"We can't buff Defense heroes, they'll stomp low ranks"

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Highly Rated
I'll just....... leave this here

https://playoverwatch.com/en-us/heroes/pharah/
Highly Rated
No game should cater to low ranks for balancing. Ever. Bastion, Torbjorn and Junkrat should not exist in their current states.
07/15/2017 07:23 AMPosted by Ixron
No game should cater to low ranks for balancing. Ever. Bastion, Torbjorn and Junkrat should not exist in their current states.

But they're dying for buff right now like half of them are troll pick or throw.
07/15/2017 07:23 AMPosted by Ixron
No game should cater to low ranks for balancing. Ever. Bastion, Torbjorn and Junkrat should not exist in their current states.

If they want to keep the game casual they kind of have to.

It's a big mistake imo because the casual(quick play) format is literally the competitive format, and it's not really a casual format. It's 6v6 and the maps are small, teamwork and picking the correct hero is the core of the game there's nothing casual about it.

So yeah it's a bad decision to cater to the low ranks.
07/15/2017 07:25 AMPosted by Whatever
07/15/2017 07:23 AMPosted by Ixron
No game should cater to low ranks for balancing. Ever. Bastion, Torbjorn and Junkrat should not exist in their current states.

But they're dying for buff right now like half of them are troll pick or throw.
We're saying the same thing, I agree with you. Mei is the only one in a decent spot, mostly thanks to her stalling potential.

Aside from her it's not even half of them we're talking about, literally 5 out of 6 heroes are the manifestation of a bad joke. "Wouldn't it be cool if we introduced an entire category of troll picks?"

Hanzo and Widowmaker are good in the right hands, but they're countered so easily regardless of meta that you can't pick them. You may be good with them, but with that skill you will do 10 times better with any other hero.

Junkrat, Torbjorn and Bastion on the other hand are on a whole other level. They just defy description.
I really like Torb and Junkrat.

I have no idea how to balance them across all skill levels.
Bastian, Junkrat and Torb are good against bad or uncoordinated teams but uneffective otherwise, Widow and Hanzo are either carrying or throwing every game, at least Mei can be a useful off-tank.
07/15/2017 07:38 AMPosted by turtlebomb
Bastian, Junkrat and Torb are good against bad or uncoordinated teams
Which tend to become more rare the higher you go, and frankly let's be honest here: getting good at Overwatch isn't difficult, at all. You'll be bad and uncoordinated for a rather short period. By the time you got the hang of things and learned the maps and matchups, the Defense roster has already become a joke.

If someone can't get good enough to beat pubstompers, tough luck. Overwatch isn't for you, pack up and leave. The game's balance can't die because of a minority who can't beat Bastion, a stationary turret for god's sake.
07/15/2017 07:38 AMPosted by turtlebomb
Widow and Hanzo are either carrying or throwing every game
They are the only ones in a decent spot, along with Mei who is up there with the rest of the roster: meta-dependent but good enough not to be a troll pick. Hanzo and Widowmaker are plagued by the fact that they are countered exceptionally easily, including map design in most cases. Flankers destroy them 9 out of 10 times.
tfw mei will never be meta.
07/15/2017 07:23 AMPosted by Ixron
No game should cater to low ranks for balancing. Ever. Bastion, Torbjorn and Junkrat should not exist in their current states.


The thing is, if you pick those heroes in comp in gold or silver, you will get flamed so hard.
So they aren't even strong in low ranks.
07/15/2017 07:32 AMPosted by HerrBöse
07/15/2017 07:23 AMPosted by Ixron
No game should cater to low ranks for balancing. Ever. Bastion, Torbjorn and Junkrat should not exist in their current states.

If they want to keep the game casual they kind of have to.

It's a big mistake imo because the casual(quick play) format is literally the competitive format, and it's not really a casual format. It's 6v6 and the maps are small, teamwork and picking the correct hero is the core of the game there's nothing casual about it.

So yeah it's a bad decision to cater to the low ranks.

Honestly considering they seem to be trying to make Overwatch a competitive Esport FPS. They should be balancing around pro play. Where the skills and tactics are used and refined enough to be called pro play, because they learned the game to a state where they can show the true balance of said game. People are called low tier, because that's their level of play, not anything wrong with it at all, but they shouldn't be used to define balance patches if they aren't good enough to play the game at its fullest.

It might sound elitist, but it should be seen as lower tier players have more to learn, not that the game has to be changed for them especially in one with a growing pro scene.
07/15/2017 07:23 AMPosted by Ixron
No game should cater to low ranks for balancing. Ever. Bastion, Torbjorn and Junkrat should not exist in their current states.


Casual games make billions by doing just that, and OW is a casual game. If 15 million casuals are getting farmed by Pharmercy, it's obviously going to take priority over balancing for 500 people at the top. That principle only makes sense for pure competitive games like Quake.
07/15/2017 07:48 AMPosted by Oizen
tfw mei will never be meta.
I firmly believe that everything has a possibility.
07/15/2017 07:55 AMPosted by CptBlood
People are called low tier, because that's their level of play, not anything wrong with it at all, but they shouldn't be used to define balance patches if they aren't good enough to play the game at its fullest.

It might sound elitist, but it should be seen as lower tier players have more to learn, not that the game has to be changed for them especially in one with a growing pro scene.
Around a year ago League of Legends' balance designer claimed that they balance the game
"towards players at the upper end of mastery, which we currently believe to be around platinum and above.” Going lower down than that, and the quirks and defects of individual play styles make it prohibitively difficult to evaluate the game—at least when it comes to specific gameplay balance adjustments.
And I agree with him. League of Legends' balance isn't perfect, not by any stretch of the imagination, but there aren't really many heroes that are considered literal troll picks, and if there are they get reworked.

Blizzard should definitely balance the game around tournament play, but they shouldn't ignore the upper end of the community. It is debatable where said upper end would be, some argue it's Diamond, some say it's Master and above.

Whatever is considered high level of play, that's what the game should be balanced around. They shouldn't cater to exceptionally low tiers like Bronze or Silver, where games are decided by which team has the lowest amount of tantrum-throwing charity cases.
07/15/2017 07:57 AMPosted by Hexen
Casual games make billions by doing just that, and OW is a casual game.
I agree, but they can make even more money through E-Sports at that point. As well as adding a ton more cosmetics while they're at it. They're wasting a lot of potential.
Torb is difficult to buff since most of his kit is passive with his turret being the only way to help his team unless you go charging in or can really hit those single fire shots. The only buff I could see is maybe a quicker build rate for the turret level. You can't buff Bastion because everybody runs a Protect the bastion strait. Junkrat once again is difficult maybe an Increase in fire rate would help with zone control.
07/15/2017 08:00 AMPosted by Ixron
07/15/2017 07:57 AMPosted by Hexen
Casual games make billions by doing just that, and OW is a casual game.
I agree, but they can make even more money through E-Sports at that point. As well as adding a ton more cosmetics while they're at it. They're wasting a lot of potential.


I really don't think so. Every game released lately is trying to be the next big esport, but big esports pop up by accident, not by design. OW is a top tier casual game and a bottom-tier esport.
07/15/2017 08:04 AMPosted by Hexen
OW is a top tier casual game and a bottom-tier esport.

And the stream view counts pretty much prove it. Esports for this game is a complete joke. Blizzard are trying so hard but it's never going to work with a game which is entirely built around keeping things as basic and casual as possible.
07/15/2017 07:55 AMPosted by CptBlood
It might sound elitist, but it should be seen as lower tier players have more to learn, not that the game has to be changed for them especially in one with a growing pro scene.


The defense heroes need a lot of help, because they aren't even good at low ranks. But catering mostly to pro players is just a terrible idea from every standpoint.

If all the pros vanished tomorrow, OW would be fine, and most OW players would be unaffected and not notice a thing. If everyone below diamond vanished tomorrow, OW would lose most of it's income and playerbase. 65-75% of the playerbase is platinum or below in any given season, and over 50% are gold or below. You can't discount the experience of well over half your playerbase and expect your product to do well as a company or community. You think the outcry over RH and D.va was bad? Imagine if literally half the playerbase was angry.

In addition to that, having the game be balanced mostly off higher tier play is a very good way to never get any new players. In fact, it's a problem that has plagued a bunch of games over the years, with the predictable result that they fizzled out even though they were good games. If you want new players, their first introduction to the game can't be one where most of the characters are horribly unbalanced at their level. I like Overwatch, I don't want it to die a slow death.
07/15/2017 08:22 AMPosted by Xuvial
And the stream view counts pretty much prove it. Esports for this game is a complete joke. Blizzard are trying so hard but it's never going to work with a game which is entirely built around keeping things as basic and casual as possible.

Well, I think a big part of that is that Overwatch can be difficult to watch even when you know all the characters and what's going on. I watched a stream yesterday, and there were times when I had to wait for the announcer to tell me what just happened because you can't see everything from any one viewpoint, even in 3rd person.

Compare that to Hearthstone, where you can know next to nothing and know exactly what's going on. It's a very easy game to watch, to the point where the announcers are mostly there to impart personality instead of actually tell you what's going on. I wouldn't say Hearthstone is a better game than OW at all, but it is a better E-sport, although a pretty average one.
07/15/2017 07:23 AMPosted by Ixron
No game should cater to low ranks for balancing. Ever. Bastion, Torbjorn and Junkrat should not exist in their current states.


except every game with different heroes/champions/x does this.
Every game has heroes that are strong against new players. Just look at Master Yi, the bane of new players but near to non existent in higher elo.

Torb, Junkrat and bastion are these heroes.

making Torb actually good, so that he's balanced at the top, would make him near unstoppable in the lower ranks.

Since he's so easy to execute somewhat optimally.

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