SR Gain on Zenyatta broken with the comparison to other Zens

Competitive Discussion
Oey,
I just want to report that I believe the SR gain on Zen with the system of comparing you to other players of that hero in the same skill bracket seems pretty broken to me https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20754415323#post-1. Here is why:

And know that I'm not here to say "Ey give me more sr!!!" I honestly don't really care, I win games and will get my sr even if its a bit slower. I only want the game to potentially be improved.

I'm a really nuts Zen.
According to Overbuff I currently rate #1 on Zen.
I'm on a 17winstreak (which should prove that I'm not bad or super deluded). And if I compare my game play to other players without wanting to overrate myself, I feel like I'm a bit ahead.
Most likely dude to me being a one trick and only practicing him every day xD (I just like the floaty monk and I make it work really well).

Surprisingly still I gain less SR than my teams average (good thing streaks where removed...). So the game must think I perform below an average Zen?
Even tough my theoretical stats are a good bit above everyone else in the Zen top 10... So not just my style is more effective also my stats are better.
I dunno what it uses to compare the Zen game play but it feels really broken to me.?

In my opinion it should go by per minute stats for:
The percentages show the weighting of the individual stat.
Offensive assists 15%, Defensive assists 10%, Damage (on players)15%, Damage on shields 10%, healing harmony orb 13%, healing ult 10%, Assists 12% and Final eliminations 15%.
If you want a detailed list and explanation why it should be distributed like this feel free to ask.
Hmm. This might just be a theory, but maybe blizzard are starting to "punish" people for only playing one hero? Most of the people I see complain, literally only play one hero.
I think if you want to maximize Zen under how the system currently works, you need to have more objective time, use your mult more often and get more elims. Healing and assists seem to be of almost no value to on fire meter and thus don't help your SR gain. I don't think this is how it should be, but it seems to be how it is.

I have seen many people complain specifically about their on-fire time going down on Zen since recent patches and I have witnessed the same for myself. I have read that the value of assists went down, and healing as well. Blizzard has not confirmed for sure if this change exists or if it is intentional if so.
04/19/2017 04:06 AMPosted by Tankz
Hmm. This might just be a theory, but maybe blizzard are starting to "punish" people for only playing one hero? Most of the people I see complain, literally only play one hero.


It seems to be purely related to on-fire time and changes that make it hard for supports to be on fire except when they get kills, capture objectives or use their ult. This is why some Mercy players feel like they have to solo rez more or use the pistol more. It's also why some may spend more time on the payload, etc than they should. The healing part of being a healer does not seem very valuable to on-fire/SR, except for ultimates that heal/barrier.
Blizzard - "Working as intended"

Also, fire has nothing to do with SR, Blizzard confirmed that. It compares your stats vs other players in your pool of that characters and works out SR.

Still, it's clear support SR is unfair and broken yet nothing will ever get done about it it seems. So don't be surprised when there are less and less players willing to play support.

EDIT: Here is Scott Mercers post.

Posted by Scott Mercer
As part of the 1.9 Orisa patch, we made a change to how assist scoring was handled to address what we honestly considered to be a bug. Players were getting full assist credit even if the player being assisted did very little to the target. This change, along with other more significant balance changes in the patch, meant that we needed to recalibrate the tuning for the systems that calculate a player’s contribution to the match. This was performed for all heroes several weeks ago, and we’ve already recalibrated once more after the recent 1.10 patch.

The change to the handling of assists also affected how often a player might earn “On Fire” status during a match, but the amount a player is “On Fire” does not directly affect SR adjustments due to player performance. There is some correlation between the two because both systems are trying to measure “How well are you playing?”, but there are significant differences. The determination of being “On Fire” examines not just your own performance, but your performance relative to your teammates. The calculation of your SR adjustment after a match doesn’t look at your teammates, but instead compares you to the performance of other similarly skilled players with that hero across an enormous pool of competitive matches. So, we compare your Genji play to the play of other Genjis, Ana vs. Anas, etc. Since we’re comparing “apples to apples”, we shouldn’t see any kind of support specific bias in SR adjustments due to player performance.
Hmm. It's quite hard to say because we don't know what stats are being gauged.

Overbuff measures average per minute stats while oversumo measures average per life. We don't know which is more accurate.

There's also the relative opponents MMR to take into account.

Or the stats MMR might be relative to the games. Eg. 40% defensive assists of game played.
04/19/2017 04:29 AMPosted by Fershizzy
Hmm. It's quite hard to say because we don't know what stats are being gauged.

Overbuff measures average per minute stats while oversumo measures average per life. We don't know which is more accurate.

There's also the relative opponents MMR to take into account.

Or the stats MMR might be relative to the games. Eg. 40% defensive assists of game played.

Per minute is the way to go and the way I compared myself.
Its the only way to roughly accurately compare to others and other play styles.
While one might have great match stats his matches might just take longer sh he has better match stats than someone completely solo dominating.
Per life might just be a guy playing really save having great per life stats but not doing as much for the match.
Not stating which is preferred. Only guessing which is the system as is.

Personally my view is that comparing relative stats to game is the way to go. Like kill participation percentage or percentage of damage done healed.
I knew it - ZEN is broken sword from dark soul, when this game become CASUAL -just pick ZEN for more "ezgame" expirience. The challange is - PICK SHT TEAMMATES AND WRECK SOLO ENEMY TEAM for ESTUS, i mean SR.
EDIT: Zen ult is reference to praise the sun.
I checked your stats on masteroverwatch it's crazy that you're not gaining as much SR.
If you don't mind me going on a tangent, what do you think makes you get such a high win rate on zen? Is it cuz your ult "directly" counters genji, or you just murder everyone and then rely on ana/mercy for the team healing? Maybe you perma-orb a flanker like genji or tracer?
I feel you, it's been the same for me.
Looking at my Zen stats they seem pretty good yet I lose more than I win: https://www.overbuff.com/players/pc/GHOST-22587?mode=competitive

I may have to pad my stats with more shield and trash damage and sit more on the objective even when it's not the best play. It seems more important than making your team win.
04/19/2017 04:58 AMPosted by Eremoo
I checked your stats on masteroverwatch it's crazy that you're not gaining as much SR.
If you don't mind me going on a tangent, what do you think makes you get such a high win rate on zen? Is it cuz your ult "directly" counters genji, or you just murder everyone and then rely on ana/mercy for the team healing? Maybe you perma-orb a flanker like genji or tracer?

Zen ult is one of the most powerful in the game only overpowered by Ana nade, pharah ult or nano, focus fire combinations. Still I use it really imperfectly, tbh I win cause I have top tier aim and coordinate well. Also I make the hard, impactful and smart kills (or at least I try). Genji tracer can't really flank against me. If they have an exceptional player on their team I kill him.

I never give up and try to win no matter the odds and try to motivate my team even if everyone is being toxic af. So I even win basically lost games. With that since I had to stop que with friends after master I only lost 2 games.
Thanks for the reply. I was only able to peak at 3.9k then went on a massive lose streak and now at 3.5k. Unfortunately I'm not the type of player to stick with 1 character I flex between most tanks and most supports so I don't have a character that I can just "carry" the game with. For that reason I was curious how you got there with zen
04/19/2017 04:06 AMPosted by Tankz
Hmm. This might just be a theory, but maybe blizzard are starting to "punish" people for only playing one hero? Most of the people I see complain, literally only play one hero.


Whoa!! Tankz actually thinking something is wrong with SR gain?? Competitive Mode Conspiracy?? Oh.. I see since the OP is around his SR so this post in his eyes MUST be legit!! And no condescending talk either!! If this were a Bronze, Silver, Gold, Plat, etc... player making this assumption it's funny that he would probably sit there and talk S*^& about "Git Gud" or "This is where you should be!!". I mean.. are you alright man?? This post isn't like you!! WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH TANKZ??? WHO ARE YOU???

I pretty much mained Zen this season too. TBH my SR gains are all over the place with him. I do get more SR from playing Zen than any other of the healers. My theory is because he's the most DPS of all the heals. I commonly will get Elim/Dam Medals as well has Healing Medals. There are games though where I've had 3-4 Silver/Gold medals with a redic "On Fire" time and still end up with 17 SR on a win. Idk.. Its seems more random to me than anything..
04/19/2017 05:34 AMPosted by ItamiGami
04/19/2017 04:58 AMPosted by Eremoo
I checked your stats on masteroverwatch it's crazy that you're not gaining as much SR.
If you don't mind me going on a tangent, what do you think makes you get such a high win rate on zen? Is it cuz your ult "directly" counters genji, or you just murder everyone and then rely on ana/mercy for the team healing? Maybe you perma-orb a flanker like genji or tracer?

Zen ult is one of the most powerful in the game only overpowered by Ana nade, pharah ult or nano, focus fire combinations. Still I use it really imperfectly, tbh I win cause I have top tier aim and coordinate well. Also I make the hard, impactful and smart kills (or at least I try). Genji tracer can't really flank against me. If they have an exceptional player on their team I kill him.

I never give up and try to win no matter the odds and try to motivate my team even if everyone is being toxic af. So I even win basically lost games. With that since I had to stop que with friends after master I only lost 2 games.


I feel you... But you are right its all about that AIM with Zen. I can easily deal with most Heroes in 1v1 situations. IMO he's more of a direct counter to Genji + Tracer than Winston. A good Zen can deal with most flankers without a hitch.. And I won't throw in the worst of situation either. Never give up..
Unfortunately Blizzard seems to have listened to the 10 people who said "my SR is fine" instead of the 200 that said it wasn't.
04/19/2017 06:53 AMPosted by Zaximus
Unfortunately Blizzard seems to have listened to the 10 people who said "my SR is fine" instead of the 200 that said it wasn't.


On Zen I have more luck with SR than any of the other healers.. Idk.. He was far easier to scale SR than it is with Ana, Luico, or Mercy. That's just my experience though. I play all the healers and Zen is by far my Fav..
I actually have swapped over to Zen because I have better matches and gain the most SR when playing Zen. >.>

Granted, you're way the heck up there so who knows.
04/19/2017 06:40 AMPosted by Whistler
04/19/2017 04:06 AMPosted by Tankz
Hmm. This might just be a theory, but maybe blizzard are starting to "punish" people for only playing one hero? Most of the people I see complain, literally only play one hero.


Whoa!! Tankz actually thinking something is wrong with SR gain?? Competitive Mode Conspiracy?? Oh.. I see since the OP is around his SR so this post in his eyes MUST be legit!! And no condescending talk either!! If this were a Bronze, Silver, Gold, Plat, etc... player making this assumption it's funny that he would probably sit there and talk S*^& about "Git Gud" or "This is where you should be!!". I mean.. are you alright man?? This post isn't like you!! WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH TANKZ??? WHO ARE YOU???

I pretty much mained Zen this season too. TBH my SR gains are all over the place with him. I do get more SR from playing Zen than any other of the healers. My theory is because he's the most DPS of all the heals. I commonly will get Elim/Dam Medals as well has Healing Medals. There are games though where I've had 3-4 Silver/Gold medals with a redic "On Fire" time and still end up with 17 SR on a win. Idk.. Its seems more random to me than anything..


I never said anything was wrong? I just stated a theory lulz
Hello fellow zen friend. I too have encountered this whole fire & SR thing since the orisa patch. I was once in the top 200 according to overbuff (if that means anything lol). But since that patch after I noticed, I have barely been playing. Just decaying and playing a few games here and there.

So far this season I've been rocking a 70% winrate with zen, yet barely climbing as I get 18-28SR per win, and 25-40SR per loss.

I only started recording a few games after the decay started - no motivation to climb when its so much harder ;_;. So the SR gains are skewed as I've just been decaying / playing a few games here and there. But the main issue is the fire gain through assists/healing. If you (blizzard) cares to take a look at these videos, you can see the assist fire points I get for assists & healing are abysmal. Most of my fire is generated by either murdering people, or standing on points/payloads.

Seems like healers are being penalized for healing & assisting my team to kill ppl... does that make sense? lol

Twitch
http://www.twitch.tv/zhenzheniszenzen

Overbuff
https://www.overbuff.com/players/pc/zhenzhen-1496/heroes/zenyatta?mode=competitive

Masteroverwatch
https://masteroverwatch.com/profile/pc/us/zhenzhen-1496/heroes/18


@ItamiGami
In other news, BRO CAN YOU TEACH ME YOUR WAYS MAN? I've been looking for a crazy zen to teach me my shortcomings so I can git gudder ;)

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