D.Va's Current State: Discussion Megathread UNCAPPED

General Discussion
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4/18/17 UPDATE

This thread and the actual OP made by me in post 3 are pretty dated. Skip to page 26 for the newest stuff. The OP has some interesting info in it still, but just about all of this thread up until the new comments on page 26 are mostly awful and troll filled and most of the comments and hate are about the thread itself. That is why I ended these in the first place, and would have preferred them stay that way.

But now these are uncapped, so just skip to that page and go from there.
Highly Rated
D.va is fine. It's all good.
4/18/17 UPDATE

This thread and the actual OP made by me in post 3 are pretty dated. Skip to page 26 for the newest stuff. The OP has some interesting info in it still, but just about all of this thread up until the new comments on page 26 are mostly awful and troll filled and most of the comments and hate are about the thread itself. That is why I ended these in the first place, and would have preferred them stay that way.

But now these are uncapped, so just skip to that page and go from there.


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In regards to Jeff's latest comment about D.Va in the Gamespot interview, I hope people realize he attacked a strawman that was created by the "anti-D.Va" crowd. "Pro-D.Va" people have never talked about pro-rates being a representative of her en masse, and have actually encouraged against it because it is not very representative of the game for normal players, as Jeff himself said. In fact, there are links in this OP showing proof of that.

Full Interview: https://www.gamespot.com/articles/overwatch-director-talks-abandoned-cat-hero-patchi/1100-6449176/

D.Va comment is under the picture of Genji.

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Tom the absolute GOD on "She is fine" comments. Please, just link this to every comment of this nature from now on. Also notice how he linked to the mega's AGAIN!

04/04/2017 11:16 AMPosted by Tom Powers
Topics like these are not condoned, as they do nothing to contribute to the constructive discussion surrounding the current state of that hero. To further clarify, threads made with the sole purpose of inciting unrest will not be tolerated. With that said, if you have feedback or opinions on D.Va, please share them constructively in this topic [url="https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20753756807?page=25"]here[/url]


The link does not work here because of how I had to format this to make it actually quote, since there is no quote button on locked threads. Click Toms name in the quote here and it will take you to his actual comment where you can then see the working link.

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Tom's blessing once again: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20753895585?page=3#post-56

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I wanted to list the most frequently suggested and seemingly most popular, agreed on, and reasonable fixes that I have seen from every post about D.Va. The current problems with her are her survivability and damage dealing capabilities. These suggestions are listed in no particular order.

NOTE: Many people presented some problems with the poll that was previously here, in which I agreed about. Thus, the poll is now gone. If you have an opinion about ANYTHING, including something about these choices or why you like one or if you don't like these and have something of your own, just leave a comment. It's definitely for the best for everyone when explantion can be given.

Option 1:
Full revert to S2 state, then add movement speed buff and (obviously) keep DM fix. This means her stat values would be:
  • 400 Armor / 100 normal HP

  • Fusion Cannons:
    • 8 pellets per shot. Each pellet does 3 damage.

    Note: These are the same values she has had her entire existence in the game, and they were never considered too strong and were in fact considered weak. This is why they were buffed back in November. Many players complaints about D.Va was that she was too hard to kill and many D.Va players even said she did not need the original HP buff. So, the solution is to just never give her the HP buff and see where she stands, since the speed buff was seen by just about everyone as the real buff she received and was something that players had long asked for. If, for whatever reason, she is too weak, then you can give her 50 normal HP or shrink her critbox. Just something extremely small.

    Personal comment: This are the changes that, I personally, agree with the most. These would literally be my dream patch notes. I also believe they would be best because they allow her to be weaker versus high damage per shot characters, but not so weak that she is "bad" like she was before because she will have the speed buff. It should also help to avoid the "She has no weaknesses" argument that some people have said while also allowing her to do her job properly, while also making her less of a chore on healers. There are more reasons I could list, but to try and keep this somewhat short, this seems like the most "win/win situation" for everyone to me.


Option 2:
This change simply improves off of her current values assuming the devs absolutely refuse to do no reverts to anything ever. The stats are:
  • 300 Armor / 300 normal HP

  • Fusion Cannons:
    • Tighten spread
    • Improve falloff distance


    Note: These changes have been highly suggested by many because it avoids reverts and helps alleviate her issues without actually increasing D.Va's DPS. Geoff did state that he did want her DPS to be slightly lower with her nerfs, but just about everyone seems to be in the boat of "The change brought a lot more problems that paper did not show." These problems spawn from the fact that most pellets end up missing smaller targets due to her spread, and because of the lessened damage, she does a lot less overall damage to anything that isn't a huge tank. Pair this with D.Va's harsh falloff, and you end up barely damaging any normally sized characters that are well within D.Va's effective range. This only worsens as the character shrink in size. This has basically introduced D.Va's past problem that the speed buff was supposed to fix, and that is that enemies could simply walk away from D.Va to avoid death, while also killing her in the process.

    Pair this with her new HP values, and just about no one has to fear D.Va anymore when she approaches them because they simply have to just back up a little bit and will easily kill her before she even places them near critical HP. There are plenty of stories and even video's and streams of Master and GM D.Va users being severely harmed and even losing their MEKA to characters like Lucio and Mercy from full HP. I have personally seen and experienced this myself as well. A lot of characters don't even need to walk away because they can strafe and dodge the D.Va's attacks and simply kill her quickly because of her unmissable critbox that is right in their face. A D.Va with extremely good tracking can alliterative this issue a little, but even pro's struggle to keep up this type of performance with D.Va's damage intake.

    A lot of this here was more of a tangent on general problems, but both changes aim to fix these problems. So I felt the need to go a little bit more in-depth here with this one because it is "new" to D.Va, as in it has never been used before.


Option 3:
This is not more of a change on it's own, as it is more of a suggestion by many that you(the devs) could mix and match these changes. Stuff like 300AR/300HP and cannon revert or 400AR/100HP and option 2 cannon changes. Or you could just test some of these individual changes, like just a gun or an HP change one at a time for the sake of making very small changes. Many, including myself, personally believe that she would need the combo changes to be really effective and actually restore D.Va to actually be the D.Va we all know and have used since launch again.

Another thing that I know the large majority of players do not want are any reworks to her. The majority seems to strongly agree that her abilities and passives are fine where they currently are and really the only things needed to make D.Va not weak again are simple number changes to her HP and weapons. Those are what made her strong before, they are what made her weak now, so now they are what can make her strong again. We really just want a middle ground to be reached between her November pre-buff and post-buff versions. What we currently have is overall weaker than her pre-buff self, which is why most players are still going on about her and why people are getting increasingly concerned for her character.

I personally strongly agree with this as well, and if I am honest, I would be pretty upset and saddened by any reworks to her. To me, it feels like changing things that aren't broken is just trying to do more work than necessary that has a high chance of introducing more balance problems for D.Va without much fixing her original problems and it risks straying her further from the D.Va us players know and enjoy, which is something she really does not need to risk at this point and time, because that is the main reason players are currently upset.

Anyways, these suggestions of course do not speak for everyone, these are just the changes that I personally have seen suggested way more and are agreed on the most out of everything I have read. I have read every single comment in these megathreads alone and have fully read many many more posts in full about her as well as just discussing her from people in game and on other sites and services like Reddit and Discord, and this is what I have seen the most. Obviously I would except you to read some of these comments yourself and see for yourself instead of just taking my word for it, but the purpose of this edit is to just summarize and shrink things down so if you don't want to read hundred and hundreds of comments, you can just look here.

I hope you really understand what players want, and I thank you for the read.

Strawpoll data from a few days up for those curious: https://gyazo.com/cb7d2754e92628eb8056ecec1676f9f7

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Just a quick bit for those of you calling these threads spam. Realize that these threads only exist 1 at a time and have served to condense much feedback into one spot which has reduced spam by quite a bit. This is basically one never-ending thread and seemingly why the mods lets it exist. If it were spam the mods would have removed it by now instead of removing all of the comments from the last thread's first few pages of people saying to "stop because this is spam." If you hate seeing the thread so much, then don't comment. This thread chain has actually gained more likes in the past few threads and many new people have left comments because I read every single comment that is made in these. The last thread was also one of the quickest capping threads yet. It's not some "echo chamber of the same people commenting" as many would like to believe.

Also, here is a message from the community manager, Tom Powers:


Hi guys,

All discussion regarding the balance of D.Va and her current state should be allocated here. This will help us garner and consolidate your feedback and opinions.

Thank you.


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I SOMEHOW FORGOT TO ADD GEOFF'S INFAMOUS RIPTIRE COMMENTS, THE SHOT HEARD AROUND THE FORUMS. I SWORE I ADDED THEM BUT SOMEONE POINTED OUT I DIDN'T, SO HERE THEY ARE.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20752559736?page=26#post-502

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20752559736?page=27#post-536

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NEWEST COMMENTS BY GEOFF ABOUT ANA REVERTS.

03/08/2017 06:22 PMPosted by Geoff Goodman
Ana had the biggest changes in this patch, and upon testing, feedback, and talking about it a ton internally, we decided to pull back on the nerfs a bit for this patch. The damage reduction on her weapon is significant, but if this ends up not being enough we can re-visit some further tuning. We don't want to swing her balance too wildly within a single patch.


We don't want to swing her balance too wildly within a single patch.


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LATEST COMMENTS BY GEOFF ABOUT D.VA:

03/03/2017 11:49 AMPosted by Geoff Goodman
I have talked about D.Va changes in the past, but unfortunately it just isn't what people want to hear. I understand people are frustrated that she lost a bit of her 'bully' nature before, and really want to play her that way again. The reality is she was too good at too many things and something had to give.

I know that, given the choice, many people would sacrifice power from her tools like Defense Matrix if it allowed her to be played in a more super aggressive role like she did for a time. Overall the concept of a giant mech wreaking havok and dealing a ton of damage as an offense or defense hero is a cool one, but D.Va just isn't built for that. That said, clearly there is a strong desire for that kind of hero and it certainly would be sweet to make another mech-type hero in that space, so that's something for us to consider looking forward.


03/03/2017 02:32 PMPosted by Geoff Goodman
03/03/2017 12:18 PMPosted by Pickles

So, Geoff. Can you actually clarify what D.Va's purpose is?

Shes designed as a dive tank. But she cant actually dive anymore.

Unless shes actually supposed to stand behind reins shield and take pressure off?
In that case, why would you pick D.Va over say, Orisa? Or Zarya?

Its certainly not for damage, both outclass her. Shes not even going to be the best at taking down shields, unlimited ammo or not, Orisa is much better at doing that too.

Whats her purpose? I think if you were to actually clarify it would help a lot.

From a design point of view, what do you see her job as?


She can still dive and harass, especially if she jumps in with allies and helps protect them. Before the latest changes she could fly into almost any situation, regardless of which heroes she faced, deal a bunch of damage and fly out. Fighting against her felt terrible as it often felt like you had no options to beat her. We considered raising the cooldown on her Flight instead, but made her a lot less interesting to play, especially considering firing her weapon slows her down.

You can still do that, but now you have to be more careful about when you go in and who you are facing.


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This thread is just an extension from the other threads since they hit their cap and discussion has not stopped. This is used to keep the CONSTRUCTIVE discussion going so the current 8.5k comments in this thread alone won't be lost to the void. Even though some of them deserve it.

Another title change has been made because D.Va's nerfs have been in place for a while now, so the discussion has more or less migrated from being about her current state instead if talking strictly about her nerfs.

I'm not going to quote all of the text from the previous threads' OP's this time, so if you are interested in reading what they have to provide, as well as all of the previous discussion held in them, then the links are below.



Again, the previous threads have good info and discussion in them, both in the parent and comments, but I don't want to go on a huge quote fest again, so if you care, then I highly recommend you check them out.

Also, i'm going to use the parent post here to link to really good threads about D.Va that others have created and have sank to the bottom, so if you know any very high quality threads about D.Va, link them in the comments and i'll add them to the list!

THE LIST:



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I wanted to quote this beautiful comment by Borshevar. It's getting a little dated because of things like Orisa, but the sentiment still applies with just some small number adjustments.

02/23/2017 10:49 PMPosted by Borshevar
I'm not D.va main, I'm not something else main, I'm a tank main. I was a tank main since the start of the game. I'm not saying tank meta is something good, but currently we have it.

Look at this:
02/23/2017 12:01 PMPosted by Velator
https://public.tableau.com/profile/benjamin.trautman#!/vizhome/OverwatchHeroMetaReport-Season3Review/HeroUsageSeason3

Feel free to check all the reports, not just those starting from 28.11.16.

D.va had ~79% pickrate at her peak. Wow, that's impressive. Overall. But is that impressive during tank meta? Nope. Zarya had ~80% at the same time. Rein had 97%. Those two were always viable. Hog had 52% that time.

Rein didn't drop below 40% pickrate EVER. Zarya didn't drop below 30% EVER.

Now understand what I'm trying to say. I'm a tank player. It's clear that D.va and Winston are very, very situational. Since they're situational, my hero pool is limited to... 3 heroes. I got bored of Rein very quickly just like any sane person. So, I guess, I have 2. I will sometimes play Rein when I think it's necessary, but it's not what I want and I consider that "filling", just like when I pick support when we need a support.

Now... What about hero pool of dps mains? Soldier, pharah, widowmaker, mei, symmetra, tracer, genji - aren't they viable? Isn't this hero pool like 2-3 times bigger than the one of tanks and supports?

Even if we will get a perfect 2-2-2 meta, all tanks will have 200%/5= 40% pickrate, while all dps characters will have 200%/14 = 14,28% pickrate.

Reaper at recent tournaments had 7,64% pickrate, almost 2 times lesser than supposedly perfect pickrate (14,28%), and he is considered to be garbage.

Look at D.va from the same perspective. She had 16,54% pickrate which is 2,4 times lesser than supposedly perfect pickrate (40%).

That's why first of all we need ALL tanks and ALL supports to be viable, and only after that - all dps characters to be viable. I'm not asking to buff D.va because I am/was a D.va main, I ask to buff her and winston because I want diversity. If you will dig through my post history you will also find out that I also want mercy to be buffed. Mccree, too, just because it's obvious even for me that he is trash when compared to soldier. And Reaper, which was supposed to counter tanks but failed to deal with tank meta (you can also call it Ana meta).


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I also wanted to share this comment by LiveSlow about changing D.Va's defense matrix. This comment really extend to all forms of messing with her current abilities or kit, or trying to add new ones before taking the easy fixes for her, which are simple number changes. It's a risk of making D.Va less of what made her D.Va than what she is now, which I am sure no one wants.

Comment: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20753935681?page=25#post-495

I can't quote it because I did not get to it in time before the thread closed, so there's just a link.

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I wanted to quote this absolutely beautiful comment by Tetora. Definitely worth the read.

04/03/2017 12:01 PMPosted by Tetora
A lot of remarks are thrown about. Either parroting previous unenlightened remarks for the sake of jumping on the hate bandwagon, or for the purpose of flaming, or whatever, don't care. There needs to be some clarity here.

D.Va is a tank.

The definition of a tank is very loose in Overwatch. We have six of them now. Each are very different. They each have strengths, and weaknesses.

One common theme occurs amongst five of them: They demand respect. A tank plants down in an area, you have to consider how to approach them. You have to respect that area and the opponents within, because if you don't, you're the one that is dead.

Reinhardt protects everything behind him from most attacks and many ultimates. You could get close or flank to deal with him, but do you really want to be in range of that huge hammer that makes paste of most heroes? Stand and face him and you risk taking a devastating firestrike to the face, or worse yet, a charge. His ultimates build up so very, very fast if he get's those in.

Zarya can protect herself and one ally, but to offset this seeming weakness you have to concern yourself with not giving her charge and having to focus her otherwise - because of the regenerative shields on her hp. She instils a fear of focus fire and can melt faces if you don't handle her right.

Roadhog is a bullet sponge than can self heal through most of the damage you could dish to him. His hook and shoot is capable of eliminating most of the roster in one motion of moves. And he's going to do it while stood out in the open like a boss. You rarely tangle with this monster without back-up.

Orisa can plant its shield, and move independantly from it. It can become immune to so many effects and fusion your face off with fair range. Peeking a corner? It's going to drag you out of it and continue firing. You've got to consider how best to approach it to take it down.

Winston. Oh Winston. In the right hands this is by far the scariest tank of all. He leaps in. A mocking "Hello there!" as he zaps the faces off your jump-damaged supports, squishies and snipers while he dances his bubble, unafraid of the entire enemy team - and leaps back out to safety. When he's not diving in he's a great addition to another tank, as he can plant his bubble and deal with flankers such as Genji or Tracer.

See the theme here? They command respect. They force your team to deal with a situation in a certain way. They control the flow of opposition and mitigate damage while doing so.

So, D.Va?

D.Va, although not "broken" doesn't do this very well. She's difficult to keep healed if she opts to go on the offensive - which she must, as her DM only lasts a short spell, and you don't just stand there waiting for it to recharge.

Her Defense Matrix is good. It is a solid ability. A nice compliment to another barrier tank. It has a huge amount of workarounds, and anyone with a shred of sense doesn't launch their ultimate in the face of, or in close proximity of a D.Va. She isn't blocking a damned thing if she's out of the meka. It's balanced. Safe to say we're happy with it.

She has an unusual kit that suggests her role should be somewhat similar to what Winston did above. Now then. D.Va I see as someone who assists with the tanking, while discouraging and punishing those players that break away, especially those seeking high ground advantages for sniping and such. Not 1v2,3,4,5 or 6, but 1v1.

But here is the issue:
She cannot 1v1. in her current state unless facing a player that either 1: doesn't know how to deal with you yet, or 2: is just a lot worse at the game than you - you are either out of your meka, retreating, or even dead.

Now a good D.Va can reclaim a meka in less than ten seconds if the circumstances are just right, but this is massively situational and rarely happens - and depends on whether your previous opponent knew whether to aim at the escape hatch and murder you mid-animation lock or not.

In the lower tiers and in casual arcade she is incredibly fun - but you're in environments there where people lack knowledge and awareness or just don't care all that much in comparison to the higher rank play.

Every other tank gives a player pause for thought. "Do I really want to tangle with this guy without help? Should I fall back and go for regroup?" D.Va does not.

On paper her damage looks freaking awesome. Go stand right in front of a barrier and hold M1 and it vanishes in short order. No dispute there.

Against moving targets though? With tiny hitboxes? While they are against you spamming adad jump and crouch - a target that can't spam crouch, with the largest critbox in the game, surrounded entirely by hitbox so any miss still registers damage, who will be actively firing if you're trying to do the job of actually killing someone or doing enough damage to discourage them?

People need to realise that her damage per shot is low as a result. Winston's is low, but requires minimal aim and thus is a threat because it's so much harder to gtfo.

Her damage falloff is harsh, and is exasperated by the spread of her shots.
Note that her weapons are hitscan also, so no forgiving projectile hitboxes.
Going for consistent headshots on close targets is a gamble.
You have to be *really really* good at tracking, and pray that you're doing more damage overall than you would have been if you'd just gone for body shots, because loads of pellets are missing the target altogether despite your crosshair being so awesomely affixed on their face.

Now, this would be a non-issue if D.Va could mitigate damage while dealing it. With DM down, she's a slow moving easy-to-hit target that is going to take so much freaking damage. It is a certainty she'll have lost a good portion of armor attempting a mobile disruption from splash and chip damage before she even gets to pull off an encounter. Hence why she had 400 armor to begin with.

If D.Va is not meant to kill, or even deal enough damage to dissuade a target from their position, then why does she have boosters?
What use is that mobility if when we fly up to meet that pesky Widow, or pounce on that soldier who thought he could get away with a yolo rambo on the balcony, or dive on that Mercy that angelic descended waaaay off to the side...

...they just stand their ground, and deny us instead.

She needs a little something. LITTLE guys, a little. So little that one of the most commonly stated options offers to compromise and REDUCE her overall health pool to attain such small changes.

So can we please stop with the incredibly uneducated "trololol she's a 100% ult eating pacman who 1v6s" crap and get to what is really important?
Getting her into a balanced spot.
Getting her in line with the other tanks.
Getting her back into a position where people consider her a risky confrontation.
04/04/2017 01:38 PMPosted by ChrisDa5th
Serious question. Why is D.Va warranted for have "18 parts"?
I would assume its the same stuff being talked about over over over again.
Im not trying to troll. Its just crazy to see this in the front page every single day.
Highly Rated
()destroyed
()rekt
()obliterated
(x)D.Vastated

Tom be praised.
Highly Rated
another part 18? well this is going to be confusing
in be4 haters.
this is a dva community thread and people are just jealous that dva gets supports

good work slade

we making history
Please Staph !
They don't stop coming and they don't stop coming...
Hey now!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qvg9r5-BCOA
04/04/2017 12:05 PMPosted by Roks
another part 18? well this is going to be confusing


The first one was really messed up looking from my end since I made the post on mobile, and still am on mobile, so I deleted it. Does it not actually delete the post?

Grand.
Highly Rated
Hey Blizzard,

Can you please create a filter on the forums so I can ignore any megathreads? They are just spam and are really getting annoying.

Thanks.
I'm going to drop a post that I made in a thread that has now been deleted, since the OP of the thread was literally just trolling. I feel like my response is easily generalized to the general populace of troll that claims "DVA is fine". The following is in context of that argument and the subsequent defense that that's just like, your opinion, man.

=================================
Idk just my opinion.


You can continue to defend your position as "just your opinion" for as long as you wish. And you are allowed to have whatever opinion you choose to hold.

But opinions can be wrong. Especially opinions that purport to be factual or objective in nature. If you wish to claim that you find DVA "un-fun" or that you dislike the shade of pink for her default Meka, that is subjective and as such while people might disagree they cannot disprove your personal preference. The claim that "X is OP" however is quite easily demonstrably true or false based on data and the context said data resides within.

DVA is not OP. Quite the opposite, actually. And there's far more anecdotal evidence from people with far more experience playing as, with and/or against DVA that suggests she is underpowered.

http://www.omnicmeta.com/2017/03/pc-meta-report-s4w3.html
http://www.omnicmeta.com/2017/04/pc-hero-meta-report-s4w45.html

Across three weeks now, DVA has shown a consistent pattern of being less and less picked as you go to higher and higher ranks. There's some slight variance between the two meta reports but that's to be expected. There's still a very strong trend that as players understand and improve at the game DVA is less and less valuable, at least in general usage terms. She may still be useful in very specific niche circumstances or useful to players that dedicate themselves to making her work despite being weak.

But make no mistake, anyone forcing themself to continue playing DVA is handicapping themself. It'd be like if you were training with weighted clothing and then never bothered to take off said training gear when you showed up to the actual fight.

And finally, to the anticipated point of "but the pros use her". The pros play in a very, very different circumstance compared to 99.9% of the playerbase. They play in a highly coordinated environment with people they can practice with and develop a rapport with that allows them to successfully leverage DVA's DM, the one powerful element of her kit that remains strong at this point in time.

This is not applicable to the rest of the playerbase. If group-queueing didn't overly punish the people doing it, this could perhaps begin to emerge but unless the entire SR system is overhauled or we get a separate team queue, we will never even approach the pro level of coordination and understanding of the game as a TEAM GAME where it is affordable to dedicate an entire player and character pick to one element of said character's kit.
always great to see these threads alive and well!
04/04/2017 12:06 PMPosted by M3T4
These "Mega-Threads" have become straight up spam and are obnoxious. Please stop creating them. They add nothing to the previous one and instead parrot and echo that which was posted in the last 16.


How ironic it is then when someone smashes refresh button so they can keep on spamming in these threads then? If ya'll stopped parroting yourselves, we might get a good discussion going.

Truth seems to sting quite a bit.
04/04/2017 12:06 PMPosted by M3T4
These "Mega-Threads" have become straight up spam and are obnoxious. Please stop creating them. They add nothing to the previous one and instead parrot and echo that which was posted in the last 16.


The whole purpose of a megathread is to contain discussion to a single topic for the express purpose of reducing forum spam. This is stated in the OP and is, quite frankly, so incredibly obvious that it should not need to be explained to you.
I still think my suggestion from January is the way to go.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20752756025

Yes, I know everyone hates losing the movement speed buff, but I honestly think making the tank class more diverse by moving her away from Winston and back towards what she originally was will make the game overall more interesting and varied.

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