Does ELO hell exist in overwatch?

Competitive Discussion
I've always been someone in other team games who scoffed at the idea of ELO hell, like there shouldn't be a reason you can't impact the game and play better than the enemy team making stupid mistakes to carry games... but in overwatch something feels wrong and while I won't claim to understand the system SR uses, I don't think it's working and here is why I think so.

You can be proud of your play but all that should matter is if you win or lose. It suffers because we do use an individual skill rating system where you lose/gain SR based on statistics. The problem is that while it's a complicated system they spent money on making, I don't think it works. A bot can't compare medals, healing and damage very well or make judgements relevant to what caused a win or loss.

Example 1: Reinhardt charges in, hits a bunch of people with hammer and gets gold damage but loses game because he didn't play his role or shield. He could even have high shielding stats but no one behind him all game and just be standing there doing nothing but tanking bastion bullets. Reinhardt can single handedly be the primary reason his team lost but be the least punished in the team due to having "good" stats comparatively to other reinhardt players in other games.

Example 2: Mercy is on a good team that rarely dies or needs her rez, she was there and had impact or maybe only rezzed a solo rein with ult that won them the game in a clutch moment. Her stats are low so she wins maybe 5 SR instead of 20 like her teammates.

Since the beginning of team based games there have been people going "Why is my team so garbage, I did everything and they didn't deserve me" - whether it's true or not there has never been a good solution to how a computer would accurately judge individual skill and Blizzard hasn't managed it either. SR is completely messed up in overwatch as a result in my opinion.

I know Blizzard's intentions are good trying to reward players who play well even in games they didn't deserve to lose but those good intentions are leading us to a real ELO hell. I'm not sure I even believe ELO exists in any game outside of overwatch to be honest.

What do you guys think? Am I just talking about stuff I don't understand or does this make sense to you?
After playing a bit with my Maina day other smurfs. I'll tell you something, the concept of Elo hell is misleading. There are Elo hell times, if you play at those times you'll get !@#$ games. Weekends are horrible and after 2 am eatern until noonish. Playing those times you'll see horrible things.
I'd be really interested to see someone do an in depth look at how the hour of day effects win rates or team composition honestly.
There will come times when you feel like nothing is going your way and you will fall, sometimes by hundreds of sr. And then there are times you win win win and you are unstoppable and climb by hundreds of sr.

I have bad and good days, but I don't need to prove anything to anyone. I know how good I am, or else I wouldn't be able to compete with grandmasters and top 500 players, and even win some of those games. I play because I like playing Overwatch. If we win, great, if not, oh well gg and move on.

Elo hell is simply a perception. Think of it like the lottery. Millions of people buy tickets everyday, knowing their odds are 1 in millions. Just think of it like you have a chance to hit diamond or masters, but the odds are squarely in favor of the house. Rank is just a number that determines how many cp points you get at the end of a season. Don't look at rank, just play and have fun.
If you don't think it exist then why everyone complaining about toxicity trolls and throwers ? it's the very essence of elo hell.
It's actually called the Dunning Kruger effect. Elo hell is just what people like to call it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect
04/29/2017 09:14 PMPosted by kilojuliett
It's actually called the Dunning Kruger effect. Elo hell is just what people like to call it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect


Interesting.

I thought I was better than Gold, and am currently in Diamond. What effect was I under again?
Elo Hell does not exist.

04/29/2017 09:17 PMPosted by Automagic
04/29/2017 09:14 PMPosted by kilojuliett
It's actually called the Dunning Kruger effect. Elo hell is just what people like to call it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect


Interesting.

I thought I was better than Gold, and am currently in Diamond. What effect was I under again?


Seem to be still gold to me.

*Shrugs*

You must be diamond on some convenient smurf account you never actually post on. Hmmm.
Considering Blizzard's explanation of how they determine SR, would not be surprised if there is an ELO hell for some people. Especially if you have had the same account for the duration of OW. Pretty hard to climb when your hidden rating holds you back.

I was pretty strongly in the "elo hell doesn't exist" camp. Until they explained SR gains/losses, now who knows.
excluding what people " Think " their own skill rank should be

Your MMR is based on your games in QP and Comp from Day 1
There was an earlier Blue post about this I can not find it at this time

Now most people would agree that the lower you go on the ranking system the more likely you will run into Trolls, Leavers. and Just Toxic people in general.

With your MMR based on an average from day 1 your individual game has less of an effect on your overall average. The more games you play the less your individual games have an effect. You get teamed up with people of similar MMR so with each game even if you improve a little you don't see much of an SR gain. it will take a noticeable improvement ( like a GM playing in bronze ) to move up in rank at a noticeable rate

SR is the only measure we have to gauge if we are improving or not.
04/18/2017 04:03 PMPosted by Scott Mercer
The calculation of your SR adjustment after a match doesn’t look at your teammates, but instead compares you to the performance of other similarly skilled players with that hero across an enormous pool of competitive matches.

If the match making is correct then a 50/50 win loss should keep you at were you are at ( hence no Elo Hell ) but when you gain less on a win than you lose on loss then you steadily drop rank ( Hence Elo Hell does exist ) I think the SR gain/loss is comparing you with ALL Hero's not just the ones in your skill level which would explain the lower SR for a win compared to a loss

While I can show a possible example of Elo hell I think some of the top 10%ers here are also affected by the Dunning-Krueger effect. They forget just because it was easy for them does not mean it is easy for everybody else. if it were, they would not be the top 10%
I made a post on this a couple of weeks ago, Elo hell is temporary. I learned how to play every hero in a few matches a day usually when I got off of school or just late in the afternoon. I realized that matches I play in the middle of the day (between 10-3) are typically free of leavers and griefers, as soon as that 3-4 o'clock time in the afternoon comes around I get at least 1 leaver or griefer in everymatch, and then it dies down around 9pm. Weekends are generally bad just at all times except late in the night but then you get more unfair matches with bigger gaps between team ratings which can make it hard to win.

Basically what this boils down to is middle-schoolers and high-schoolers. They go to school at 8 and get back at 3 and go to bed at 9 or at least arent playing overwatch then. Best time to play is when they are at school because when they get off school they come home jump in a comp match before their mom tells them to get off the computer and clean their room or do their homework and then they leave, or maybe they had a bad test grade at school so they are angry and take it out on others in Overwatch by trying out hanzo for the first time. It sucks that it is this way but its the best explanation I can come up with for the reasons I cant gain sr after 3 in the afternoon. Best of luck and remember school is out for the summer in about a week or 2

Also with everyone doing the bronze to gm trend these days im getting kind of sick of it. While theoretically I could 1 trick my way into plat or diamond I would have to be a terrible teammate to do it. I hate getting in matches where people instalock a hero and refuse to swap, It forces the other 5 players to either pick around that hero or hope that the hero can carry their weight without support and generally it tilts people, especially when they start to get countered. Like symmetra only players that get dived by winstons and zaryas.
Saying there is no elo hell is like saying that no one throws no one is boosted and no one is toxic, a large portion of player base can solo cary them self out of bronze easily, but that does not mean people can do that at every rank.
I don't think it's restricted to your rank as much as it's your MMR. You have a play style that's getting paired off with people whom you are incompatible with.
Not in the conventional sense of 'I can't climb'.

The game has many a flaw that make it a really hard 89' climb. Leavers, smurfs, derankers, etc.

There was some big ol' top 500 player that said 1 person can't carry 5. Many a player will try and say the old 'Git gud' which is nonsense.

If you're going to climb, you need 3 others to come with. 4 core members is a good crew, so you're not mired in 6 stack land getting torn up by teams higher than yourselves.

Much of going up in rank is far too dependent on RNG.

Heh. A downvote for speaking the truth. Lawl.
04/29/2017 02:00 PMPosted by Tamsa
I've always been someone in other team games who scoffed at the idea of ELO hell, like there shouldn't be a reason you can't impact the game and play better than the enemy team making stupid mistakes to carry games... but in overwatch something feels wrong and while I won't claim to understand the system SR uses, I don't think it's working and here is why I think so.

You can be proud of your play but all that should matter is if you win or lose. It suffers because we do use an individual skill rating system where you lose/gain SR based on statistics. The problem is that while it's a complicated system they spent money on making, I don't think it works. A bot can't compare medals, healing and damage very well or make judgements relevant to what caused a win or loss.

Example 1: Reinhardt charges in, hits a bunch of people with hammer and gets gold damage but loses game because he didn't play his role or shield. He could even have high shielding stats but no one behind him all game and just be standing there doing nothing but tanking bastion bullets. Reinhardt can single handedly be the primary reason his team lost but be the least punished in the team due to having "good" stats comparatively to other reinhardt players in other games.

Example 2: Mercy is on a good team that rarely dies or needs her rez, she was there and had impact or maybe only rezzed a solo rein with ult that won them the game in a clutch moment. Her stats are low so she wins maybe 5 SR instead of 20 like her teammates.

Since the beginning of team based games there have been people going "Why is my team so garbage, I did everything and they didn't deserve me" - whether it's true or not there has never been a good solution to how a computer would accurately judge individual skill and Blizzard hasn't managed it either. SR is completely messed up in overwatch as a result in my opinion.

I know Blizzard's intentions are good trying to reward players who play well even in games they didn't deserve to lose but those good intentions are leading us to a real ELO hell. I'm not sure I even believe ELO exists in any game outside of overwatch to be honest.

What do you guys think? Am I just talking about stuff I don't understand or does this make sense to you?

Yup performance rating system is extremely stupid and doesn't work in quite a few cases. For example here is my main account season 3 stats -
https://masteroverwatch.com/profile/pc/us/Avallac-1790/season/3
I had 70% winrate on 76 at 4500 SR until a few bnet dc's during the winter event which is when I quit and decayed.
Stats don't look that great at all but I was carrying every game really hard, playing properly, flanking, getting critical picks and most importantly focusing one specific target and nobody else instead of spraying all over the place to get lots of elims/assist. I was getting pathetic 15 SR and losing 30 SR because the stupid performance rating system can not properly estimate your actual impact on the match, while someone playing some garbage torbjorn with 45% winrate would be getting 30 sr for wins and losing 20 for losses. I forgot which account it was but I remember a guy season 3 who kept on climbing into high top 500 with a negative winrate playing attack torb since the game though he was some kind of god due to very high performance compared to the rest of the playerbase on that hero.
This season I've been spraying and praying as much as possible, wirate is lower but I'm getting 25-30 SR per win and losing 20 at most making it much easier to climb than when playing properly with 70% winrate.
This is totally broken and cancerous.
Said it before, and I'll say it again. Other FPS games have far better match making systems in place that make climbing a rewarding and fun experience. CoD, BF, CS:GO are the big 3. The system in place for Overwatch is trash. Blizzard could have a great, near flawless game on their hands. Instead, it's going to be just kind of...there. As the other big 3 walk all over it.
04/29/2017 11:29 PMPosted by Moxsapphire
Said it before, and I'll say it again. Other FPS games have far better match making systems in place that make climbing a rewarding and fun experience. CoD, BF, CS:GO are the big 3. The system in place for Overwatch is trash. Blizzard could have a great, near flawless game on their hands. Instead, it's going to be just kind of...there. As the other big 3 walk all over it.

Cool story salty bronze.
Did you really put cod and bf in there? Wow, some great matchmaking BF has, just join a server full of random people, awesome, if only Overwatch had such great matchmaking!
I hope you tried to troll, otherwise thats just sad.
Elo Hell exist and is in each Rank: Gold (1900-2100), Platinum (2400-2600), Diamond (2900-3100). Basically is that little gapbetween Ranks that can be a true Hell but if you get the chance of getting a team then you evade it. I believe Elo Hell is more present in Solo Q, because there is less chance of communication: you can get people who peak different languages, people who use Mics, people who dont communicate at all.....and that is just some example withou counting Trolls, AFK, etc.
04/29/2017 10:21 PMPosted by Poli
Considering Blizzard's explanation of how they determine SR, would not be surprised if there is an ELO hell for some people. Especially if you have had the same account for the duration of OW. Pretty hard to climb when your hidden rating holds you back.

I was pretty strongly in the "elo hell doesn't exist" camp. Until they explained SR gains/losses, now who knows.


This guy gets it.

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