Fixing Team composition in Competitive

Competitive Discussion
07/24/2017 04:12 AMPosted by Stealth
07/24/2017 04:03 AMPosted by StRode
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You don't even know the roles of standard 2/2/2. How can we ever take you seriously?

On top of that, you can't force people to play a certain way. That's some bullcrap already. It's like I can't have 5 scoped weapons on my team in CSGO.


1- 2 Tanks, 2 DPS, 2 Supports. How can I take you seriously if you can't read my posts?

2- No one is forcing you to do !@#$, if you don't want to be versatile and lock picks.. stick to quick play. If you want to be a good overwatch player and actually climb, then you have to be versatile (this is the current case now, nothing new) Only difference with my system is it will stop One trick ponies from climbing (I.e I only play hanzo/genii/mercy) and only allow players that are actually willing to communicate, form plans, switch if need be to climb. You guys can't complain about trollers/force dps picks and mercy mains climbing easy while also enjoying 100% freedom to troll pick without the team stepping in.
This is a team based game and forcing players to work as a team to make decisions will eventually force toxic players to drop to the bottom or play like humans.


Be precice in the standard 2/2/2. 2/2/2 dive has that too but isn't standard 2/2/2.

Wow you know nothing about comps
Agreed 100% in regards to stacking and forming premades, there should be no disadvantages to doing so and it should be encouraged. It's true that a clan/lfg system would benefit matchmaking as well of course, I support both of these ideas. I discussed this same possibility in my thread, formation/role based qeues and even included some additional ideas to encourage players to branch out and improve in other areas. One of those ideas being separate role based ladders and SR, being combined into an overall ladder for added benefits.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20758096091

The idea behind the formation restriction was a bit more lenient. Basically players would be matched under the assumption of an evenly distributed formation, but allow the 1-1-4 formation as well with certain heroes being available in several roles. This game is balanced around having a minimum of 1 Tank and 1 Support in a competitive environment for sustainability, so having at least one of each should be required in competitive.

Naturally any competitive format, especially in moba based games requires some amount of enforced organization/structure beyond a rating to maintain and control the integrity of the format when you're thinking long term.

A competitive environment will deteriorate, or be incredibly inconsistent in a game like OW without some level of organization in the way that players are matched. It'll have to go beyond something as basic as SR or hidden MMR eventually, especially with the way that the system works currently. Even if matchmaking is pulling information from the career profile and matching players based on that to a certain extent it could be much more beneficial. Again that would probably involve finding players that have hours on specific heroes/roles that are essential for a particular match. There is no perfect solution for a random system like this beyond giving them the option and proper tools to network and group up within the game itself, but right now the system discourages premade groups for matchmaking so that would have to be changed.

Sorry for the TLDR I'm just really interested in what other players have to contribute to this topic so I wanted to present some of these ideas.
What?
Why?!
NO!!!
To make it easier: queue for a specific role that you cannot change during the game.

I feel the overarching problem in this situation is that Overwatch is a game of counters, yet many individuals will not change their hero to assist the team. Please note: I am not implying that you need to change, I understand you have spent your hardearned money on the game. On the other hand, there are 5 other teammates that have spent their hardearned money on the game, and would like to play a more competitive makeup.

While I agree that 2/2/2 is the most balanced and realistic in the current state of heroes, I propose a different option. When you queue as a specific role, the other team plays an identical number of roles.

For example, you queue as offense. You get into a game with 4 offence heroes, 1 tank, 1 healer. Other team has an identical makeup and you play.
Game-breakingly awful idea.

Forcing a meta won't make anything work better, and will only succeed in killing the game stone dead.

Also: the three most powerful metas have not been 2-2-2. Might be time to stop worshipping at that altar, friend.
Having formation restrictions wouldn't mean that you're interested in forcing a set meta, or even set hero selections. There are additional options within every role for a reason, and certain selections would be available in several roles as well to allow players to make exceptions and change the formation a bit. Just because players are being matched under the assumption of a standard format doesn't mean that it has to play out that way.

At the very least, 1 Tank and Support would be a reasonable requirement in the current state of the game. I would love to live in a world where blizzard is capable of balancing this game in a way that would allow for 0 tanks, or 0 support compositions in competitive but it hasn't happened and I don't think it's the intended direction.
07/24/2017 04:39 AMPosted by StRode
07/24/2017 04:12 AMPosted by Stealth
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1- 2 Tanks, 2 DPS, 2 Supports. How can I take you seriously if you can't read my posts?

2- No one is forcing you to do !@#$, if you don't want to be versatile and lock picks.. stick to quick play. If you want to be a good overwatch player and actually climb, then you have to be versatile (this is the current case now, nothing new) Only difference with my system is it will stop One trick ponies from climbing (I.e I only play hanzo/genii/mercy) and only allow players that are actually willing to communicate, form plans, switch if need be to climb. You guys can't complain about trollers/force dps picks and mercy mains climbing easy while also enjoying 100% freedom to troll pick without the team stepping in.
This is a team based game and forcing players to work as a team to make decisions will eventually force toxic players to drop to the bottom or play like humans.


Be precice in the standard 2/2/2. 2/2/2 dive has that too but isn't standard 2/2/2.

Wow you know nothing about comps


I don't have to be precise, you have a pool of characters to pick from in your role and the ability to swap out of your role with your team mates. Knowing comps isn't rocket science and we aren't too far off rank wise so I must know something right? Stop trying too hard.
I'm sick of one trick ponies climbing to high Elos, get destroyed by certain comps that are designed to counter you, refuse to switch out or learn anything about team comps and just tilt pick bringing the whole team down.
Blizzard made it where you can't win unless you work as a team, so why not climb only if you are able to be a team player? Instead of crying why GOOD players seem overpowered to you when they are your counters.
Guys, it's not a hard concept I don't know why you low Elo, high Elo one trick idiots are so against forcing a team of 6 to work as a team. The STANDARD is 2-2-2, you have the option as a team to change that formation, I stated that. Stop crying about having to heal once in a while hanzo mains, you are a part of the problem if you actually pay attention the complaints here.
Only way to fix it is to force players to work as a team to climb, only way. Don't like it and don't wanna work as a team? Don't comp, you are clearly toxic so good riddance.
07/24/2017 05:59 AMPosted by Stealth
07/24/2017 04:39 AMPosted by StRode
...

Be precice in the standard 2/2/2. 2/2/2 dive has that too but isn't standard 2/2/2.

Wow you know nothing about comps


I don't have to be precise, you have a pool of characters to pick from in your role and the ability to swap out of your role with your team mates. Knowing comps isn't rocket science and we aren't too far off rank wise so I must know something right? Stop trying too hard.
I'm sick of one trick ponies climbing to high Elos, get destroyed by certain comps that are designed to counter you, refuse to switch out or learn anything about team comps and just tilt pick bringing the whole team down.
Blizzard made it where you can't win unless you work as a team, so why not climb only if you are able to be a team player? Instead of crying why GOOD players seem overpowered to you when they are your counters.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Like I'm a OTP. I'm a flex player too and always did just fine. I'm level 400 and I still do better than most level 500 OTP's.

Oh yeah, standard 2/2/2 has a full tank, semi tank, full healer, semi healer, hitscan and flanker. Not all 2/2/2 comps are the same, also in roles in case you didn't noticed.
07/24/2017 06:04 AMPosted by StRode
07/24/2017 05:59 AMPosted by Stealth
...

I don't have to be precise, you have a pool of characters to pick from in your role and the ability to swap out of your role with your team mates. Knowing comps isn't rocket science and we aren't too far off rank wise so I must know something right? Stop trying too hard.
I'm sick of one trick ponies climbing to high Elos, get destroyed by certain comps that are designed to counter you, refuse to switch out or learn anything about team comps and just tilt pick bringing the whole team down.
Blizzard made it where you can't win unless you work as a team, so why not climb only if you are able to be a team player? Instead of crying why GOOD players seem overpowered to you when they are your counters.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Like I'm a OTP. I'm a flex player too and always did just fine. I'm level 400 and I still do better than most level 500 OTP's.

Oh yeah, standard 2/2/2 has a full tank, semi tank, full healer, semi healer, hitscan and flanker. Not all 2/2/2 comps are the same, also in roles in case you didn't noticed.


No one said you were, I'm just stating a common problem that is shared across the whole community.
I know not all comps are the same, to start off you can form the team as 2DPS-2Tank-2Support. Then if you guys are actually communicating as a team, you can suggest and approve off-meta comps.. you can swap with your other team mate your role.. you can do whatever the !@#$ you want, it just requires a TEAM decision to do it.
Trollers and OTP will have no choice but to play as a team or get stuck in their Elo.
Defining DPS as a single role is too broad, I get that. But you are faced with the same decision now as you are then, only difference is if lucio wanted to throw and switch to hanzo he can't. If a soldier main was healing as mercy and wanted to switch with a genji main that is DPSing as genji to deal with pharah, they can swap DPS to SUPPORT roles with each other no approvals needed. Most important thing is team comp won't be compromised unless the team thinks it's the right decision.
07/24/2017 06:03 AMPosted by Stealth
Guys, it's not a hard concept I don't know why you low Elo, high Elo one trick idiots are so against forcing a team of 6 to work as a team. The STANDARD is 2-2-2, you have the option as a team to change that formation, I stated that. Stop crying about having to heal once in a while hanzo mains, you are a part of the problem if you actually pay attention the complaints here.
Only way to fix it is to force players to work as a team to climb, only way. Don't like it and don't wanna work as a team? Don't comp, you are clearly toxic so good riddance.


I mean to be fair this change wouldn't even affect their hero selections or preferences, they would just qeue up as DPS and have the same options so I don't even understand how this would be an issue for one tricks. All you can do is encourage players to enjoy other aspects of the game by giving an incentive, and players that stick to one role ( Which would obviously apply to one tricks as well ) would end the seasons with less overall SR. This would impact their placement for the following seasons and force them to invest more time/effort into returning to their original SR from the previous season. Separate ladders / SR for roles could be a great way to influence players, and reduce the overall amount of smurf accounts at higher ratings.
They should really make people queue up for 2 roles at least. Like Team builder in League. Just generally a good system.
I see where the OP is going now.

"Hey i have a really bad idea, what do you think about it?"

"its bad due to XYZ"

"OMG U LOW RATED ELO SCRUBS UNDERSTAND NOTHING WTF"

Forcing a meta isnt gonna be healthy for the game, and it kinda ruins the entire purpose of countering the enemy team setup. Sometimes you need 3 tanks, sometimes you need 3 DPS - if you force people to "vote" and !@#$ every time someone swaps, boy the game is gonna be %^-*.
07/24/2017 06:18 AMPosted by JRoy
07/24/2017 06:03 AMPosted by Stealth
Guys, it's not a hard concept I don't know why you low Elo, high Elo one trick idiots are so against forcing a team of 6 to work as a team. The STANDARD is 2-2-2, you have the option as a team to change that formation, I stated that. Stop crying about having to heal once in a while hanzo mains, you are a part of the problem if you actually pay attention the complaints here.
Only way to fix it is to force players to work as a team to climb, only way. Don't like it and don't wanna work as a team? Don't comp, you are clearly toxic so good riddance.


I mean to be fair this change wouldn't even affect their hero selections or preferences, they would just qeue up as DPS and have the same options so I don't even understand how this would be an issue for one tricks. All you can do is encourage players to enjoy other aspects of the game by giving an incentive, and players that stick to one role ( Which would obviously apply to one tricks as well ) would end the seasons with less overall SR. This would impact their placement for the following seasons and force them to invest more time/effort into returning to their original SR from the previous season. Separate ladders / SR for roles could be a great way to influence players, and reduce the overall amount of smurf accounts at higher ratings.


Literally what I said FFS.
The system I suggested has a ratio limit of role queuing, meaning you can only queue as DPS a certain number of times before it being locked out and you have to queue as either tank or support I.E for every 4 DPS games, you tank 1 game and you heal 1 game with an increase SR bonus for playing your off-roles as an incentive to actually try hard.
OTP wont be able to climb if all they can do is heal for example.
It would be easier and maybe better if they just didn't put any more than 3 people who main a certain hero type on the same team.

Every game lately is 4 people insta locking DPS and then arguing over who is best at it and who should have to support.

I was in a 3900 vs 4200 game the other day and thought "well, this is going to suck" but the 4200 average team had 3 one trick Mercy's, 2 one trick Lucio's, and a one trick roadhog. We held them AT THEIR SPAWN with one of us dance emoting in the back most of the game. This shouldn't happen.
07/24/2017 06:21 AMPosted by Tankz
I see where the OP is going now.

"Hey i have a really bad idea, what do you think about it?"

"its bad due to XYZ"

"OMG U LOW RATED ELO SCRUBS UNDERSTAND NOTHING WTF"

Forcing a meta isnt gonna be healthy for the game, and it kinda ruins the entire purpose of countering the enemy team setup. Sometimes you need 3 tanks, sometimes you need 3 DPS - if you force people to "vote" and !@#$ every time someone swaps, boy the game is gonna be %^-*.


Forcing people to communicate and make decisions as a team to counter a team comp.. omg, god forbid the game FORCES you to do what you should be doing anyways. Why would your team mates disapprove your pick if it's a valid one? It's a yes or no vote, it's not that hard to click on 1 button to prevent toxic switches and force team play.
You don't seem to understand how toxic season 5 has gotten. The number 1 reason is because of troll picks, number 2 is leavers and trollers.
07/24/2017 06:25 AMPosted by Stealth
07/24/2017 06:18 AMPosted by JRoy
...

I mean to be fair this change wouldn't even affect their hero selections or preferences, they would just qeue up as DPS and have the same options so I don't even understand how this would be an issue for one tricks. All you can do is encourage players to enjoy other aspects of the game by giving an incentive, and players that stick to one role ( Which would obviously apply to one tricks as well ) would end the seasons with less overall SR. This would impact their placement for the following seasons and force them to invest more time/effort into returning to their original SR from the previous season. Separate ladders / SR for roles could be a great way to influence players, and reduce the overall amount of smurf accounts at higher ratings.


Literally what I said FFS.
The system I suggested has a ratio limit of role queuing, meaning you can only queue as DPS a certain number of times before it being locked out and you have to queue as either tank or support I.E for every 4 DPS games, you tank 1 game and you heal 1 game with an increase SR bonus for playing your off-roles as an incentive to actually try hard.
OTP wont be able to climb if all they can do is heal for example.


SR bonus for succeeding in an off role seems like an interesting idea, but locking players out of a role is too forced. Worst case scenario should be a set back in SR, so just not benefiting from that same bonus as flex players. That way successful flex players would be in a higher SR range, which would be the same purpose of having the overall SR ladder in the system that I described.
07/24/2017 06:31 AMPosted by Stealth
07/24/2017 06:21 AMPosted by Tankz
I see where the OP is going now.

"Hey i have a really bad idea, what do you think about it?"

"its bad due to XYZ"

"OMG U LOW RATED ELO SCRUBS UNDERSTAND NOTHING WTF"

Forcing a meta isnt gonna be healthy for the game, and it kinda ruins the entire purpose of countering the enemy team setup. Sometimes you need 3 tanks, sometimes you need 3 DPS - if you force people to "vote" and !@#$ every time someone swaps, boy the game is gonna be %^-*.


Forcing people to communicate and make decisions as a team to counter a team comp.. omg, god forbid the game FORCES you to do what you should be doing anyways. Why would your team mates disapprove your pick if it's a valid one? It's a yes or no vote, it's not that hard to click on 1 button to prevent toxic switches and force team play.
You don't seem to understand how toxic season 5 has gotten. The number 1 reason is because of troll picks, number 2 is leavers and trollers.


Not gonna lie, but forcing people to "vote" mid fight or awarding off heroes with more points isnt exactly gonna help at all.

The only thing this change will do is stagnate the game even more and make queue times horrible for DPS players.
07/24/2017 06:16 AMPosted by Stealth
only difference is if lucio wanted to throw and switch to hanzo he can't.


You're right - under your system he would have to get a "vote approval" to make this happen. However, he could easily switch to Symm (still a support role) and throw. In fact, any hero in any role can throw... Hell, he could stay Lucio, deprive you of healing, speed only right in to the enemy and feed away. Problem not solved by your solution...

07/24/2017 06:16 AMPosted by Stealth
I know not all comps are the same, to start off you can form the team as 2DPS-2Tank-2Support. Then if you guys are actually communicating as a team, you can suggest and approve off-meta comps..


Glad you can have such a thorough discussion and make any necessary vote swap requirements in the 1 minute of hero selection pre-game. Especially at our Elo... lol

07/24/2017 06:16 AMPosted by Stealth
Trollers and OTP will have no choice but to play as a team or get stuck in their Elo.


OTPs are not effected. So you put some arbitrary "have to go outside of 'main' role every 5th and 6th game"... a OTP then enters said matches and says "guys, I'm a OTP <this hero>... if you want your best chance of winning, you let me switch. Otherwise, you'll lose too" - congrats, you just doomed 5 other players to a loss by forcing a OTP to not play their proficiency. Trollers won't be effected at all, nor do they care about their Elo... they are trollers...

07/23/2017 05:16 PMPosted by Stealth
4- LFG would literally take so much longer than what I suggested and groups will disband after losses so you just wasting more time. My option gives solo queueing a chance again


LFG would be far superior to this "vote locked" system you have proposed. I'd never go solo queue again, and constantly just seek consistent groups. Do we disband after a few losses? Sure. Do a few people probably want to stick together and just pickup someone else to fill the people that left? Probably! And if not, no biggie - open up the LFG console and find a new group... I'd rather spend a few extra minutes pre-game finding a group, than wasting precious seconds in game deciding whether or not I want to approve that Lucio to Hanzo swap...
07/24/2017 06:37 AMPosted by Tankz
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Forcing people to communicate and make decisions as a team to counter a team comp.. omg, god forbid the game FORCES you to do what you should be doing anyways. Why would your team mates disapprove your pick if it's a valid one? It's a yes or no vote, it's not that hard to click on 1 button to prevent toxic switches and force team play.
You don't seem to understand how toxic season 5 has gotten. The number 1 reason is because of troll picks, number 2 is leavers and trollers.


Not gonna lie, but forcing people to "vote" mid fight or awarding off heroes with more points isnt exactly gonna help at all.

The only thing this change will do is stagnate the game even more and make queue times horrible for DPS players.


Queue time is the only potential flaw that I see with a role based system, remember this isn't specific to a hero it's based on roles.

So additional SR would be rewarded to players that successfully win a match as a role if they have more time played in another for example. Has nothing to do with a set hero.

The voting system idea seems contrary to the additional bonus SR concept because you could potentially switch roles towards the end of a match to benefit from the bonus without actually having an impact on that role. Players would abuse a system like that.

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