THE PROBLEM WITH NERFING PHARMECY

General Discussion
Lately I have made multiple posts on pharmecy and have learned more about it:

What I've established:
1. Pharmecy is gamechanging and needs some form of nerfing
2. A lot of the ideas for nerfing Pharmecy have too much of an effect on pharah or mercy
3. Mercy players are very vocal and don't want a nerf


Either way, people are annoyed with pharmecy and here are my opinions and solutions.
1. I think part of the solution to pharmecy is people need to except it and learn to counter it
2. Nonetheless, it needs some nerfing to decrease its impact on the game. My idea which I talked about in the following post: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20755566744.
Is that Angelic descent should have an increase in speed so mercy can be less clingy to pharah. This is not a perfect solution and perhaps might not be a solution. Nonetheless, its the best idea I could come up with.
3. I am confident Blizzard will find a suitable "nerf" and most people agree it is necessary.

This is a fun post on mercy to lighten the mood:
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20755766673#post-1

I already know I am going to get hate, but these are my beliefs.

Summary:
There doesn't seem to be a perfect nerf which satisfies everyone but one is definitely necessary as many players see pharmecy as an issue which ends up destroying the team. It is relatively hard to deal with but people still need to get used to it. Either way some sort of nerf is needed and I hope Blizzard find something suitable
I really dont see what the fuss is about, two people working together are going to be strong together? People need to stop treating Pharah and Mercy as one player and accept that two working together will be stronger.
People's satisfaction should not be a major part of balance discussion. I don't care that you are a bad Mercy player who can't handle a mobility nerf, it needs to happen regardless.

They nerfed D.va for reasons that people didn't want to hear, and the same needs to happen with Mercy. I stopped playing her because she's too strong and it's boring when you don't feel any challenge playing a hero.
Pharmecy isn't a problem. Sorry but it isn't. Its a player skill and coordination issue. If it was such a problem you'd see it dominate in pro play, and it doesn't.
06/09/2017 07:17 PMPosted by Colen
I really dont see what the fuss is about, two people working together are going to be strong together? People need to stop treating Pharah and Mercy as one player and accept that two working together will be stronger.

The problem comes when McCree and 76 working together can't get either of the two before they duck behind cover or whatever. At least in my rank, which obviously isn't high at all

It's simply more beneficial to get your own damn Pharah at that point.
I think the problem is that for the consoles it's too hard to hit but on PC it's not that big of a deal. This is probably why the issue is split like it is if you look at the people that hate it they're mostly on a console. Maybe they can do something for consoles only like they did with torb's turret a while back.
06/09/2017 07:17 PMPosted by Colen
I really dont see what the fuss is about, two people working together are going to be strong together? People need to stop treating Pharah and Mercy as one player and accept that two working together will be stronger.

Coming from a guy who literally has 97% of his hours on pharah, ok.
06/09/2017 07:21 PMPosted by Balsty
People's satisfaction should not be a major part of balance discussion. I don't care that you are a bad Mercy player who can't handle a mobility nerf, it needs to happen regardless.

They nerfed D.va for reasons that people didn't want to hear, and the same needs to happen with Mercy. I stopped playing her because she's too strong and it's boring when you don't feel any challenge playing a hero.


Why not instead of looking at how other heros were nerfed, look at how Mercy measures up to the other healers? Because, right now Lucio is the best hero in the game, Ana has the best burst healing, and an amazing kit, and Zen's Discord makes him greatness ballsonified. If you nerfed Mercy, then she'd fall below the rest of the healers once again, because the others bring so much more to the table.

Also, ask the question: Is Mercy OP if Pharah is not being played?
06/09/2017 07:17 PMPosted by Colen
I really dont see what the fuss is about, two people working together are going to be strong together? People need to stop treating Pharah and Mercy as one player and accept that two working together will be stronger.


Because you typically need 3 players to counter the PharMercy. Generally two hitscans, or maybe one -amazing- Widow on a map that favours her, and then either a Zenyatta, or Mercy (or both). I've had teams run double hitscan with a Zenyatta discording the Pharah or Mercy, or double hitscan with a Mercy boosting one of them. Or teams where we have one hitscan, and the Mercy and Zen are helping them out.

If you need 3 heroes to deal with 2 - or 1 exceptionally skilled player on a map that favours them to deal 2, who are not using the same amount of skill and can function on almost any map - there is an issue.

06/09/2017 07:47 PMPosted by Fulmen
06/09/2017 07:21 PMPosted by Balsty
People's satisfaction should not be a major part of balance discussion. I don't care that you are a bad Mercy player who can't handle a mobility nerf, it needs to happen regardless.

They nerfed D.va for reasons that people didn't want to hear, and the same needs to happen with Mercy. I stopped playing her because she's too strong and it's boring when you don't feel any challenge playing a hero.


Why not instead of looking at how other heros were nerfed, look at how Mercy measures up to the other healers? Because, right now Lucio is the best hero in the game, Ana has the best burst healing, and an amazing kit, and Zen's Discord makes him greatness ballsonified. If you nerfed Mercy, then she'd fall below the rest of the healers once again, because the others bring so much more to the table.

Also, ask the question: Is Mercy OP if Pharah is not being played?


Actually, you could probably nerf Mercy's Glide in a way that she can't just constantly fly to the Pharah and be chained at the hip to her. Then buff her in some other way (Glide distance/speed?) to compensate.
06/09/2017 07:14 PMPosted by Rahomy
Lately I have made multiple posts on pharmecy and have learned more about it:

What I've established:
1. Pharmecy is gamechanging and needs some form of nerfing
2. A lot of the ideas for nerfing Pharmecy have too much of an effect on pharah or mercy
3. Mercy players are very vocal and don't want a nerf


Either way, people are annoyed with pharmecy and here are my opinions and solutions.
1. I think part of the solution to pharmecy is people need to except it and learn to counter it
2. Nonetheless, it needs some nerfing to decrease its impact on the game. My idea which I talked about in the following post: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20755566744.
Is that Angelic descent should have an increase in speed so mercy can be less clingy to pharah. This is not a perfect solution and perhaps might not be a solution. Nonetheless, its the best idea I could come up with.
3. I am confident Blizzard will find a suitable "nerf" and most people agree it is necessary.

This is a fun post on mercy to lighten the mood:
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20755766673#post-1

I already know I am going to get hate, but these are my beliefs.

Summary:
There doesn't seem to be a perfect nerf which satisfies everyone but one is definitely necessary as many players see pharmecy as an issue which ends up destroying the team. It is relatively hard to deal with but people still need to get used to it. Either way some sort of nerf is needed and I hope Blizzard find something suitable


there is......

just check out this simple geometry math

[Direct nerf Pharmercy] = "Welcome back triple tank..... you're getting bigger and more barrier (Orisa)"

[Indirect nerf AKA buff hardcounter] = The Game Is Balanced (e. g: All turrets can intercept large basic attack projectile like pharah rocket, junk bomb, sym RMB etc ala Patriot Missile) or buff up others fall off, you name it.
06/09/2017 07:17 PMPosted by Colen
I really dont see what the fuss is about, two people working together are going to be strong together? People need to stop treating Pharah and Mercy as one player and accept that two working together will be stronger.


Imagine Mercy+S76, or Mercy+McCree, Mercy+Widow, Mercy+junkmouse, Mercy+symmetra, Mercy+anyone else that plays a prominent, impactful role. They would require at least 2 to counter. Nobody complains about these combos because they don't provide relative safety for Mercy. However people lose their minds when Mercy rezzes a team wipe.

Pharah+Mercy isn't a problem, there isn't an obvious hard counter for this combo and the perception (feeling) is that you need an entire team effort to counter it. In reality, you need a similar counter of 2-3 (just as with any Mercy combo) to efficiently counter; which in reality is fair and balanced. However it may not feel great to go up against. However there is no reasonable way to nerf one or both heros to make it "feel" fun to play against. It truly is a matter of "git gud" or practicing your counters, and team coordination to shut down a pharahmercy combo. There isn't anything wrong or overpowered about that in a team-based game like OW.
06/09/2017 07:17 PMPosted by Colen
I really dont see what the fuss is about, two people working together are going to be strong together? People need to stop treating Pharah and Mercy as one player and accept that two
working together will be stronger.


giving dude an upvote.

i m just a bronzie who face smurfette Pharmercy GM everyday. i do realize it's a two hero on attack so i managed to retaliate by picking up bastion, pocketed with mercy. its 2 vs 2.......

and it works. just need to approach em closer since his gun spread pretty off the mark.
06/09/2017 07:48 PMPosted by Balderich
06/09/2017 07:17 PMPosted by Colen
I really dont see what the fuss is about, two people working together are going to be strong together? People need to stop treating Pharah and Mercy as one player and accept that two working together will be stronger.


Because you typically need 3 players to counter the PharMercy. Generally two hitscans, or maybe one -amazing- Widow on a map that favours her, and then either a Zenyatta, or Mercy (or both). I've had teams run double hitscan with a Zenyatta discording the Pharah or Mercy, or double hitscan with a Mercy boosting one of them. Or teams where we have one hitscan, and the Mercy and Zen are helping them out.

If you need 3 heroes to deal with 2 - or 1 exceptionally skilled player on a map that favours them to deal 2, who are not using the same amount of skill and can function on almost any map - there is an issue.

06/09/2017 07:47 PMPosted by Fulmen
...

Why not instead of looking at how other heros were nerfed, look at how Mercy measures up to the other healers? Because, right now Lucio is the best hero in the game, Ana has the best burst healing, and an amazing kit, and Zen's Discord makes him greatness ballsonified. If you nerfed Mercy, then she'd fall below the rest of the healers once again, because the others bring so much more to the table.

Also, ask the question: Is Mercy OP if Pharah is not being played?


Actually, you could probably nerf Mercy's Glide in a way that she can't just constantly fly to the Pharah and be chained at the hip to her. Then buff her in some other way (Glide distance/speed?) to compensate.
Thats not a bad idea. From a Mercy pov
here's a pharah balance:

splash damage does a lot less damage but covers a wider area

her e sends you flying if it hits RIGHT next to you not from 10 feet away instead of the other way around it currently has.
06/09/2017 07:17 PMPosted by Colen
I really dont see what the fuss is about, two people working together are going to be strong together? People need to stop treating Pharah and Mercy as one player and accept that two working together will be stronger.
What's easier spamming Lehigh to fly to a phara, or trying to turn bubbles on genjis to get 40 charge? And the easier teamwork gets more rewards. Pharamercy is pretty broke.
06/09/2017 07:17 PMPosted by Colen
I really dont see what the fuss is about, two people working together are going to be strong together? People need to stop treating Pharah and Mercy as one player and accept that two working together will be stronger.


the fuss is that these two "working together" aren't working. the size of the hitbox of the mercy abilities on the pharah and the damage box of the pharah abilities are the size of a fcking 3 car garage compared to what the other team is trying to deal with.

When you add in that attention, like ammo, time, life, etc.., is a resource that the combo is full of due to the fact that they have to spend so much less of it aiming, positioning, and communicating than any combo to counter this it gets a little bit ridiculous.

how good would this combo still be if

*****WHILE PHARAH IS IN THE AIR*****

The ability box for mercy's abilities on pharah were the same size of the hitbox everyone else is trying to shoot at. (AIMING IN A FIRST PERSON SHOOTER)

If mercy's guardian angel went on cooldown while hitting the ability without being on pharahs hitbox. (NO MORE SPAMMING WITH YOUR MOUTH OPEN)

if mercy's heal didn't track the pharah more than anyone elses hitscan does.
(HAVE TO LOOK PAST YOUR NOSE TO PLAY YOUR CHARACTER NOW)

this doesn't change any of the throughput or change any of the synergy either of these two characters have with any other character currently in the game but drastically taxes their attention resource when used specifically in this combo to bring it to a level that makes it at least feel like were both playing the same game.

I don't want to nerf either of these two characters but the way it is right now two barely functioning autistic children who don't even speak the same language can play this combo well.
06/09/2017 07:47 PMPosted by Fulmen
06/09/2017 07:21 PMPosted by Balsty
People's satisfaction should not be a major part of balance discussion. I don't care that you are a bad Mercy player who can't handle a mobility nerf, it needs to happen regardless.

They nerfed D.va for reasons that people didn't want to hear, and the same needs to happen with Mercy. I stopped playing her because she's too strong and it's boring when you don't feel any challenge playing a hero.


Why not instead of looking at how other heros were nerfed, look at how Mercy measures up to the other healers? Because, right now Lucio is the best hero in the game, Ana has the best burst healing, and an amazing kit, and Zen's Discord makes him greatness ballsonified. If you nerfed Mercy, then she'd fall below the rest of the healers once again, because the others bring so much more to the table.

Also, ask the question: Is Mercy OP if Pharah is not being played?

The same applies with Pharah. She synergizes so poorly with all the other healers, more so than all the other dps heroes, because she'll usually be outside of Lúcio's range, and Ana and Zen have to sacrifice a huge chunk of their awareness to heal her. They are too dependent on each other to be viable, and a lot of people can't acknowledge that, without Mercy Pharah is meh at best (unless both the healers and the Pharah are really good) and without Pharah Mercy is a punching bag at best.

While the power of this synergy should be brought down to a similar level of other in-game synergies (or alternatively other synergies can be buffed), both heroes individual strengths should at the very least remain untouched.
Its a player skill issue.


Yeah man, those multiple-seasons-in-a-row Top 500 players really do suck and have no skill!
i don't get it.... why o/p got downvoted? she / he's neither on any side.

i m giving this dude an upvote.

06/09/2017 08:37 PMPosted by DVa
Its a player skill issue.


Yeah man, those multiple-seasons-in-a-row Top 500 players really do suck and have no skill!


at least they earn their top spot honestly and knows how to counter Pharmercy due to their hardship own decent skills ...... unlike paid diamond or master, they climb up via triple tank meta and out of sudden, the Pharmercy meta shake em up from their sweet wet dreams.
06/09/2017 07:26 PMPosted by Justicecan
06/09/2017 07:17 PMPosted by Colen
I really dont see what the fuss is about, two people working together are going to be strong together? People need to stop treating Pharah and Mercy as one player and accept that two working together will be stronger.

The problem comes when McCree and 76 working together can't get either of the two before they duck behind cover or whatever. At least in my rank, which obviously isn't high at all

It's simply more beneficial to get your own damn Pharah at that point.


McCree and Soldier aint the counter. Widowmaker and Mercy is.

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