Love Mystery Heroes - a few critiques

General Discussion
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I would personally prefer to allow hero stacking, but definitely have weighted heroes instead of completely random. Healers are always a necessity in overwatch to have a functioning team, and being deprived of one for the entire game is not very fun.
06/08/2017 08:44 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
We have a number of Mystery Heroes fixes on our to-do list. We're very eager to get to them but it just hasn't bubbled to the top of our priority list yet. We definitely want to get rid of suiciding to force a hero switch. We will also remove the "Assemble Heroes" wait time as there is no reason for it in this mode. We have some other improvements in mind as well.

I am curious how the community as a whole feels about some of the ideas you bring up. I know that it frustrates me when the other team ends up with 5 D.Va's. I also get frustrated when the enemy team has a balanced team comp and my team comp is less balanced. But perhaps that is part of the charm of the mode?

How do you guys feel about a purely random system (such as it works now) versus a mostly random system where we try to limit stacking and nudge the team comps towards something more reasonable? I can see arguments for both ways being compelling to different people.


Please make it so there's a 99.99% chance of people getting torb on both defense and attack.
06/08/2017 08:44 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
We have a number of Mystery Heroes fixes on our to-do list. We're very eager to get to them but it just hasn't bubbled to the top of our priority list yet. We definitely want to get rid of suiciding to force a hero switch. We will also remove the "Assemble Heroes" wait time as there is no reason for it in this mode. We have some other improvements in mind as well.

I am curious how the community as a whole feels about some of the ideas you bring up. I know that it frustrates me when the other team ends up with 5 D.Va's. I also get frustrated when the enemy team has a balanced team comp and my team comp is less balanced. But perhaps that is part of the charm of the mode?

How do you guys feel about a purely random system (such as it works now) versus a mostly random system where we try to limit stacking and nudge the team comps towards something more reasonable? I can see arguments for both ways being compelling to different people.


I think there should be a few small rules in the algorithm:

1. No duplicates. If we feel duplicates are valuable, maybe only a pair.
2. A healer value that's applied to the algorithm. All heroes should get a value based on how "healery" they are, and the algorithm should try to keep the total healer value of the group inside a certain range, where two full healers with no alternate healers would be acceptable, but so would, say, a Sombra, Soldier, and Zenyatta. At the moment, it's possible (though unlikely) to have no healers for an entire game, and that literally ruins the game. On the other hand, having too many healers can also be a problem; either people are smart enough to get themselves killed (which really shouldn't happen, in my opinion), or people keep each other alive too well and the team loses from having too little damage (this is a big issue on offense). This could also be applied to tanks, but not having enough tanks is a much less obnoxious problem.
3. No consecutive repicks of the exact same hero. It's okay for me to have to play a hero I hate, but it sucks when I have to play it twice in a row. It's also fantastic to get a hero I love, but I also shouldn't get that hero twice in a row.

Some people may think this won't go far enough, but Mystery Heroes is never meant to be perfectly balanced and it's supposed to push people out of their comfort zone. These rules will at least ensure that there will be some healing and some of the frustration will be removed from the mode.
I think having things be completely random is part of the fun of the mode! Outside of people who kill themselves to switch heros, should be kept as is. If you want to manager your team comp, go elsewhere.
I am someone who does not like to play as D.VA, yet I get her so often. For an All-Random mode, I have a feeling as if the game is saying "PLAY D.VA YOU SCRUB! PLAY HER! PLAAAAAY HEEEEEEER!" :D

I am definitely curious to see the changes to Mystery Heroes. I play it a lot since it's so relaxing and gives me the opportunity to play other heroes and get better at them without anyone pointing fingers.
MOSTLY RANDOM sounds good to me.
I got 2 or 3 Mystery Heroes matches today where the opposing grout had like 2 Orisa, a D.va, a Reinhardt and Ana (and one else I can't remember). We got wrecked. That's no fun if you lose the first point and then the other team has 8 (!) minutes left to get the second one (which they didn't need, of course).

And hours played on heros should count for the global stats. Really!
06/08/2017 08:44 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan


How do you guys feel about a purely random system (such as it works now) versus a mostly random system where we try to limit stacking and nudge the team comps towards something more reasonable? I can see arguments for both ways being compelling to different people.


Purely random is better!
06/08/2017 08:44 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
I am curious how the community as a whole feels about some of the ideas you bring up. I know that it frustrates me when the other team ends up with 5 D.Va's. I also get frustrated when the enemy team has a balanced team comp and my team comp is less balanced. But perhaps that is part of the charm of the mode?


There is no "charm" of running into a grinder like this one:
http://i.imgur.com/Xy3XW5z.jpg

The opposing team started the match with two Roadhogs and got two more within the first minute. It was nothing but being hooked and one shot. No chance getting near the point and towards the end of the match they just started spawn camping and OHKO'ing people as soon as they got out of the door. Nothing we got could come close to even putting a dent in the constant hook and heals they had.

That was my breaking point with MH. I was already frustrated with the mode because there are too many times where it doesn't truly feel "Mystery". Although anecdotal, it always felt like the game started rewarding the losing team with stall comps. Any time I was on an attacking team that managed to take point A and push point B on a 2CP map, the defense would suddenly have at least two to three tanks and at least one turret character (Torb or Sym). On the opposite end, when I was on a losing defending team, I was suddenly rotating from tank to tank to tank. In multiple matches where we were trying to defend point B or halt a payload, I would get back-to-back D.VAs, Reins, or Orisas.

It lost any charm it had after the first week because it just became "which team got the best tank stack" or "which team got a 3 Mercy stack".
06/08/2017 08:44 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
We definitely want to get rid of suiciding to force a hero switch.


Best Mystery Heroes change ever. Thanks, Jeph!

I am curious how the community as a whole feels about some of the ideas you bring up. I know that it frustrates me when the other team ends up with 5 D.Va's. I also get frustrated when the enemy team has a balanced team comp and my team comp is less balanced. But perhaps that is part of the charm of the mode?

How do you guys feel about a purely random system (such as it works now) versus a mostly random system where we try to limit stacking and nudge the team comps towards something more reasonable? I can see arguments for both ways being compelling to different people.


As a Mystery Heroes aficionado, the charm of the mode is the randomness of it.

But it can get frustrating when the other team is chocked full of tanks and yours is full of support heroes.

My suggestion is to split the difference between total randomness and forcing a comp. Because people would start gaming this system to always force other onto tanks or healers by doing stuff that gets their team killed, etc.

There's a few ways to do this.

1. If a lot of one roll gets randomized on first pick, the system weights the chances that you'll reroll as another role. This runs the chance of people trying to game the system again, but would still guarantee the chance that you might get that 5th dps character even though your team needs a healer.

2. Limit the number of duplicate heroes that can be rolled by your team. Maybe not to the limits of QP or comp, but maybe that you can only ever end up with two D.Vas instead of six.

3. Limit the number of duplicate classes that can be rolled by the system. Maybe you limit the classes that you can end up with at three. So you can only ever have three tanks on your team at any time, but you don't end up with a six stack of support characters. This might cause issues with the arbitrary categories of Defense and Offense as you could still get a full team of DPS characters.

Note that I am definitely against the suggestion of people being allowed to exempt certain characters from their pick list. There are characters I hate playing, and ones I am trash at. But that's just part of the fun of Mystery Heroes.
I think pseudo-random system that forces you to play every heroes in the pool would be good, like you will have less change to get the hero that you already played so you have less chance to get the same hero as previous one and a higher chance for playing all heroes in the pool.

In addition, allowing defending team to change their hero prior to the game start by suicide is feel a bit unfair. I think suicide before game start shouldn't change your hero at all.
06/08/2017 08:38 AMPosted by primordia
Second, hero stacking is very annoying when you can't choose counters so perhaps only one of each hero per team?

Disagree with this, it's part of the appeal. It's sort of like how total mayhem is now. Heroes are ridiculous and that's the fun. With mystery heroes, you just apply the concept to comps

06/08/2017 08:38 AMPosted by primordia
Third, maybe bring a rudimentary team comp into the picture with some balancing algorithms I'm not smart enough to implement.

See above
06/08/2017 08:47 AMPosted by iTz2GodlY
I personally believe this mode would be best if mostly random, but would (1) increase the chances of a tank or healer if your team has little to none, and (2) decrease the chances of a hero if that hero is already in play on your team.


06/08/2017 08:46 AMPosted by Acestial
I would like the mostly random system in all honesty if it stacked and nudged the team comp to be more reasonable for both teams. What is everyone else thoughts on this?

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I'd be ok with this, so long as it isn't forced(100% chance). That said, mystery heroes is perfectly fine as is and doesn't need any adjustment.

Glad to hear about the suicide thing.
Limit hero stacking to 1 double. Once your team has 2 of any character, only unique characters can be assigned. Don't worry about team composition, that's part of the fun.
I don't think I'd like forced healers. Say I end up with healer at the start-- well when I die I'm only going to get other healers because I'm the only healer and the team needs a healer.
I prefer crazy random! It is fun and more like a game, versus the whole super serious, team comp meta stuff in the other game modes. I just want to run around, be silly, and kill lots of people :)
06/08/2017 08:44 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
We have a number of Mystery Heroes fixes on our to-do list. We're very eager to get to them but it just hasn't bubbled to the top of our priority list yet. We definitely want to get rid of suiciding to force a hero switch. We will also remove the "Assemble Heroes" wait time as there is no reason for it in this mode. We have some other improvements in mind as well.

I am curious how the community as a whole feels about some of the ideas you bring up. I know that it frustrates me when the other team ends up with 5 D.Va's. I also get frustrated when the enemy team has a balanced team comp and my team comp is less balanced. But perhaps that is part of the charm of the mode?

How do you guys feel about a purely random system (such as it works now) versus a mostly random system where we try to limit stacking and nudge the team comps towards something more reasonable? I can see arguments for both ways being compelling to different people.


I agree that the purely random system can feel frustrating, however, the only limitation I would think is reasonable is a cap of 2x of the same hero. Maybe even a 1 hero limit, after all, we have No Limits for a reason...

Removing the countdown is obvious of course, additionally, I strongly believe that ult charge should be retained between deaths. People are used to keeping ult charge when dying, and it would make for an interesting and unpredictable dynamic when you don't know what ult a character might come back with. Losing the ult charge with every death just #feelsbadman

Glad to hear you are considering changes however, this is very encouraging.
06/08/2017 08:44 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
We have a number of Mystery Heroes fixes on our to-do list. We're very eager to get to them but it just hasn't bubbled to the top of our priority list yet. We definitely want to get rid of suiciding to force a hero switch. We will also remove the "Assemble Heroes" wait time as there is no reason for it in this mode. We have some other improvements in mind as well.

I am curious how the community as a whole feels about some of the ideas you bring up. I know that it frustrates me when the other team ends up with 5 D.Va's. I also get frustrated when the enemy team has a balanced team comp and my team comp is less balanced. But perhaps that is part of the charm of the mode?

How do you guys feel about a purely random system (such as it works now) versus a mostly random system where we try to limit stacking and nudge the team comps towards something more reasonable? I can see arguments for both ways being compelling to different people.


Honestly I think that Mystery Heroes should always put one player in each "class". So at the very least, every team would have one Offense/Defense/Tank/Healer. It would still be random who becomes what, and etc. but at least you would have one of every role, even if the random choices don't quite synergize.

Stacking wouldn't matter nearly as much at that point too, since you'll never see 4 D.Va's. 3 would be the max and it'd be rather rare.

And if people honestly hate that idea, and rebel against the notion of putting that kind of limitation in the game mode? Well perhaps a simple "limit 2" for stacking could help. You might still end up with a team of all support going up against all tanks, but it'd be better than Live.

I think if the mode's randomization had some of these limitations, games wouldn't feel like massive wins or losses every single time and you'd have a better chance of getting "close" games.

As for the minor QoL fixes? I can't wait to play MH where there's no assembly screen and players can't simply suicide to get their main.

TLDR; I think that with a few fixes, nudging the mode away from full on randomness, it could make the mode more fun to play and more worthy of being in the arcade rather than in custom games lol.
I dont think that a balanced team comp is the main way to victory in this mode. The most unbalanced thing i see in Mystery heroes is when someone gets one of his mains. I see this in myself too, the difference is crazy. A idea could be to try out a version where noone could randomly get any of his top5 most played heroes.

Could be made to include heroes above certain ammount of hours. If for example one has a top5 that looks like this: 150 hours of genji, 100 hours soldier, 50 hours hanzo, 10 hours mcCree, and 3 hours mercy... the system would remove only genji, soldier and hanzo from the random hero pool. Also, the system could be dynamic. Maybe placing more value in recently played hours in certain heroes, for example: You have 50 hours of Hanzo in season1 and only 10 after that? Those 50 hours are weighted to matter as much as 10 hours of hanzo played in season4 would.

Anyway, if we wanted to fix comp problems.... You could make it a little less random by forcing the system to have at least one player always randomly get healer and another one randomly get tank from each team.
06/08/2017 08:44 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
We have a number of Mystery Heroes fixes on our to-do list. We're very eager to get to them but it just hasn't bubbled to the top of our priority list yet. We definitely want to get rid of suiciding to force a hero switch. We will also remove the "Assemble Heroes" wait time as there is no reason for it in this mode. We have some other improvements in mind as well.

I am curious how the community as a whole feels about some of the ideas you bring up. I know that it frustrates me when the other team ends up with 5 D.Va's. I also get frustrated when the enemy team has a balanced team comp and my team comp is less balanced. But perhaps that is part of the charm of the mode?

How do you guys feel about a purely random system (such as it works now) versus a mostly random system where we try to limit stacking and nudge the team comps towards something more reasonable? I can see arguments for both ways being compelling to different people.


I think that after someone dies and they switch, they should retain at least a portion of their ult charge. I once played the attacking side of Watchpoint Gibraltar and my team got stuck after the second checkpoint. Over and over, the enemy team had ults to throw at us but I hardly ever was able to ult myself after being killed too early again and again. I don't think I ever ulted after that point actually.
No changes please. I like the mode as it is, totally random. Blessed be the RNG.

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