Hog Is Still Too Strong

General Discussion
04/14/2017 08:44 PMPosted by Beartornado
04/14/2017 08:04 PMPosted by Shadowbane12
Tanks are meant to be meat shields not Killing machines. Their KPM should not be on par with DPS. If a TANK has KPM equal to or more than a DPS, they are factually overpowered.


Not according to Blizzard's intended design of Roadhog and how he achieves his role as a tank. Factually crumbles in the face of what was intended, not what your opinion is. Go convince the blues that his design should be overhauled and then you can go back to your 14 year old power fantasy.


Incorrect.

That is the design for all games. Blizzard did not create nor invent the term "tank" in gaming nor do they define it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_(gaming)

He is in the tank slot. The game says he is a tank, the devs say he is a tank. He has EHP at a larger standard then all non tanks, ergo he is a tank. Team boosting, CC, Displacement, etc are all secondary and optional attributes commonly found on tanks in gaming. Being a Meat shield is first and foremost primary attribute.

Yet again, I have provided evidence, and still see ZERO presented to counter it.

Evidence trumps opinion.
04/14/2017 05:54 PMPosted by Strawberry
I do agree, his insta kill combo is just way too easy. Insta kill should be for heroes like widowmaker that requires a lot more skill.

He doesnt even need the combo anymore at med-short range.
Died (playing Soldier).

Waited for spawn time.

Ran outside.

One shot killed by a Roadhog (right-clicked) with full health.

Waited for spawn time again... wow, how fun.

I remember this because it's happened more than once to me. It isn't really enjoyable for the hog player to pull off a single shot and get a kill, but it's extremely frustrating for those that get shot once and die from it.

And then there's the abusive hook. I say it's abused because it's meant to bring people towards hog players. Even if you're standing in front of a hog, they'll still use it so that you can't do any damage to them. If they simply got rid of the stun factor towards the end of the hook so that people have a fighting chance, then Roadhog wouldn't be so bad. As it stands, he's horrible to play against with his now perfect hook 2.1 + one shoot bullsh.it.

He needs a nerf.
I hate hog. I made a thread asking for another nerf and got downvoted but TS gets upvotes? Must be that time of day thing. He is a hard hero to balance. I personally would like a health nerf to 500.

Also anyone saying he doesn't get hook combo consistently anymore is a liar. You're telling me you can't kill a hooked hero 80% of the time? BS

Also lol at the easy to predict and dodge. Yeah. As if that guarantees you can always avoid death.
Hog mains out in force. Wonder if the D.Va mains who were grizzling about her nerfs have moved on and are now maining hog?
I agree on this one... I don't think he is that overpowered though but... while I can understand the hook -> one shot since his role is to punish wrong positioning, I don't understand the random right click at long range. Too many times do I make a 200IQ plan in my head to make the hog miss his hook for in the end getting one shot by his rightclick regardless. His area of effectiveness is too wide imo, he should be able to one shot at close range because his bulk allows it but surely not 10m+
04/14/2017 08:54 PMPosted by Shadowbane12
04/14/2017 08:44 PMPosted by Beartornado
...

Not according to Blizzard's intended design of Roadhog and how he achieves his role as a tank. Factually crumbles in the face of what was intended, not what your opinion is. Go convince the blues that his design should be overhauled and then you can go back to your 14 year old power fantasy.


Incorrect.

That is the design for all games. Blizzard did not create nor invent the term "tank" in gaming nor do they define it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_(gaming)

He is in the tank slot. The game says he is a tank, the devs say he is a tank. He has EHP at a larger standard then all non tanks, ergo he is a tank. Team boosting, CC, Displacement, etc are all secondary and optional attributes commonly found on tanks in gaming. Being a Meat shield is first and foremost primary attribute.

Yet again, I have provided evidence, and still see ZERO presented to counter it.

Evidence trumps opinion.


Did you... actually read the wiki article you linked?

"tanks redirect enemy attacks or attention toward themselves in order to protect other characters or units"

Hog does none of that. I suppose he could be a high priority target, but by that reasoning mercy is the tankiest character in the game?
let sleeping pigs lie
his hook comes back so slowly now he's not even fun to play anymore
04/14/2017 09:16 PMPosted by Dalas120
04/14/2017 08:54 PMPosted by Shadowbane12
...

Incorrect.

That is the design for all games. Blizzard did not create nor invent the term "tank" in gaming nor do they define it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_(gaming)

He is in the tank slot. The game says he is a tank, the devs say he is a tank. He has EHP at a larger standard then all non tanks, ergo he is a tank. Team boosting, CC, Displacement, etc are all secondary and optional attributes commonly found on tanks in gaming. Being a Meat shield is first and foremost primary attribute.

Yet again, I have provided evidence, and still see ZERO presented to counter it.

Evidence trumps opinion.


Did you... actually read the wiki article you linked?

"tanks redirect enemy attacks or attention toward themselves in order to protect other characters or units"

Hog does none of that. I suppose he could be a high priority target, but by that reasoning mercy is the tankiest character in the game?


I did read it, you just took a tiny part out of context. Nice try though.

A tank (also known as a meat shield) is a style of character in gaming, often associated with a character class. A common convention in real-time strategy games, role-playing games, fighting games, multiplayer online battle arenas and MUDs, tanks redirect enemy attacks or attention toward themselves in order to protect other characters or units. Since this role often requires them to suffer large amounts of damage, they rely on large amounts of vitality or armor, healing by other party members, evasiveness and misdirection, or self regeneration.[1]


Redirecting enemy attacks or attention towards themselves is entirely subjective.
Name a single Overwatch competitive map/mode that is NOT objective based? Simple fact of the matter is they are ALL objective based. Simply having a higher standard EHP in comparison to the relative DPS of average DPS counterparts, makes you redirect enemy attacks. The enemy team has to get you off the objective to take it or stop you from taking it. Hog also has displacement which also makes him a high priority target. Pulling and enemy into his own team should be an easy and quick kill, 9/10 by his team capitalizing on said displacement...thereby forcing a 6v5

"Tanking" occurs when the unit is intended to be the one taking damage (typically by being dangerous or detrimental, or using a game mechanic that forces it to be targeted), and secondly, to ensure that they can survive this damage through sheer health points or mitigation.
In real-time strategy games the role of a tank unit is to provide a health buffer for weaker ranged classes. Frequently maneuvering or other tactics are used by the tank to make themselves the most tempting or highest-priority target of enemy attacks, thereby diverting enemy attacks away from allies. Many basic strategies in games such as StarCraft and Warcraft III revolve around learning to micro-manage units so they attack tanks first so that the tanks do not continually attack units.[citation needed]
In group play found in many role-playing games, the role of the tank is to protect players that are low-armor or low-health classes. The role of a tank is typically to survive an oncoming attack, and then ensure that they are the target of the incoming attack. It then falls upon the healer (in large-scale play, often specifically assigned to the role, with spells specializing with high healing output over one or two targets) to restore the tank's health so he does not die and allow him or her to take the next attack.


In most games that feature a clear-cut "tank" class or character, there are three factors that contribute to a tank's survivability. The first is a large amount of health for absorbing damage that would normally go to lower health classes.[1] The second is damage mitigation, the ability to lessen the damage attacks do in the first place. This is often accomplished through a high armor or defense stat mechanic. Finally, there is the ability to avoid attacks altogether. Depending on the game and class, a tank may focus on any combination of these.


So far I have presented the following evidence in this very thread:

1. Hog is overpowered
2. Hook is easiest ability to land
3. Hog is a tank

Still waiting even a shred of evidence suggesting otherwise to be presented.
04/14/2017 08:44 PMPosted by Dalas120
1. Hog is not a tank. He has 600 hp, but he does nothing a tank can do. If hp is the requirement for a tank, why is mei considered an off-tank when she only has 250 hp? Why are zarya and Orissa tanks with *only* 400 hp? Tanks protect teammates and make space. Hog can do neither.


Roadhog definitely creates space. If you are in that 20 meter range, you are in constant danger, even as another tank, since also they can be insta-killed (Zarya and Orisa) or near-insta-killed. If Reinhardt lets down his shield, everyone behind is in danger.
If you watch pro games, you will see them all cowering in fear behind walls and ledges, poking some damage when Roadhog is not looking in their direction. If that is not creating space, I don't know what is.
Pro players use the enemy roadhog for ult charge. Roadhog, like mei, is a sphere of influence. You come into his zone, you get hooked, you die. You come into mei's zone, you get frozen, you die. You come into symmetra's zone, she attaches, you die.

Roadhog has the largest sphere in the game but he can only hook 1 person every 8 seconds whereas mei and symmetra remain equally as deadly at all times.

Pros
-Strong counter to flankers.
-Punishes people out of position
-Strong CC against tanks like D.Va and enemy ultimates with his hook.

Cons
-Large hitbox feeds enemy DPS ultimates.
-No mobility
-Defenseless against long range.

High level players generally use roadhog for ultimate charge. If getting tactical visor more often isn't a great tradeoff for getting hooked and killed once. Roadhog is so fat he can't really juke you. He's hard to miss and his head is easy to pick as a sniper. I used to play a lot of roadhog, and you really won't understand much about a hero until you play them.

You need to think of him less as a hero and more of a person playing that hero. It's very easy to predict when a roadhog player might go for a hook. In the same way you can predict when a widowmaker player wants to take the shot. You get inside that roadhog player's head and there's not much he can do to you.

Or you can play zarya and feed charge off his hooks now that the cool time is the same as your shield.

Roadhog is so deadly a lot of people overlook the amount of feeding he can do. Reinhardt can guarnteed kill every hero including the enemy Reinhardt with a charge swing firestrike combo. But nobody complains about that. Even roadhog can go down to this pretty easily if he doesn't play his cards right. It is fairly easy to catch someone with a charge. If you every watch it in slow motion, the hit detection is really quite extraordinary. You'll see someone off to the side, quickly slide into place of the pin.

A tank (also known as a meat shield) is a style of character in gaming, often associated with a character class. A common convention in real-time strategy games, role-playing games, fighting games, multiplayer online battle arenas and MUDs, tanks redirect enemy attacks or attention toward themselves in order to protect other characters or units. Since this role often requires them to suffer large amounts of damage, they rely on large amounts of vitality or armor, healing by other party members, evasiveness and misdirection, or self regeneration.[1]


The article makes it clear that vitality, evasiveness, and self-healing are needed because tanks redirect atacks towards themselves. Hog does not do this. You said that his hp makes you a priority target. The opposite is true. To secure an objective, you need to win a team fight. To win the team fight, you cripple the enemy team as fast as possible. If it takes 600 damage to kill hog, and only 200 to kill soldier, obviously you want to target soldier first because he can be killed faster. Without an ability that forces you to kill/cripple the tank before killing other players (like rein's barrier or dva's matrix), only an idiot would shoot hog before soldier, or mercy, or pharah. Therefore, hog is not a tank because he cannot protect teammates. The article you linked made it clear that protection is the primary purpose of tanks.
04/14/2017 09:49 PMPosted by Dalas120

A tank (also known as a meat shield) is a style of character in gaming, often associated with a character class. A common convention in real-time strategy games, role-playing games, fighting games, multiplayer online battle arenas and MUDs, tanks redirect enemy attacks or attention toward themselves in order to protect other characters or units. Since this role often requires them to suffer large amounts of damage, they rely on large amounts of vitality or armor, healing by other party members, evasiveness and misdirection, or self regeneration.[1]


The article makes it clear that vitality, evasiveness, and self-healing are needed because tanks redirect atacks towards themselves. Hog does not do this. You said that his hp makes you a priority target. The opposite is true. To secure an objective, you need to win a team fight. To win the team fight, you cripple the enemy team as fast as possible. If it takes 600 damage to kill hog, and only 200 to kill soldier, obviously you want to target soldier first because he can be killed faster. Without an ability that forces you to kill/cripple the tank before killing other players (like rein's barrier or dva's matrix), only an idiot would shoot hog before soldier, or mercy, or pharah. Therefore, hog is not a tank because he cannot protect teammates. The article you linked made it clear that protection is the primary purpose of tanks.


You just contradicted yourself. Roadhog has 600 hp. HP = Vitality. Roadhog has self-healing. Your "translation" of the rest is purely subjective.

Still waiting on evidence suggesting otherwise. Keep committing logical fallacies though.
04/14/2017 09:49 PMPosted by Taikichi
Pro players use the enemy roadhog for ult charge. Roadhog, like mei, is a sphere of influence. You come into his zone, you get hooked, you die. You come into mei's zone, you get frozen, you die. You come into symmetra's zone, she attaches, you die.

Roadhog has the largest sphere in the game but he can only hook 1 person every 8 seconds whereas mei and symmetra remain equally as deadly at all times.

Pros
-Strong counter to flankers.
-Punishes people out of position
-Strong CC against tanks like D.Va and enemy ultimates with his hook.

Cons
-Large hitbox feeds enemy DPS ultimates.
-No mobility
-Defenseless against long range.

High level players generally use roadhog for ultimate charge. If getting tactical visor more often isn't a great tradeoff for getting hooked and killed once. Roadhog is so fat he can't really juke you. He's hard to miss and his head is easy to pick as a sniper. I used to play a lot of roadhog, and you really won't understand much about a hero until you play them.

You need to think of him less as a hero and more of a person playing that hero. It's very easy to predict when a roadhog player might go for a hook. In the same way you can predict when a widowmaker player wants to take the shot. You get inside that roadhog player's head and there's not much he can do to you.

Or you can play zarya and feed charge off his hooks now that the cool time is the same as your shield.

Roadhog is so deadly a lot of people overlook the amount of feeding he can do. Reinhardt can guarnteed kill every hero including the enemy Reinhardt with a charge swing firestrike combo. But nobody complains about that. Even roadhog can go down to this pretty easily if he doesn't play his cards right. It is fairly easy to catch someone with a charge. If you every watch it in slow motion, the hit detection is really quite extraordinary. You'll see someone off to the side, quickly slide into place of the pin.


cause a Reinhardt pin actualy involves a high risk concept ffs
04/14/2017 08:54 PMPosted by Shadowbane12
Incorrect.

That is the design for all games. Blizzard did not create nor invent the term "tank" in gaming nor do they define it.


They have defined it within the context of the game they have created. Their definition within Overwatch does not affect the general definition, that's the most egregious logical incursion I've ever seen, especially from someone who clings to it so much.

Incorrect indeed.
Decrease hook length.

Increase spread of or flat out remove right click.

Increase animation duration of self heal but keep overall heal same (so less hp/sec, and longer vulnerability time).
I think hog is in a good spot right now. His hook is still easy enough to dodge, I haven't been hooked for a long time now. And when I play hog I can't anymore. My average hook accuracy used to be around 60 now is at around 30.

I think he might need a VERY slight nerf. However it hunk blizzard should pay attention to other characters first - Dva, mccree, genji, hanzo, widow, soldier is a bit too strong.

Not to mention alllllllll the new bugs
Do it then. I'll still dominate most of you because I've reached such a stage I can hook almost anyone.
Don't confuse impactful and independent with overpowered.

What sets Roadhogg apart is that when your team is having trouble in the tanking and in the killing departments, the most skilled player in your team can pick Roadhogg and single-handedly fix both problems in one swoop.

Playing Roadhogg is actually more risky than people give credit for. Roadhogg is incapable of supporting the team -- the team has to support Roadhogg and there's no way around it. Allow the enemy team to hit your massive head, and you'll get drowned in ultimates.

To make things worse, your power is contained in 4 shots that work at very precise ranges, in a very slow-reloading clip.
04/14/2017 06:41 PMPosted by MoonFrost
I think reaper just needs some type of buff to allow him to be the counter tank he should be, instead of roadhog being a counter to reaper.

Atm in every situation you would want a reaper, roadhog is the better/safer choice.


like being able to !@#$ing wraithform out of the hook.

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