State of McCree: Continually Abjured by Developers

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03/31/2017 04:52 AMPosted by NotMcCree
03/31/2017 01:17 AMPosted by Sk1ppeR
McCree has insane skill ceiling and everybody not seeing this is a lameass noob and needs to git gut. You could be top 500 for all I care, but if you claim McCree is bad, you're a trash.

Except that, you missed the part where I openly agree that he is not wildly underpowered. Please, plug your toaster in and take a warm bath with it.


Ugh ... as if you are the only person posting in this thread. Some complexes you have there.

And you got nothing on me calling your statistics "thesis" a load of bull!@#$.

We don't want wild balance swings, but we are okay with so many major kit/role changes in under three months? Tank shredder McCree (6/2016), damage reduced/useless McCree (6/2016), 35m McCree (7/2016), animation cancel removed (hidden nerf, 8/2016), Deadeye nerfed (9/2016); and the present day McCree - who hasn't evolved with the game. This is blatant, clear balancing bias.


Genji hasn't received a single bug fix either and instead has been only nerfed. Are you going to claim that Genji hasn't evolved with the game, or are we cherry picking here? I'm sure there are more heroes that didn't get touched since launch but get actively played. (E.g. Tracer, the character with the lowest HP pool even after countless other DPS buffs to other heroes.)

If McCree was half as broken as you claim him to be, you wouldn't have gotten your current rank. Kappa.
03/31/2017 04:52 AMPosted by NotMcCree
...
Except that, you missed the part where I openly agree that he is not wildly underpowered. Please, plug your toaster in and take a warm bath with it.


Ugh ... as if you are the only person posting in this thread. Some complexes you have there.

And you got nothing on me calling your statistics "thesis" a load of bull!@#$.

We don't want wild balance swings, but we are okay with so many major kit/role changes in under three months? Tank shredder McCree (6/2016), damage reduced/useless McCree (6/2016), 35m McCree (7/2016), animation cancel removed (hidden nerf, 8/2016), Deadeye nerfed (9/2016); and the present day McCree - who hasn't evolved with the game. This is blatant, clear balancing bias.


Genji hasn't received a single bug fix either and instead has been only nerfed. Are you going to claim that Genji hasn't evolved with the game, or are we cherry picking here?

"You are a doctor with a medical degree and I am a regular person with no degree, but my medical opinion is just as important as yours"
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Ugh ... as if you are the only person posting in this thread. Some complexes you have there.

And you got nothing on me calling your statistics "thesis" a load of bull!@#$.

<span class="truncated">...</span>

Genji hasn't received a single bug fix either and instead has been only nerfed. Are you going to claim that Genji hasn't evolved with the game, or are we cherry picking here?

"You are a doctor with a medical degree and I am a regular person with no degree, but my medical opinion is just as important as yours"


I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that I needed a medical PhD to express opinion over game balance. Nor having to be a game designer. But hey, the OP is neither too, so, i don't know

But hey, my McCree main friend that I play together with is actually a doctor, so if you've got any issues I can bring it up to him smh

P.S: Yes, he also happens to agree with me that McCree is fine.
03/31/2017 05:15 AMPosted by Sk1ppeR
...
"You are a doctor with a medical degree and I am a regular person with no degree, but my medical opinion is just as important as yours"


I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that I needed a medical PhD to express opinion over game balance. Nor having to be a game designer. But hey, the OP is neither too, so, i don't know

But hey, my McCree main friend that I play together with is actually a doctor, so if you've got any issues I can bring it up to him smh

P.S: Yes, he also happens to agree with me that McCree is fine.

No need to even keep arguing. You're obviously a troll.

Just downvote and move on people.
<span class="truncated">...</span>

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that I needed a medical PhD to express opinion over game balance. Nor having to be a game designer. But hey, the OP is neither too, so, i don't know

But hey, my McCree main friend that I play together with is actually a doctor, so if you've got any issues I can bring it up to him smh

P.S: Yes, he also happens to agree with me that McCree is fine.

No need to even keep arguing. You're obviously a troll.

Just downvote and move on people.


Perfect argument. Very supportive toward your agenda. It adds to this thread perfectly. Much weight

wow

wow

It's funny you think thumbs down, especially in this forum in particular are worth a damn :D

I stated facts before McCree wannabes started with the personal attack. I'm open for a discussion, but you are presenting your story like a major ahole. I don't give a rats !@# about your opinion as long as it's a pointless post.

Let's not forget that NONE of these "PLIZ BUFF MCCREE" threads are being clear whether we are talking about Console or PC.

My viewpoint is that of the McCree on PC. I have no idea how he is on console but I can imagine he's trash due to the required accuracy which you can't get with a controller. But I'll refrain on further console comments due to the fact that I'm clueless there.

Not to mention that you are overzealous in your requests for buffs folks. It's a pity you don't see it. All your changes will make him a must pick which will secure an overnerf and we're back to square one. Flashbang has no logical reason to stop momentum, you give hook as an example? Hook doesn't break momentum, it slows it down. I have personal vids where I get hooked midair but i fall behind the payload and break the hook, happy to share if you insist.

Rather, do other changes. Nerfing Ana's damage was a nice change. Now she doesn't compete with McCree to takeout Pharah. Running double hitscan alongside ana to counter pharmercy is actually viable these days.

A lot of you don't seem to have a basic understanding of the game.

Your issue is that stunned targets have stunned animation? Well sit on your !@#$ing %^- and learn those stupid animations. Seagull has stated multiple times on his stream that learning hitboxes and animation is huge part of what separates a good player from a bad player. I may not be a "doctor" but I'm pretty sure Seagull is one.

The coolest thing about computer games is that everyone has it the same. It's not just you who has stunned enemies in stunned animations. But they do manage to learn that !@#$ and work with it. Every single player in this game has it like this. The good ones seem to manage it.

Now be a good forum boi and ad hominem me again. See how much I care.

Currently we have the most flexible meta anyway. Dive comps work, triple tank works, 2+2+2 works, 3+2 works. If we make McCree a must-pick it will all go away, simple as that.

how can you successfully execute a flashbang and fan-the-hammer combo with a 0.70 total stun time, a 0.30 recovery window where you cannot shoot, and a 0.67 total cast time for fan-the-hammer?


Works everytime for me.
03/31/2017 04:52 AMPosted by NotMcCree
...
Except that, you missed the part where I openly agree that he is not wildly underpowered. Please, plug your toaster in and take a warm bath with it.


Ugh ... as if you are the only person posting in this thread. Some complexes you have there.

And you got nothing on me calling your statistics "thesis" a load of bull!@#$.

We don't want wild balance swings, but we are okay with so many major kit/role changes in under three months? Tank shredder McCree (6/2016), damage reduced/useless McCree (6/2016), 35m McCree (7/2016), animation cancel removed (hidden nerf, 8/2016), Deadeye nerfed (9/2016); and the present day McCree - who hasn't evolved with the game. This is blatant, clear balancing bias.


Genji hasn't received a single bug fix either and instead has been only nerfed. Are you going to claim that Genji hasn't evolved with the game, or are we cherry picking here? I'm sure there are more heroes that didn't get touched since launch but get actively played. (E.g. Tracer, the character with the lowest HP pool even after countless other DPS buffs to other heroes.)

If McCree was half as broken as you claim him to be, you wouldn't have gotten your current rank. Kappa.

Genji only had his ultimate nerfed. The other stuff were bug fixes. Not sure what other nerfs you are referring to.
<span class="truncated">...</span>

Ugh ... as if you are the only person posting in this thread. Some complexes you have there.

And you got nothing on me calling your statistics "thesis" a load of bull!@#$.

<span class="truncated">...</span>

Genji hasn't received a single bug fix either and instead has been only nerfed. Are you going to claim that Genji hasn't evolved with the game, or are we cherry picking here? I'm sure there are more heroes that didn't get touched since launch but get actively played. (E.g. Tracer, the character with the lowest HP pool even after countless other DPS buffs to other heroes.)

If McCree was half as broken as you claim him to be, you wouldn't have gotten your current rank. Kappa.

Genji only had his ultimate nerfed. The other stuff were bug fixes. Not sure what other nerfs you are referring to.


Animation cancel combo wasn't a bug fix, as a result swift strike no longer interrupts melee
Swift strike does no damage to traps/mines (It's a 50 damage attack, mind you)
Triple jump got removed. Triple jump was the only thing that "fixed" the wonky wall climb (which still doesn't work properly)
Shortening weeb stick's range and introducing ghost swings

I'm sure I'm missing some.

But yeah edgeboost was a bug. It was cool tho
Such a good threat. Thank you for making it. As a McCree main, I couldn't agree more & I applaud you for taking so much time putting all that information together.
so much drama and accusations. I am still really questioning how you expect a developer of Overwatch to react to a topic like this. I do hope you get a blue response, just so I can see you and Jeff get into a **** fight over this, because that is the only possible result from this topic. ignoring you is prolly the best career move he can possibly make.

McCree is fine. There are issue with the balance of this game making some heroes more useful than others but buffing McCree is just going to hurt flankers. The problem is not with him. You basically acknowledge this yourself as your own OP becomes increasingly focused on Soldier 76.
03/31/2017 06:00 AMPosted by Sk1ppeR
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Genji only had his ultimate nerfed. The other stuff were bug fixes. Not sure what other nerfs you are referring to.


Animation cancel combo wasn't a bug fix, as a result swift strike no longer interrupts melee
Swift strike does no damage to traps/mines (It's a 50 damage attack, mind you)
Triple jump got removed. Triple jump was the only thing that "fixed" the wonky wall climb (which still doesn't work properly)
Shortening weeb stick's range and introducing ghost swings

I'm sure I'm missing some.

But yeah edgeboost was a bug. It was cool tho

All of what you listed were bugs and examples of things Genji was not intended to do.
I see Sk1pper is running their mouth again.

Anyways, I like the proposals as usual.

For one, the range is starting to become a real issue. As Pharah becomes more apparent and seemingly no nerfs are in store for her, it'll always be a gamble to shoot a Pharah down from the skies with pinpoint accuracy before you're being hit.

The flashbang just needs to go, outright. Spumwack made a good point when he said that a cowboy doesn't whip out a flashbang just like that. Kicking up sand? Now that FITS.
And here's the thing. Because sand would actually disorient you for a bit, this would give the devs no other option but to make it actually stun properly so you can secure a kill.
If Roadhog can still Hook > LMB you in ONE hit, Tracer can effectively 1-clip you, Soldier can 1-clip, Bastion goes rambo...
Heck.
There's a lot of one-hit combos in the game that I think outright shouldn't exist, but know what they do better than McCree? They can secure the kill faster.
So giving this "Sand Kick" move a full second stun, an 8 sec. CD, and the stun timer only going off when they hit the ground... Doesn't sound too unfair with what we have in the game right now.

Fan the Hammer should see a bit more use.
Seriously. I've made this point before, but NO MOVE in the game should be so luck-related. NO other hero in the game has that gamble element to them other than McCree.
Not just in his flashbang, but in one of his friggin' core moves.
When I unload my clip, I don't want to worry about whether or not my bullets will ALL hit. I should KNOW for 100 percent sure that all my bullets hit.
It's really become a problem to the point of no longer being fun. It's not supposed to be a gamble. It's a trademark cowboy move. Give it the respect it deserves.

Those are just my two cents.

And now, I'm off to play more McCree.

And always remember to #FixHerCowboy
In my opinion Mccree needs rework. He is boring to play, his mechanic is dull and feels silly. His skill gap between casual and pro players is extreme, the biggest in the game... making he a total !@#$ on casual gameplay because he can't be strong otherwise it will be terribly godly on pro games.
#fixhimplease
03/31/2017 06:17 AMPosted by Nostari
In my opinion Mccree needs rework. He is boring to play, his mechanic is dull and feels silly. His skill gap between casual and pro players is extreme, the biggest in the game... making he a total !@#$ on casual gameplay because he can't be strong otherwise it will be terribly godly on pro games.


Not boring but... frustrating, yes. Useless against most today's metas, unless you have a 6 man premade with 2 tanks and 2 healers who have your back.

I think the "S76 does everything he does, just BETTER" is the biggest problem about him. McCree is meant to be a duelist that cannot be matched, and he used to be that at one point, but he just.. isn't anymore. You flashbang someone, accidentally miss your headshot and... end up with your foe escaping, and yourself looking like a fool.
And his ult is definitely a huge problem. It's good and deadly in theory, but in practice.... it's pretty useless, and you can't execute it at any time, unlike S76. I mean - you can, but you'll probably gonna end up getting killed, while not eliminating a SINGLE target.
03/31/2017 05:21 AMPosted by Sk1ppeR
The coolest thing about computer games is that everyone has it the same. It's not just you who has stunned enemies in stunned animations. But they do manage to learn that !@#$ and work with it. Every single player in this game has it like this. The good ones seem to manage it.


Just because the good ones seem to manage it, doesn't mean that McCree is well balanced. When even the pros like Taimou or IDDQD say that McCree isn't as valuable as Soldier, even though they are gods as him, something's not right.

03/31/2017 05:21 AMPosted by Sk1ppeR
Currently we have the most flexible meta anyway. Dive comps work, triple tank works, 2+2+2 works, 3+2 works. If we make McCree a must-pick it will all go away, simple as that.


The "most flexible meta" with Pharah and Soldier in every game... The problem isn't that McCree might become a mustpick, it's that currently there are 2 must picks and the rest of the dps are not as valuable as them for the team, even if played well. Sombra and Tracer might be alright, McCree and Reaper certainly aren't. Personally, I'd just like to get some feedback or answers from Blizzard. There is no communication at all when it comes to these characters, unlike with Roadhog, Ana or D.Va. Maybe they're to busy working on something else right now but then they could at least say: "Guys we're busy working on that and that right now" or if they aren't say: "We're looking at McCree and Reaper"/"We don't think McCree or Reaper should be changed because..."

What is just kind of frustrating for me is that, like I already said, there's no communication about that AT ALL, as it used to be with other characters.
Blizzard why do you hate Mcree?! His ult is broken and his sustainability is so awful. In fact if you don't hit your shots with pinpoint accuracy of a GOD you are punished so hard. So hard, that at most times a mercy or zen can win a 1on1 duel despite his character being the "best" duelist in the game. I'm getting so sick and tired that if you don't play Godlike with Mcree, you are punished so hard. Soldier is so damn easy and if you miss shots, his kit allows you to still be effective. Its complete garbage the way he is setup at the moment.

Also FIX the bug where i flashbang stun a roadhog but he still manages to hook me?! LIKE WTF!
Awesome post, but some of your suggestions are bad. McCree shouldnt have Ironclad in any way.

And his roll should be 6s, not 5 because it will make him more faster from your suggestions.

6m for Roll should stay, as it gives reasonable distance to dosge and atay on target in teamfights.

Flashbang should be 8s Cooldown, and should stay for a whole 1s. Getting in the face of a flanker is already risky atleast we make sure to payed from the risk.

Make his melee look like throwing Flashbang, to bait Genji Deflects and such.

Make fan the hammer on hold, so we can for example hold fan the hammer and stop after 4 bullets were shot.
McCree has never been bad. Reaper has never been bad. These threads always act like their limited viability is because of them being bad heroes, but realistically it's because soldier does the jobs of both these heroes better than they can do it themselves. Soldier just needs a massive nerf or even full revert to his pre buff State. Both McCree and reaper will come back then. This whole movement is just silly. McCree and reaper are some of the strongest heroes in the game, the problem is simply soldier and it has always been soldier.
Just because the good ones seem to manage it, doesn't mean that McCree is well balanced. When even the pros like Taimou or IDDQD say that McCree isn't as valuable as Soldier, even though they are gods as him, something's not right.


You should always take pro's opinion with a grain of salt. They have been wrong on numerous occasions. Case in point, they still play the !@#$ out of McCree, especially when they need to ... carry

03/31/2017 06:27 AMPosted by SunsetSniper
The "most flexible meta" with Pharah and Soldier in every game... The problem isn't that McCree might become a mustpick, it's that currently there are 2 must picks and the rest of the dps are not as valuable as them for the team, even if played well. Sombra and Tracer might be alright, McCree and Reaper certainly aren't. Personally, I'd just like to get some feedback or answers from Blizzard. There is no communication at all when it comes to these characters, unlike with Roadhog, Ana or D.Va. Maybe they're to busy working on something else right now but then they could at least say: "Guys we're busy working on that and that right now" or if they aren't say: "We're looking at McCree and Reaper"/"We don't think McCree or Reaper should be changed because..."


Maybe it's like this in low gold and I don't mean this offensively. I've heard the rumors that mediocre Pharah can %^-* on everyone due to the fact she's super elusive to hit at this skill level. The reason you are not getting feedback from Blizzard, after all these threads (which from what I gather are post limit locks?) is that the opinion they have is an unpopular one but most likely backed up by good amount of DATA. On your other point, no, soldier and pharmercy are not a must-pick. The dive comp might have a soldier but it also might not have a soldier but instead to rely on Genji/Tracer/Winston to stir some !@#$ up.

03/31/2017 06:47 AMPosted by HailFall
McCree has never been bad. Reaper has never been bad. These threads always act like their limited viability is because of them being bad heroes, but realistically it's because soldier does the jobs of both these heroes better than they can do it themselves. Soldier just needs a massive nerf or even full revert to his pre buff State. Both McCree and reaper will come back then. This whole movement is just silly. McCree and reaper are some of the strongest heroes in the game, the problem is simply soldier and it has always been soldier.


Lul, common sense.

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