Supports and Skill Rating

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Posted this in the general discussion thread, posting here for visibility and clarification if I misunderstood:

Wait, doesn't this mean that if you rekt the other team, supports will get less SR not because they didn't perform well, but because they had little chance to, for lack of a better word, pad the healing meters like they would when the game is a bit more intense?

All the while the damage dealers would be above average because they're decimating?

Doesn't that create a scenario where support gets less SR than the damage dealers?

If I'm on the mark, that seems kind of biased.
nice thank for the comment . one question if you are kind enough to answer :

how does the system takes hero swaps into account?

for example . if I start playing Genji in offence carrying a payload . and assuming I do great . but next round half the other team start throwing and only doing useless things like saying 'Hi' and sitting outside of our spawn . then I go friendly (since the match is pretty much over ) and switch to Symetra and don't do any damage , only saying 'Hi' and stuff like that?

would I be better killing them all? would I get different SR for picking different heroes constantly? should I stay the same hero?.
04/18/2017 04:03 PMPosted by Scott Mercer
We’re still seeing anecdotal reports of some players experiencing lower SR gains on wins, but we’ve also been seeing other reports from other support players that their SR gains look correct. Based upon our investigations so far doesn’t look like there’s a broad systemic issue affecting all supports across all competitive matches. There might be a more localized issue affecting a specific hero, or a certain type of play style or game situation. It also might be something completely unexpected, so we’re doing a thorough examination of all the code that affects SR adjustment.

I can understand if someone is underperforming they shouldn't be climbing, and instead dropping. But on the other hand as you settle in to where your skill is at you will settle near a 50% win rate, and that should at least be about where your skill is at. Is it really a good system if someone can perform at least well enough at a skill level to settle into that 50% win rate but still drop in rank due to not performing enough stat wise compared to other people playing the same hero?

While I know it isn't trying to judge rank based on win rate, it just seems weird for when someone settles it should be about 50% win rate, yet they can still rise or fall from there depending on how they compare to others. I can see how this would in theory be good to counter if they're being carried or held back by their teams, but if a bad player is being carried often enough over many many games who is in the wrong spot at that point? If they were underperforming and the rest of their team was at the correct rank more often than not they would lose against a similar ranked team and in turn lose the game and drop.

On one hand we have a team based game. But we are also trying to rank people on personal skill to rank them accurately. On the far ends where a high ranked player is placed to low it does a good job of lifting them out, a low player too high will fall until they reach where they should be. In the eyes of someone near where they should be it starts feeling a bit off. Sitting at a 50% win rate yet dropping SR seems to be weird.

You have a lot more information to go off than the rest of us, so you are probably seeing things that we don't that helps make a lot more sense of it, but it still seems off in some way. For now I'll just see how things go from all points of view and see where it goes from there.
May I suggest a simple fix to the unknown issue. Remove personal performance from the equation, make it a flat gain, loss system. Nobody can try to abuse the system to earn more rank. And it will remove the stigma surrounding support characters. People would focus on winning the game and not padding their statistics.
04/18/2017 05:34 PMPosted by Xilodon
04/18/2017 04:03 PMPosted by Scott Mercer
The calculation of your SR adjustment after a match doesn’t look at your teammates, but instead compares you to the performance of other similarly skilled players with that hero across an enormous pool of competitive matches.


Does the data used for that comparison get purged after a patch that radically changes certain hero mechanics, or general mechanics like the ability to gain fire? If the historical data says that a certain hero averages x% of fire, and then a patch like the most recent one makes it twice as hard for that hero to achieve the same numbers, being compared to that obsolete data could lead to an extended period certain players being deemed subpar for what would have previously been considered average play.


This cannot be repeated enough. System now thinks you're garbage player because you cannot get into fire or get fire from assists because of the changes and you still get compared to all the players who did well pre-patch.

Also, it makes no sense at all to get crap sr still if you actually play well as a healer and then get more sr even if you play a horrible dps or tank. It makes little sense for it to work this way and only tells me that sr gains are skewed and blizz now tries to justify low sr gains for supports.
This does raise some concerns about play styles currently in use or that might be used in the future.
But glad this is being checked out. Hope it all turns out great for all the Heroes.
04/18/2017 04:03 PMPosted by Scott Mercer
The calculation of your SR adjustment after a match doesn’t look at your teammates, but instead compares you to the performance of other similarly skilled players with that hero across an enormous pool of competitive matches. So, we compare your Genji play to the play of other Genjis, Ana vs. Anas, etc. Since we’re comparing “apples to apples”, we shouldn’t see any kind of support specific bias in SR adjustments due to player performance.


How old is this "enormous pool of competitive matches"? Does it contain matches from 1 or 2 months ago? Does it get reset with every patch or every season?

In all the matches before the orisa patch Supports got full score credit for their assists, and thus get a much higher average score than supports post patch.

If you then compare the lower score supports to the full score supports, that would very much explain why supports SR after the patch was heavily affected. You'd be comparing "partial apples" in newer matches to an enormous pool of "full apples".

This issue would slowly fade out over time, but that still means that supports have been missing out on a large amount of SR by getting compared to different apples.
04/18/2017 04:03 PMPosted by Scott Mercer
Over the past few weeks we’ve been reviewing reports from players about how their SR gains after a win appear to be lower when they play as a support. I wanted to share some of the results of the investigations so far and clear up some community misconceptions along the way.

As part of the 1.9 Orisa patch, we made a change to how assist scoring was handled to address what we honestly considered to be a bug. Players were getting full assist credit even if the player being assisted did very little to the target. This change, along with other more significant balance changes in the patch, meant that we needed to recalibrate the tuning for the systems that calculate a player’s contribution to the match. This was performed for all heroes several weeks ago, and we’ve already recalibrated once more after the recent 1.10 patch.

The change to the handling of assists also affected how often a player might earn “On Fire” status during a match, but the amount a player is “On Fire” does not directly affect SR adjustments due to player performance. There is some correlation between the two because both systems are trying to measure “How well are you playing?”, but there are significant differences. The determination of being “On Fire” examines not just your own performance, but your performance relative to your teammates. The calculation of your SR adjustment after a match doesn’t look at your teammates, but instead compares you to the performance of other similarly skilled players with that hero across an enormous pool of competitive matches. So, we compare your Genji play to the play of other Genjis, Ana vs. Anas, etc. Since we’re comparing “apples to apples”, we shouldn’t see any kind of support specific bias in SR adjustments due to player performance.

We’re still seeing anecdotal reports of some players experiencing lower SR gains on wins, but we’ve also been seeing other reports from other support players that their SR gains look correct. Based upon our investigations so far doesn’t look like there’s a broad systemic issue affecting all supports across all competitive matches. There might be a more localized issue affecting a specific hero, or a certain type of play style or game situation. It also might be something completely unexpected, so we’re doing a thorough examination of all the code that affects SR adjustment.

In the meantime, we do appreciate everyone’s continued feedback and reports about this. They do help, we are looking at them, and if we find issues we’ll let you know. Thanks!

thank you! I knew I should be higher then 1500Sr after doing placements as only luico.
I think the biggest problem with this is how are SR point gain is calculated. Am I getting more points for purposefully doing bad plays in order to harvest more points? Am I getting less points for doing good plays that don't give me high point gain?

Doing "well" in this case is largely based on the opinions of the people in charge of how SR is gained.

It is bad when my team hates me and we barely win and I get MORE SR than when I do so well that I get PotG, never need a res, and both teams add me as a friend and vote my card.

It is also bad when my team goes: wait, we had a tracer? I never saw her on the killfeed. And I get more SR than when my team likes me as a support. I get more SR playing poorly as a non-support.

This means that there is an issue with SR gains whether or not it is being admitted to. If the game is only looking at performance (SR points per second or w/e), then you aren't getting a true SR value. For example, the AFK Timer method is obviously going to kill my SR because my team isn't doing damage and barely is taking any damage until it is too late.

For true SR, you need to look at the situation, the playstyle, and more. For example, am I changing my character to match the needs of the team? That needs to be accounted for.
One thing I've always wondered:

Why are we putting so much individual attention on specific actions, and not focusing on wins and losses?

A player's choice of hero should be motivated by the team composition needs, not by the number of points he/she will get by winning. Whether you're on fire or not should not make any difference if what you're doing contributed to winning a match.
Been saying this forever, now you can all shut up and find another excuse to not play support.
One thought I had that I wanted to share in case you didn't consider it. You say you compare that one lucio to all the other lucios, and not the team -- but do you compare the comps? I'm thinking about 'damage meters' in WoW for example, if you took 4 healers to a 15 man raid, vs taking 3 healers, or even 2 when they really knew their stuff, the meters are really hard to compare depending on the type of healer. If you have too many healers, the ones with fast, quick heals will top the meters, but if you had two healers, they are working all the time and able to get up the charts. If we're checking the heals/sec or something in OW, and you have tanks with lots of armor vs big health pools etc, maybe that way just comparing the one healer to the same one healer but in a 3 support comp up against a team that chips a lot vs focus fire... anyway, hope you get what I mean.

And while we're at it, Symettra's shield gen doesn't seem to give any trackable stats. Does that hurt her measurements? If her TP is up, and people are using it that seems to affect her POTGs for example (so probably her on-fire), but if they are regen-ing her shields after ducking for cover for example, we have no way of knowing that I can see.
04/18/2017 06:14 PMPosted by BenjaminWolf
May I suggest a simple fix to the unknown issue. Remove personal performance from the equation, make it a flat gain, loss system. Nobody can try to abuse the system to earn more rank. And it will remove the stigma surrounding support characters. People would focus on winning the game and not padding their statistics.

If it was a flat gain then there would be people don't need to care since they would get high sr gain anyway.
Thank you for noticing our pain XD

I do find all supports getting crapped on by this to be honest. The only other time I got 20+ SR was when I swap to tank or DP or play as a DP Lucio. It's really frustrating especially when it turns out you won the game with your sick wall riding skills to contest point at 2-2 99-99
04/18/2017 04:03 PMPosted by Scott Mercer
The calculation of your SR adjustment after a match doesn’t look at your teammates, but instead compares you to the performance of other similarly skilled players with that hero across an enormous pool of competitive matches. So, we compare your Genji play to the play of other Genjis, Ana vs. Anas, etc. Since we’re comparing “apples to apples”, we shouldn’t see any kind of support specific bias in SR adjustments due to player performance.


Hold up a sec.

Skill when playing as Genji and skill when playing as Ana (or other supports for that matter) are two entirely different things. Each class and hero have their own unique goal when they go into a game; Genji (and any offense hero) is all about getting kills and Ana (and any support hero) is all about supporting her team. Thus, shouldn't the SR they both gain after a match be relative to how well they performed their job? What you lay out here is important, sure, but not as important as how much the class or hero contributes to the game.

To use your analogy, you can compare apples to apples, but isn't it also important how satisfying it is to eat those apples?
04/18/2017 04:03 PMPosted by Scott Mercer
The calculation of your SR adjustment after a match doesn’t look at your teammates, but instead compares you to the performance of other similarly skilled players with that hero across an enormous pool of competitive matches. So, we compare your Genji play to the play of other Genjis, Ana vs. Anas, etc. Since we’re comparing “apples to apples”, we shouldn’t see any kind of support specific bias in SR adjustments due to player performance.


I think that this in itself is the problem the community is perceiving. You can have a match where you roll over the enemy team, then have a game that was a really close tough match. Now, the problem with this is that if you are not putting up huge numbers in comparison with the other players in the skill bracket, you are getting punished. This is why this is a purely support issue, your longer closer games have more chance of putting up the huge numbers and making big plays, but we've all played games where the match was super one sided and in that case there is no way somebody playing Mercy can measure up to an average of the community, even if they didn't play poorly and might have even been influential in the win.

So, the game should come up with a number based on performance against the baseline for your skill level (I don't really have an issue with that part), but throw the results for the whole team into a pot to get an average SR to award to the team (in reality they would use a base number, probably 25, and the system would spit out a correction factor multiplier to change that number based on performance. ex, 25*1.125=28 rounded down. This coding would be pretty easy to implement too, just a modification of that function block, maybe 2 lines of code). No more DPS getting 35 points and the Rein getting 20 because he stood there with his shield up, or Mercy getting shafted because the second support was really good and she barely had to rez.

You could have the system auto balance in the match against the enemy team, so if they got rolled or if it was really close it would reflect this in the SR gains and losses rather than right now where they can't really do that as much because they are stuck looking at the average for that skill level, not this specific game.

Bottom line, the game you just played and how you play as a team should matter more than how you matched against the community.
i'm interested to see if there's any further updates with this.

Past seven games, won 4, lost 3, all support, ended up exactly where i started. not terrible. pretty much gold heals every game. it is frustrating that after winning more games than losing, im not at a surplus of points at all.
I haven't experienced any lower SR
Mercy main 3700 SR
I have noticed on shorter games I get less SR for a win. Does the calculation track on stats adjusted for match length?

If my team steamrolls, my stats are going to be much much lower than if it's a close dragged out game with multiple rounds.

Again, I think most people believe a win is a win and individual stats only lead to toxicity in the community. Likewise a loss is a loss. It would save a lot of time, effort, and ambiguity from the community perspective to just leave it plain and simple. +20 SR for a win, -20 SR for a loss. If your win percentage is greater than 50%, you level up. Currently that's not necessarily going to happen.

Consider it.
I'd like to chime in with a possible problem. I don't experience this so much in comp matches where there's great communication, or I've queued with a team that plays well together. But instead this is a problem in matches where everyone seems to be on a completely different page. Disclaimer: I don't claim to know how the SR algorithm works.

In games where the team is incredibly uncoordinated and people are trickling into the enemy team, it becomes incredibly difficult to do anything as a support hero. It's still possible for a good DPS to lay down good damage and it's still possible for a tank to block damage. But for a healer it's really hard to put in heals when each person trickling in dies right away.

Is there anything to be done to counteract this besides switching to DPS or asking for a role shuffle (which doesn't typically happen in those sort of out of sync games)?

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