so I want to write a bit about my own experiences with D.va:

I've been playing her since before the competitive season, she's been my most played in all 4 seasons through all her buffs and nerfs, and I've been on a solid position in mid masters around 3600~3700 for most of my games.

I do aggree with one of the points raised on the OP is that d.va does not need a rework like bastion or symmetra got. What she needs is more of a fine tuning with the kit she already has.

----- Her boosters is flawless, I wouldnt change anything about that. It's on pair with winston's, makes her fun to play, the boop is amazing. I dont think anyone sees it as overpowered or underpowered.

----- The movement speed buff while firing was a nice welcome change. In a game so fast paced like overwatch, restraining mobility on any character is very frustrating (hence bastion's changes to make it more mobile was so positive). It's not overpowered since she still slows down, giving the enemy the chance to run, shield and find cover, but it no longer makes you feel like a useles rock when shooting. I wouldnt revert that.

----- As for her health pool, I never liked her extreme buff, it did felt unfair. I'm actually sort of fine with her current health for a few reasons. I see many people wanting to revert to 400armor+100 health, but I ran some tests in a custom game like this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeazGyxOUhw
(tests included more soldier in different ranges, zarya in different charges, roadhog, reaper and phara, but I only saved this clip sorry)
At the left side you have normal current d.va, and at the right side a simulation of old dva (i freeze the video as soon as she takes 400 armor damage and 100 hp damage)
My conclusion is that, for most situations, the current health is equivalent or better than the old 500 health (like versus phara she needs a whole extra shot, and zarya at 40% charge - one bubble - could kill d.va with one clip, and now she needs to reload once giving d.va a very strong window to win a duel and/or get healed). Rare exceptions like roadhog's and reaper's do more damage now, but those two are meant to dish extreme high damage at close range.
So why does it feel like the old health was better? My explanation for people wanting the old 400armor+100health damage divides in two.
First one is that, with more armor, d.va does take less trash damage from distant spaming and stray bullets (aparently the damage reduction calculation likes to round up to whole numbers?), wich makes it feel like she would take less damage overall. But this encourages careless play and I dont think people should be rewarded for walking freely among gunfire.
Second one, and the most important one, is that people got wise on how to fight against d.va during her "overpowered" and overused days. They know better now how to read her vulnerable moments, when to expect her dive, how to aim for the critbox, what's her normal flanking routes, when she's a priority target to focus (like the whole enemy team trying to take your meka down first, so then soldier or phara can ult) etc. Especially checking my old gameplay videos I see how many fights I won simply because my enemy was unsure on how to react against d.va.
In conclusion I would not revert her health to the old one, as it would not be the buff people expect it to be.
I'm not opposed to a 300/300 buff, just don't think that's the most necessary thing ever at the moment.

----- I believe the size and positioning of her current critbox is a much bigger issue than any amount of health or amor they can give her.
What we have on d.va is an unique critbox placement. By being on the middle of her body, she's at immediate disadvantage in any fights. On a normal fight, lets say soldier versus soldier, the soldier with a more sloppy aim is penalized when trying to aim for the head. If he misses the head, he shoots the empty space behind it, doing 0 damage. The soldier with better dodging skills also has the upperhand. Against d.va though, if any character misses "the head", they guarantee 100% hit the body. Since dva has low mobility when figthing and has to be at close range, she's a gigantic target, guaranteed to take all hits from her enemy, be them headshots or not.
I would experiment with two tweaks on D.va:
Reducing her critbox area (like it was with winston's) so it's actually hard to track the tiny korean inside the cockpit if you want to do high critical damage
OR
Make her take reduced critical damage. If you look at her design, she has an army meka designed for war, why isn't her cockpit made of bulletproof material? Changing her critical damage taken modifier from 2x to, I dont know, 1.8 or 1.5x, would take a lot of pressure from figthing face-to-face as d.va with characters she's supposed to be good against (like soldier, mcree and widowmaker), while not affecting the damage she takes from other characters like zarya, bastion turret, phara, junkrat, mei and reinhardt. She would also still take fair damage from roadhog and reaper. This would increase her overall resistance without making her "indestructible and without counters" again.

----- Fusion cannons. Ah the fusion cannons damage nerf. That hurt me. D.va is an extremly close range fighter, now with a !@#$ gun at close range. I can only compare her with reaper, tracer and roadhog, since their "ideal figthing range" is similar. Their damage is huge because it has severe damage fallof, and they are get in get out fighters. D.va's current damage is bordering lame, and also has severe damage fallof. I don't think that had to be nerfed.
Once d.va dives, she's not only fully commited to the fight, she's also very vulnerable. Her good damage output was an ideal compensation for her lack of mobility and impossibility to use her shield at the same time.
Her excess of armor during her overpowered days made her damage look too high (she wouldn't die, so she could keep shooting forever). Before, she could dive in, try a fight, and dive out, because her damage was high enough that you could use the window between boosters to try an attempt a kill. Much like tracer can blink in, shoot and blink out, reaper can teleport in, shoot and ghost form out, and roadhog can just hook anyone to perfect range and one shot them.
A comparision with winston is not perfectly fair. When he jumps in, he can put his shield up, and fight with the shield for a longer time. He's isolated from external damage and can even use the shield walls to block damage from his dive target. D.va can't do that, she has to either matrix or shoot.
The old damage was never overpowered.
https://img.fireden.net/vg/image/1465/76/1465766221131.png
I aggree with the suggestions on OP. Either make her damage higher again, so she can be a better close range fighter like the others, or decrease falloff distance and increase precision, so she can take advantage of her movement and use her positioning to outplay and outdamage her targets. Personally I perfer having more close range damage, so she can once again do good damage against tanks and slow moving targets that are unfortunate to be too close. Range on a tank is a very delicate thing since they have so much health. They are not supposed to be sniping people from a distance. Orisa's gun compensates that by being projectile and not hitscan, and zarya's by the charging mechanic. Also, both of them are more fragile tanks in terms of health with only 400hp.

----- As some final words, now that we have "mercy back on meta", there's something that always bugged me when ressurecting d.va, as both a mercy player and a d.va player, is that she doesnt ressurect as a tank like the others. Mercy's ressurect is already a tricky thing, and very often can lead to insta death if you are on the wrong spot.
For d.va it's worse, since she resurrects with only 150hp, and you have to wait the invulnerability to pass to recall your meka, making you an immobile target that can be interrupted by many things in the game. Meanwhile, all the other tanks can use their shields and habilities as soon the invulnerability wears off.
I know flavor wise it makes no sense to ressurect a human as a mecha. My idea was to have the recall animation to happen automatically as soon as she's ressurected, so when the invulnerability wears off she's a full tank like the others, or at least give her the opportunity to suit up during invul time.

~ Here are my toughts. From all the things I said here, I'd like people to pay extra attention on my idea to receive reduced crit damage. I want to see what others think about that. It feels like a way more fair balance than just "more armor less armor more health less health"

Cheers


I really like the crit reduction idea
Looks a more reasonable change than just adding armor, since armor reduces all damage
Bump. People need to know the plight of waifu.
Rip d.va rawr ecks dee
03/24/2017 03:59 PMPosted by Arandmoor
In short: Your feedback is valuable. Your fear-mongering is not.


Okay.

To a certain extent you are correct: virtually all claims about D.Va from players will be anecdotal, and due to the self-selective natures of both this thread and the forums in general, we're not going to be able to provide 100% accurate feedback nor can we speak for any portion of the playerbase other than our very own persons. Blizzard has a lot of statistics they can reference, and they don't share that with us because [reasons] and that gives them a much wider perspective that we lack. Yes.

However, we have analytical tools of our own, such as theory-crafting (e.g. Slade's 4,200-word post) and statistical analysis (comparing D.Va's survivability against certain heroes based on numerical values) which we can use to augment the most important element we have that Blizzard does NOT have: our experience. The reason this thread has gone on for so long and garnered so much support is that people aren't having as much fun with D.Va anymore. They ripped the core element of her playstyle--diving--out of her by making the changes they did, and we don't like that. She IS garbage-tier at diving, because nobody fears her and everyone can fight her. She IS viable at off-tanking, which none of us want to do (and she's debatable at that). Blizzard made changes because [reasons], it changed how she could be played, and the players hate it. Statistics won't help them with that, and the forums are the only way that they can figure that out.

And here is why Slade and I and others have continued this for so long: Blizzard has given no indication that they understand us or even listen to us. The posts Geoff made that are quoted on page 1 even imply that they DON'T understand us because they misrepresent what we are asking for and indicate future changes that are directly CONTRARY to what everyone is asking for. They have given no signs of hearing us, understanding us, or caring about us, and seem to be relying on the hope that if they ignore us long enough we will go away.

We will not. We want recognition not only that they know we exist, but that they understand our problems with her current design and their plans for her. So we will keep this up.

EDIT: Clarified an argument.
03/24/2017 03:56 PMPosted by SifTheAbyss
03/24/2017 03:52 PMPosted by FlamingToast
I hope this one can cap just as quickly as the last one! Again, thanks for your resilience!


So far it's 1 capped megathread per day in the last days, if it goes on like this we'll get up to 30 by the tuesday just before Easter... I'd say it wouldn't be a nice view if the devs ingored them that far.


its picking up in speed because overwatch central posted a video on it i think
03/24/2017 03:35 PMPosted by Enigmaniac
I never did feel like caving to the worst case scenario my head could justify: Dva's nerfing to make a niche happen for Orisa. That's the kind of noob mistake that destroys careers in game design, and blizzard for all it's flaws has a HUGE investment in analysis of design.


I don't see her last nerf as having anything to do with Orisa. IMO, if you go with Occam's Razor, then the simplest reason for the nerf was exactly what Geoff said it was: She was dealing too much damage, and was surviving dives she should not have been.

In that case, his assessment is also correct from their perspective. D'Va is a dive tank. That means she's supposed to dive in and be tank support for a dive comp, or dive a lone enemy and stand a good chance of winning the engagement. That's how they designed her. That's what she's meant to be doing from blizzard's perspective.

The reason his response was "the character you describe based on how she was being played is a different character completely" is because, based on her intended function, it is a different character. The post he was responding to was describing an overwatch character by playstyle that was *not* D.Va. They were describing an offensive dive character. Not a tank. (to be fair, it's a dive character I would totally play)

I don't think they nerfed D.Va to make room for Orisa. They fill completely different roles. Orisa is a main tank with the ability to zone. D.Va is a tank purpose-built to tank for divers. Orisa, by her very nature, cannot dive. She just doesn't have the mobility to do what D.Va does.

That's not to say that Orisa couldn't open up room for D.Va changes once the new metagame has stabilized. Now that the overall design landscape has changed, D.Va might need to move a little. If she has so much value using DM to extend barrier lifespan that she shouldn't dive anymore, expect a nerf to DM in favor of her div-tanking kit. The game will continue to change even if the characters don't (see: Reaper)

Suggestion: Allow DM to empty opponent's ranged weapons of ammo.

* Reduce maximum duration of DM from 4 seconds to 2.
* Keep regeneration of DM at 10 seconds from empty to full (I think that's correct. 5 seconds of rest for 1 "use" sounds right, plus it will keep "pulsing" a thing)
* If an opponent is in DM's area for more than 1 second, DM will destroy all ammunition in the weapon. This prevents the weapon from being fired until it has been reloaded, and puts the character's ability to "reload" on cooldown for 1.5 seconds (adds 1.5 seconds to their reload animation).

This makes using DM to protect a shield very, very not valuable, but it makes her a near "I WIN" button for skilled dive comps (gives her 2.5 seconds minimum to shoot without DM'd opponents being able to respond with their M1 or M2 attacks.)
03/24/2017 05:13 PMPosted by to0ty
its picking up in speed because overwatch central posted a video on it i think


And trolls. People somehow think that by using up post space that they'll dilute the argument to impotence. Really, it just makes the opposition look really, really good compared to them.

EDIT: Arandmoor--I really want to respond to the above post, but I don't have the time right now. Remind me later if I seem to have forgotten. Good post.
03/24/2017 04:35 PMPosted by Darsidian
By this logic though, we should be inspecting every post made by pro-DVA posters.
Okay? Go ahead if you want, the more info the better.

03/24/2017 04:35 PMPosted by Darsidian
I'm not sure why this person's opinion is considered more worthwhile, since they're also a console player
Who said it's more worthwhile? It's the only one I saw in this thread stating a console player at high rank finds her underwhelming. I can't remember reading another one, ever.

03/24/2017 04:35 PMPosted by Darsidian
Picking on people for their platform, ELO, or, dare I say, playtime isn't necessarily a good avenue to go down.
"picking on" is not what I'm doing. I'm merely analyzing profiles of each negative poster because I noticed the common factor that ties them all, that being at least one of the 3 instances I mentioned.
This is relevant, very relevant if you ask me. It's important, because ignoring this only leads to a bad balance. I literally just mentioned that console seems to have a problem with pharmercy that for the most part does not exist on PC.

However, it seems like no matter how I put it, some people just won't understand. Touch the "rank/console" topic and someone will go WHO TOUCHED MY CHILD?.

03/24/2017 04:35 PMPosted by Darsidian
ESPECIALLY considering that many of the pro-DVA posters have made it plain that they don't play DVA nearly as much any more.
And why do you think is that? Could it be out of frustration from being unable to do anything AND being raged at from the team for playing an underpowered hero? It couldn't possibly be, right?
Right now, (in high ranks) she's only played by hardcore D.Va mains and by others as a last point stagger.
Hi all, putting my two cents in.
I've played D.Va since the beta, her character design was cool and so was her playstyle. I placed in S1 (Ranking at 43 Duo-queuing with a friend), but since then have more or less avoided Comp in favor of Quickplay (My friend isn't interested in Comp, and Solo-queuing comp doesn't really interest me).

When she got her buffs in November, I was really excited for the speed boost, but didn't understand their reasoning for the hp boost. I started surviving a lot of engagements with <100hp left.

Fast forward to her Nerfs in January, I heard about the worries and concerns everyone had from the PTR, and once they hit live I immediately noticed a huge drop in survivability. As Meedup mentioned, people actually had to learn how to counter D.Va, and once they had, the armour/health swap put her in a bad spot, especially coupled with her reduced damage output.

Since then I've started playing D.Va less and less, she's not fun to play anymore. Can I do well with her? If there's a main healer pocketing me for the whole game, yes. Otherwise I find myself out of mech far more often than I used to, and can't support my team properly. I feel like a drain to the team rather than an asset.

Similarly, as Mercy (my most played hero now), D.Vas on my team absolutely melt if I'm not focusing on them all the time. The moment I turn to top up someone else on the team, *pop* goes the mech.
Jeff's on the forums, think he'll acknowledge us?

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