McCree: The Abandoned & Dysfunctional Kit

General Discussion
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full month of waiting for balance patch, and this
05/03/2017 05:14 PMPosted by KAIZER
They nerfed soldier 1dmg
"so we heard mccree is in a bad place, and since we don't want to buff him for Reasons We Absolutely Have we'll just nerf soldier's damage!"
"hey, that's pretty ni—"
"by 1dmg!"
"also hanzo can now 1-shot every hero in the game in no time"
Our poor cowboy has been left behind, again..
Bumping this because I just lost a triple kill to McCree's ult delay. Had 3 skulls. No shields up. It was going to be beautiful. Clicked to fire. Rein got his shield up after I triggered and stopped all 3 shots.

Because why would McCree want to kill anything with his ult when there are skulls over the faces of the enemy team?
Saw this video, didnt know if it was posted already:

"!@#$ that guy"
So...nothing on the last PTR.Lol.

Not even a change on his ultimate.
Nice work.

I thought they were listening to the community,I was wrong.
05/04/2017 02:02 AMPosted by Lgtmr
I thought they were listening to the community,I was wrong.
More like they roll a dice each time there's an update to decide which hero gets a change lmao.
Not single bug fix or QoL change to cooldowns at least...
High risk, high skill cap with mostly mediocre reward hero for masochists...
At least they made recoil more consistent.
05/04/2017 02:02 AMPosted by Lgtmr
So...nothing on the last PTR.Lol.

Not even a change on his ultimate.
Nice work.

I thought they were listening to the community,I was wrong.

If they were listening to the community, there wouldn't be an argument on the same McCree issues an entire year later. It is now May.

They clearly do not care for this character. And nothing is more disheartening than that.
This last PTR update is a joke. The ONLY blizzard's answer is to nerf soldier 76's damage (1 point, really???).
It's hilarious. Nobody asked it. We want a buff or a rework of mccree, not a f...... nerf of others characters.
No blue answer for a long time, despite tons of posts. No modifications or updates.
Blizzard doesn't care about player's reviews, especially about Mccree.
"Perhaps", they will finally modify him after incorporating :
- Doomfist
- Bria
- Ivon
- useless events and patchs
So, cu in one year, at least, for a hypothetical tiny modification...
Blizz did something which isn't really noteworthy:

This probably means they won't touch him for another 6 months...
Note: I continue to extend my gratitude to everyone supporting McCree and #fixhercowboy. I also thank iSinner, a fellow McCree player who has been there with me since day one. In addition, I have created a Discord server for McCree players as a sort of sanctuary to discuss balance changes:

All new members are locked from the channels until they are assigned an appropriate role by an admin; at their discretion.

As per my previous threads on McCree, this is a continuation of the on-going process I know would not be a debate easily conquered. It is not a debate that will be easily put down either, for it has not been adequately addressed. The same argument still stands from 6/2016 until this day:

McCree is not working as intended.

My directory of highly rated threads that illustrate the timeline of this debate (6/2016 - Present):

  • Jeff stated that there are three factors that Blizzard considers when determining hero balance. Community feedback, statistics (Blizzard API), and the developer perspective.

    When reworking Symmetra – statistics stated that she was in a good place. However, the developers and community both had a consensus that she was not as relevant as she could be; thus earning her a rework. 2/3 factors considered by Blizzard aligned to yield this result.

    McCree has had fatal flaws in his kit for nearly a year now. The community agrees that he is not in a strong spot. The statistics agree that he is not in a strong spot. All that is missing is developer acknowledgment/opinion. 2/3 factors align as they did with Symmetra; albeit different ones. Why is one factor, of which has not been considered, held in higher prestige than the remainder?

    Jeff on Hero Balance Procedure:

    Yet Jeff feels that McCree is not "wildly underpowered" (AMA, 3/13/2017):

    While I do agree that he is not wildly underpowered, this does NOT address the main concern of his players; which are the flaws in his kit - something of which still has yet to receive any degree of developer acknowledgment despite being statistically present and a community consensus. The positive aspect of this statement is the fact that the developers still seem neutral on his kit; so if we continue to argue constructively and intelligently - we may have a good turnabout.

    03/08/2017 06:22 PMPosted by Geoff Goodman
    Ana had the biggest changes in this patch, and upon testing, feedback, and talking about it a ton internally, we decided to pull back on the nerfs a bit for this patch. The damage reduction on her weapon is significant, but if this ends up not being enough we can re-visit some further tuning. We don't want to swing her balance too wildly within a single patch.

    What about McCree? I see that nerf reverts are happening. I think he is due for some too. Why weren't they as regulated as this, and looked after? Why were they so sloppy and rushed? Why are only SOME heroes worthy of this level of care and treatment; why not McCree?

    Geoff's Statement:

    We don't want wild balance swings, but we are okay with so many major kit/role changes in under three months? Tank shredder McCree (6/2016), damage reduced/useless McCree (6/2016), 35m McCree (7/2016), animation cancel removed (hidden nerf, 8/2016), Deadeye nerfed (9/2016); and the present day McCree - who hasn't evolved with the game. This is blatant, clear balancing bias.

    Ana (and others, like Roadhog) clearly have favor with the developers while other heroes are rendered useless, or even downright discarded. Overwatch League is due to launch very soon; Blizzard has been signing off large contracts to teams and forming partnerships. Ana is a key hero to many professional compositions. The rest speaks for itself here; balance does NOT make money. However, truly consider that this level of neglect to parts of the playerbase doesn't either; and the effects on income and customer loyalty are much more heavier in both damage and volume... In the long run.

    McCree was the very first experiment for Blizzard and only now people are noticing this treatment with D.Va.; however, this cannot continue. So many heroes are due for nerf reconsiderations, McCree especially; yet Ana remains the most cared for hero on the roster. This is despicable. I want justice for McCree, as well as D.Va; but McCree players have waited long enough.

    The mighty is capable of falling - what was once our hated (beloved to his players), tank shredding outlaw has now fallen to the ranks of rarely-used; solely because of the pure neglect that he has received since July 2016. This was the last thing to be said about McCree, until he was left forgotten:
    07/18/2016 08:25 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
    We'll keep a close eye on balance. If something isn't right, we will take steps to address it.

    The balancing bias needs to end. This is illustrated in the most recent Lucio changes; ones nobody requested that only serve to improve the tank comp.

  • McCree is no longer a valid pick:

    The skill of his players is no longer sufficient to make him viable; we've done it for him, for months - but WE ARE NOT ENOUGH ANYMORE. We've adapted. We've "gotten gud". His LMB is no longer sufficient of a crutch to ensure his reliability - nor does it make a team feel safe. Soldier 76 does every single thing he does, but better. I request that we not nerf Soldier. I request that we buff McCree and bring him on par WITH Soldier.

    Professional players such as IDDQD agree that McCree is not sufficient to rely on anymore with the newly revamped 76, SOLELY because he brings so much more to the table:

    If a professional player can logically imply that a hero can bog down a game, even with their skill, at their level... That is a balance issue.

    Just compare their overall performance on a global scale, on PC competitive:


    Soldier 76:

    In addition, his hitboxes are absurdly exaggerated. His hat, his serape; all extremely large and out of proportion for a rather average sized man; as evidenced in this post (credit to hever50):

  • Patch Notes (Deadeye Nerf, 9/1/2016):

    Deadeye is statistically the WORST offense Ultimate in the game; clocking in at about 3.21 eliminations (PC, competitive). Yet what did that earn Deadeye? A nerf. 76 has auto aim, access to all of his abilities, a heal pool, rockets, etc - while using his Ultimate. McCree has a festive spirit and really bad luck.

    How is this balanced?

    Deadeye Flaws Illustrated:

    Suggested Improvements:
  • Remove the delay that occurs after inputting the command to fire. There is no reason a hitscan character should have a delay like this. Why is it a projectile? This should be a must.
  • Increase the rate at which locks latch onto enemies.
  • Target priority. Low HP enemies, exposed enemies, etc. should be shot at rather than following the right-to-left pattern we have now which often allows once-vulnerable enemies that were successfully locked on a chance to escape.
  • Reduce the ridiculously bright red glow and his loud call out.
  • Allow him access to his abilities, such as flashbang and roll; just like Soldier 76.
  • Increase his walking speed or do not hinder it at all.
  • Give him some resistance/armor/increased HP/shields upon the activation of Deadeye to provide some sustainability.
  • Instead of having his Ult call out be directional (disclosing his position) - it should be a global call out; disallowing enemies the chance to discover his positioning based on the direction of his callout. (Recommended by iSinner)
  • All of these should not be combined obviously, but any combination or even single addition would help McCree's underperforming Ult.

  • In addition to the massive contradiction that is McCree's skill requirement versus his reward; please review this aspect of his "weaknesses":

    Genji is listed as one of his weaknesses.

    "We want McCree to be a counter to people like Tracer, Genji and Reaper."
    - Jeff Kaplan


    Then fix flashbang; quite possibly the most inconsistent part of his kit.

    Suggested Improvements:
  • Momentum stopping. This should be a must. Roadhog's hook stops momentum; why does flashbang not do the same? McCree even has voicelines such as "hold on", "don't move" which imply that the target should stop. Yet, THEY DON'T.
  • Enable it a reliable, consistent path. This should be another must. There are times where flashbang originates, only to wrap around enemies and miss in the most absurd ways. See the video provided.
  • The countdown should begin only when the target is STATIONARY or grounded.
  • Possible increase from 0.70 seconds to 0.90 or a full second.
  • Flashbang Issues Illustrated:

    A wonderful list of flashbang flaws, by iSinner:
    03/08/2017 11:31 AMPosted by iSinner

    • - Sombra is carried by the momentum behind cover, the flashbang is wasted just like hook was by jumping into cover, except the CD is 10s, not 6s
    • - i doubt a ROG eSports player will be able to land a shot on this one
    • - Ana literally ended up on McCree's head after being flashbanged. I guess this is the closest we have to HATs yet.
    • [[[[[NEW]]]]] - again, Dva landed on my head, are you trolling me at this point?
    • [[[[[NEW]]]]] - Symmetra on my head, SERIOUSLY? how many times will this happen? stop trolling me blizzard
    • - carried by momentum outside of FOV, really?
    • - doesn't stop swift strike(dash) either, but stops rein charge? 'fair'

    • - if it stopped momentum, the whole thing would have played differently. I would have killed him, and i would saw the rein coming etc. This is just infuriating.
    • - why even use the flashbang if it doesn't stop the target? tracer just got a free escape card granted to her by the momentum
    • - same thing, perfectly executed flashbang escaped for free by momentum
    • - if she didn't get flashbanged, nothing would have changed. The skill literally had 0 effect on the situation, and again, free escape granted by momentum.
    • - this is ridiculous, i stunned him and i still die, while he is being stunned? what?
    • - who needs a skill to work in a critical situation, right? let's just appreciate how flashbang did jack all here to stop genji. Again, free escape granted by momentum
    • - this one looks more like the flashbang helped sombra to escape by bouncing her close to cover. This is just silly.
    • [[[[[NEW]]]]] - "Ok, low health, ridiculously tiny target to hit... i have a plan, i need to flashbang her to secure a kill... F*CK" Who needs a skill to work, right?
    • [[[[[NEW]]]]] - do i need piercing bullets to land this shot? how do i get access to them?
    • [[[[[NEW]]]]] - "I will strategically bounce so that you can't see my head, i hope you like foot fetish"

    This is a huge slap in the face of McCree players around the world. This has been consistently pointed out; yet we receive no fixes. Not even acknowledgment. This is not okay. This can happen to any hero at any given time.

    Roadhog's hook stops momentum and pulls the target to the same point on the screen most times. Yet, flashbang still sits at a 10 second cooldown with an unreliable origin point, no momentum stopping, and a 0.7 second timer. To top it off, most of the lifespan of the game - Hook was 6s in cooldown while Flashbang remained at 10. And Hog ALSO gets a self-heal. A 600 HP tank can sustain himself better than a 200 HP squishy that wishes he had even an ounce of Hog's kit. Balance.

    It gets worse:
    To add insult to injury, McCree players seldom get the chance to utilize the full 0.70 seconds of flashbang time even during a successful execution. How you may ask? Immediately after tossing flashbang, McCree has a brief animation where he pulls his revolver back; a slight "recovery window" where he cannot shoot - regardless of whether or not the flashbang has already landed on the enemy or not.

    The travel time for flashbang is 0.30 seconds. During the "recovery window" where McCree pulls the revolver back and cannot shoot, he actually can cut 0.30 seconds of time off of his 0.70 total stun time. You cannot do anything in this small window until the animation is complete; regardless if the flash has hit or not. Flashbang was meant to be utilized in combination with Fan the Hammer; however, Fan-the-Hammer cast time is approximately 0.67 seconds. Explain to me this; how can you successfully execute a flashbang and fan-the-hammer combo with a 0.70 total stun time, a 0.30 recovery window where you cannot shoot, and a 0.67 total cast time for fan-the-hammer?

    You can't. The combo of flashbang+fth is flawed at it's core and does not function as it is advertised.

    After months of pushing for improvements, pointing out fatal flaws, and bringing hard facts to the table - we finally get flashbang updates only to be rewarded with --
  • McCree no longer receives credit toward his on-fire meter when his Flashbang is used against Mei’s Ice Wall

  • If anything needed to be fixed in Blizzard's eyes, it was the on-fire bonus that he received from those dangerous Ice Walls. This change, to the weakest - most flawed part of his kit. Shameful. The bias against McCree has never been more obvious as every hero around him receives improvements while he is left behind, ignored - but don't worry. He has skins coming.

    Source (Patch Notes, 3/21/2017):

  • His cooldowns and kit are all still representative of the original June 2016 launch build that hid all of his core flaws so well due to his sheer power. They have not been adjusted nor fine tuned to adapt to the present day McCree. Combat roll has a higher cooldown than D.Va's booster jets (a tank; 5s, can push people off and do damage) and is only NOW equal to Roadhog's hook (another tank, hook WAS 6s, now 8s).

    Suggested Improvements:
  • Decrease the cooldown for Combat Roll to 5s. It is his ONLY form of increased mobility; despite never truly being purposed as a mobility device. If there is no intention to fix fan-the-hammer, repurpose roll to a mobility device and more frequent free reloads to support the only viable part of his kit - LMB.
  • Increased resistance to damage during the roll.
  • Increase the distance of the roll from 6m to 8m.
  • Again, roll was never intended to be a mobility device; but if Blizzard genuinely has zero intentions on making FtH reliable again - may as well make it a mobility device.


  • Fan-the-Hammer is extremely under-used and for good reason. It is outshined by LMB in every way possible; forces a 1.5 second reload, and has a 0.67 total cast time - leaving a full chambered execution to last about nearly 2.5 seconds when rounded up. Every second matters in a fast paced game like Overwatch; when weighing the risk/reward of utilizing FtH - there is almost no value to it unless you are shooting at a shield, a tank, and have a roll to follow up with it. The RNG spread is horrible, 45 damage per bullet is quiet low, and ultimately; LMB is just superior for those with great aim - practicality matters. This rules out one entire part of his kit; unfair considering that every hero should rely on and use every part of their kit.

    Suggested Improvements:
  • Damage should be bumped to 330 maximum damage; 55 per bullet.
  • The spread should be SLIGHTLY tightened to allow for a more precise execution. Spread should not be tightened in extreme amounts, to avoid him from using this as a ranged tool.
  • An decreased overall casting speed (increase the unloading speed).
  • Reduced recoil.
  • The RNG aspect should be completely removed; there should be a consistent pattern to his bullets.
  • I utilize FtH because I wish to have genuine faith in his kit; but it destroys accuracy and generally doesn't provide as much as it seems to.

  • McCree feels as if he has been set up for failure.

    He needs a true buff. Not a compensated buff, not a trade off. Not a cut from one aspect of his kit so that another part may benefit; no. A TRUE BUFF. Stop ignoring him already, he has been ignored the longest despite what anybody claims - and we actually have a timeline to back this. We will keep bringing facts until it is addressed.

    McCree is heavily biased against solely because of the first two weeks of the game, and only one week in July; for things beyond the control of his player base – all because of a simplistic mob mentality. Just because he was powerful at first does not mean that his kit should suffer for the remaining lifespan of the game.

    With the power behind other heroes such as Soldier 76, Roadhog, and so forth; I am prepared for the downvote fury this may ensue - but tank shredder McCree may have a place in modern Overwatch - solely because of how it has evolved. The entirety of the game and cast has evolved; a hero limit for competitive and quick play has been incorporated. Arcade ("No Limits") does not have statistical player value weighed. The game is nearly a year old, and McCree has been watched for a while. When his first nerf came, it came at a time where there was no reliable statistics, no competitive mode, no hero limit, and barely enough time for people to perfect the game enough to be called "skilled" at it; so NATURALLY he'd be a force less tampered with. His nerf made sense at the time. But now, that power may have a place. After all, that first nerf was an emergency, rushed nerf only two-three weeks into the lifespan of the game.

    New video by Spumwack, the man who publicized the issues/flaws with McCree's kit back in August 2016 - propelling the debate forward (3/30/2017):

    Some of his information and suggestions in this particular video are not a reflection of my own personal perspectives on McCree's kit and flaws. I respectfully do not concur on some aspects of his points; but the point of this video is to inspire thought on McCree's kit.

    As you can note, McCree is a beloved hero to me and others. During the Dice event, Jeff stated that he felt it was "sad" that some Americans see themselves in relation to McCree:

    Is that necessary? McCree is a wonderful representation, despite being a stereotype. There is nothing wrong with being patriotic and relating to McCree and this just feels like a cheap shot at him, on top of the fact that his entire design feels set up for failure.

    So I will finalize my statements with this. We have adapted to McCree, all iterations of him. I wouldn't have it any other way; we will continue to do so. But, it is time that he is cared for enough on the other end as well by those other than his fans and players - to be molded, shifted; so that HE may adapt as well. The bias needs to end. This treatment is spreading. It only started with McCree.

    Thank you for your time, support, and attention in this matter. I genuinely appreciate it.


    McCree is my 3rd most picked hero right now, and i can say it is 100% balanced!!! His damage is really strong if you can hit the target... If you dont think so, you need to train you aim!

    His ult is weak, yes, but it charges really fast, and works very well against phara, lucio, and other heroes.

    McCree is my 3rd most picked hero right now, and i can say it is 100% balanced!!! His damage is really strong if you can hit the target... If you dont think so, you need to train you aim!

    His ult is weak, yes, but it charges really fast, and works very well against phara, lucio, and other heroes.

    What about flashbang? Have you ever noticed how buggy and inconsistent it is? Ever felt like you tickle people who are more than 21 yards away?
    Raizen if "train to aim" you'll do just as well with 76's primary fire as you will Mcree's. The difference is you'll have abilities that are actually useful to your team and a powerful ult.

    If we have 2 heroes with almost identical damage primaries, except one's easier to use and has better abilities, than the other is in fact not balanced.
    05/03/2017 04:04 PMPosted by mamasugaa
    So we have a new PTR update and what a surprise, they completely ignored McCree again. Wonderful.

    Time to bump this !@#$ up some more.

    05/03/2017 05:02 PMPosted by Reboticon
    They can't even fix his !@#$ing bugs. They acknowledged one two weeks ago and haven't commented since. They've ignored at least 5 threads about his deadeye DR bug.

    I think I'm done. Not with playing the game, but with spending money on it. Every event I buy at least 100 loot boxes. I won't buy another until they address McCree. Even if it is to just tell us to %^-* off.

    they actually did fix the aim bug in PTR right now....but they dont want to act like they care about McCree so it was a secret fix and wasnt listed
    Reading this thread an outsider would think McCree was the worst hero in the game rather than the second best dps hitscan pick after Soldier.

    OP is 4.4k ranked, I get matched with 4k people outside ranked all the time because you know the matchmaker does that and good McCree's contribute as much as any other high tier dps if their aim is on point.

    Apart from an Ult improvment and momentum stop on flashbang it's seems impossible to buff him further without making him Soldier 77 and flipping positions. His LC is so strong and the flashbang headshot plink has no counter other than missing. His RC is weak that's bad design and should be looked but lest not forget this arguably most minor of his abilities used to 100-0 people with ease for practically no aim.

    For ranked, this game has too many characters and only 6 slots, it's impossible to make every hero tier 1 even factoring in situational ability benefits to boost their contribution. This will only get increasingly worse with more hero releases.
    Many in this thread just want to perpetuate the FoTM buff/nerf cycle and lobby for their favourite hero to be king of the hill next.
    I request that we not nerf Soldier. I request that we buff McCree and bring him on par WITH Soldier.

    I could not AGREE MORE
    05/04/2017 04:26 PMPosted by SAdTIREd
    I request that we not nerf Soldier. I request that we buff McCree and bring him on par WITH Soldier.

    I could not AGREE MORE
    dream on
    05/04/2017 04:23 PMPosted by Mesker
    Reading this thread an outsider would think McCree was the worst hero in the game rather than the second best dps hitscan pick after Soldier.

    Tracer is a hitscan hero and up there with Soldier. You probably are thinking about mid-range but chances are the new Hanzo will be better than McCree for that. Maybe you should make up some other way of making him sound better like "The best cowboy pick in game" or something.

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