"Why does Doomfist oneshot if Hog can't?"

General Discussion
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I see this question thrown around a lot. People seem to think that if Roadhog can't oneshot people, then how come someone like Doomfist can?

Let me just start off by saying, oneshots were never exclusive to Hog. Imagine how utterly useless Hanzo and Widow would be if they couldn't instantly kill someone with a headshot.

Now consider Doomfist for a moment. Let's compare and contrast him to Roadhog, specifically what goes into them scoring an instant kill against an enemy.

First off let's cover what's similar about the abilities.
-The hook and the punch are both the most integral parts of each character, ie the characters sort of revolve around these core abilities.
-Both are easier to land than a headshot from sniping

So those are where theyre the same. Now let's go over my main points for why Doomfist deserves his oneshot, and why hog really doesn't. And this is also taking into consideration the new hog buff that puts him where he should be (hookshot nerf was for sure too much, but the new buff SHOULD remedy this)

Hog:
  • Can preform hook from a safe position
  • Has no wind up on the hook
  • Has 600 health (900 effectively with his E)
  • Still has an effective gun to kill with if he misses
  • Hook is hard to predict, very little telegraph
  • Doom:
  • Must sacrifice his positioning in order to land a punch (ie dive the enemy)
  • Has a wind up in order to get the full damage
  • Has 250 HP (can go to 400 if he's doing really well)
  • If he misses his punch he becomes a very easy kill
  • Punch is more telegraphed, loud audio, wind up, slower travel than the hook, slowed movement while charging
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    So I don't really want to say that Hog players are wrong to be upset about losing the playstyle they grew accustomed to with Hog. Or that it isn't still ironic that Doomfist just happened to release after Hog nerf. But I just want to make a point about why Doomfist is even more reliant on the oneshot than Hog ever was, and was ever meant to be.

    My personal opinion on what Roadhog was designed to be, what the developers had in mind when they came up with the Hog:

      When I look at Roadhog I see an aggro tank. Someone who is a big threat. With very dangerous CC, and a huge health pool. What I never saw in him was that he was designed or conceptualized to effectively be this hook sniper who just got instant picks like widow or hanzo with a quarter of the effort and none of the risk involved with say Reaper or Doomfist getting a oneshot. Hog doesn't put himself into a bad position, and he doesn't really have to aim that precisely.

      And let me just add this, Roadhog is not "designed to punish bad positioning". Every character in the game punishes bad enemy positioning. What Roadhog is fundamentally designed to do, is to turn your good positioning into bad positioning by hooking you.
    You have 20 minutes on Roadhog and are in Gold league. You have no idea what you're talking about.
    08/10/2017 03:01 PMPosted by DarkBubsy420
    Imagine how utterly useless Hanzo and Widow would be if they couldn't instantly kill someone with a headshot.

    Skill requirement of killing as WM with a headshot consistently is insane. Skill requirement to OHK with DF? Just wait for CD and point to a general enemy direction.

    08/10/2017 03:01 PMPosted by DarkBubsy420
    Hog:
    Can preform hook from a safe position
    Has no wind up on the hook
    Has a bigger hitbox than punch(even easier to land)
    Has 600 health (900 effectively with his E)
    Still has an effective gun to kill with if he misses
    Hook is hard to predict, very little telegraph

    Yet hook breaks when LoS is broken
    Hitbox size is plain false, hook isn't easier to land
    Yeah he has 600HP and one of the largest hitboxes in the game.
    Hook is easy to predict - you just need to know where Hog is.
    Hog is slow and does not have any protection from anywhere.

    08/10/2017 03:01 PMPosted by DarkBubsy420
    Doom:
    Must sacrifice his positioning in order to land a punch (ie dive the enemy)
    Has a wind up in order to get the full damage
    Has a smaller hitbox than hook (easier to miss with)
    Has 250 HP (can go to 400 if he's doing really well)
    If he misses his punch he becomes a very easy kill
    Punch is more telegraphed, loud audio, wind up, slower travel than the hook, slowed movement while charging

    It all worth it because he's almost guaranteed to kill enemy support
    Again, a lie. Hook doesn't have bigger hitbox
    250HP, shield and smaller hitbox
    Yeah, and he has one of the best mobility kit in the game.

    And yes, Hog's hook is twice as longer CD than RP. And yes, hook was easier to predict because things like "map awareness" and "enemy position knowledge" worked against it. But you can never guess where DF is with his insane mobility.
    Well,

    Roadhog is supposed to be a tank and Doomfist is a dps.

    That's really what its about, a tank that does too much.

    You're right, one-shotting isn't exclusive to roadhog, but it was because of how easy it was to pull off that bothered people.

    And the fact that he's a tank.

    I am okay with Doomfist, if his close ranged attacks were weak, then he'd be absolute garbage in a game full of heroes with guns.
    08/10/2017 03:09 PMPosted by Sheldon
    Well,

    Roadhog is supposed to be a tank and Doomfist is a dps.

    That's really what its about, a tank that does too much.

    You're right, one-shotting isn't exclusive to roadhog, but it was because of how easy it was to pull off that bothered people.

    And the fact that he's a tank.

    I am okay with Doomfist, if his close ranged attacks were weak, then he'd be absolute garbage in a game full of heroes with guns.


    Roadhog's not a tank. Get that idea put of your head please. He is a dps with a large health pool which is balanced because of his massive hitbox and lack of defense.
    Also, to kill as consistently as Doomfist, you need to be really good at aiming and timing the hook. It's not "easy to pull off", bud, believe me.
    08/10/2017 03:01 PMPosted by DarkBubsy420
    Has a smaller hitbox than hook (easier to miss with)

    Are you sure about that? Doomfists punchy glove hitbox is pretty darn big, it's pretty broken at the moment..

    And the problem I have with him is that he can one shot your support, and you basically can't do anything about it. Unless you have godlike aim, or the Doomfist is charging up out in the open (which a good Doomfist wouldn't do), you're not going to be able to kill him before he kills your support. He may die in the process, but that doesn't really matter, because he just made an AMAZING trade that will probably win his team that fight. Then on the next fight, he can do the exact same thing. If there was a way to defend against it that wasn't "Just shoot him you pleb", then I wouldn't have much issue with it. Zarya technically works, but her bubbles are on a very long cooldown, and you'd have to be very quick, and always keep LoS to your supports to make that a valid strategy.
    08/10/2017 03:07 PMPosted by BeefySleet
    You have 20 minutes on Roadhog and are in Gold league. You have no idea what you're talking about.


    Honestly, fight the argument not the person making it.

    There's silver players that coach other players into diamond on LoL. Ranking doesn't reflect your game knowledge. It reflects your ability to put it off of paper and into practice.

    It also wouldn't change the fact that this may be a huge problem at lower rankings and not at higher rankings.You can argue that it doesn't apply globally, but not that it doesn't exist merely because of their rank.
    It's easy to make something look broken if you only state the upsides. I'm not accusing you of being disingenuous, but there's a few things to note / clear up:

    08/10/2017 03:01 PMPosted by DarkBubsy420
    Can preform hook from a safe position
    Has no wind up on the hook
    Has a bigger hitbox than punch(even easier to land)
    Has 600 health (900 effectively with his E)
    Still has an effective gun to kill with if he misses
    Hook is hard to predict, very little telegraph


    Regarding the hitbox, this is untrue, and has been for a long time. The hook has a similar hitbox to Hanzo's arrows, and both of those are much smaller than Rocket Punch.

    The hook also has one of the largest reaction windows of any attack in the game, exceeded perhaps only by a full-length Reinhardt pin. He also can't move while doing so, meaning that the reaction window doubles as a vulnerability window.

    Positionally, he's more vulnerable than Hanzo or Widowmaker because he requires full LoS to his target with no obstructions. He's about as vulnerable as Doomfist is, where the latter's colossal attack hitbox requires him to clear obstacles significantly to avoid hitting them.

    You're also ignoring the fact that Doomfist has extremely powerful escape moves in his arsenal.
    Please. They have literally the same gimmick and operate in the same range lmao.

    Roadhog's combo was sacrificed for Doomfist precisely. Notice that his hook tweaks prior to Doomfist's release were slight and always came with a damage buff to compensate. It's not rocket science.

    Roadhog was designed as a tanky dps. Period. He was supposed to flank and get picks. He was supposed to punish bad positioning as well. You had to be aware of him just like you have to be aware of Widow, Pharah and other heroes that have an ability to restrict your space.

    Not sure if Doomfist was designed to camp every corner on KOTH and Escort maps and surprise one-shot you, but that's how people play him lmao. Doomfist is okay though. He needs the same changes that the hook initially got so that he doesn't clip you through walls anymore.

    Roadhog, however, needs a complete rework as a tank or some power restored in the damage department. I don't know, let his hook DoT people so that they can only blame themselves for dying by staying too far from their sustain sources, be it their team or a good old health pack.
    Doomfist was more balanced on release than hog has even been.
    08/10/2017 03:12 PMPosted by Baconpants
    Roadhog's not a tank. Get that idea put of your head please. He is a dps with a large health pool which is balanced because of his massive hitbox and lack of defense.
    Also, to kill as consistently as Doomfist, you need to be really good at aiming and timing the hook. It's not "easy to pull off", bud, believe me.


    Roadhog is a tank. Your opinion on it sadly doesn't mean much when the devs themselves have already told all of us multiple times that he is meant to be a tank. He's in the category, and he's been nerfed, buffed, changed in order to better fit that role. Even if you think he shouldn't be, the developers obviously think otherwise and believe he should be a tank and are making changes to make it so.
    I think people are forgetting what tanks are meant to do.
    hog is a tank? lol. Do tell me how he "tank" for his team beside being a new and improved ult charge battery pack for the enemy team. He lack the shield, armor or mobility to be anything close to viable to protect his team or himself. SOL if you and your team failed to kill that hook victim of yours as you and probably whoever next to you will get melted by that hook victim real quick.

    The changes in take a breather is a joke. it's utterly useless in combat. ok you might now survive that extra sec or 2 but a tracer or genji will still melt you easily and they will thank you dearly for the additional ult charges. Most people use that out of combat and out of the line of sight of the enemy team.
    08/10/2017 03:22 PMPosted by VILLAIN
    Roadhog was designed as a tanky dps. Period. He was supposed to flank and get picks.
    Stopped reading, you have no idea what you're talking about. He's not Pudge. This isn't DOTA.
    08/10/2017 03:29 PMPosted by Aldrich
    I think people are forgetting what tanks are meant to do.

    I think people are forgetting that tanks were never meant to do anything other than be an ad hoc category for existing characters.

    08/10/2017 03:30 PMPosted by Roaming
    Stopped reading, you have no idea what you're talking about. He's not Pudge. This isn't DOTA.

    How do you explain the tooltip that literally tells you to flank with Roadhog to hook people?
    08/10/2017 03:07 PMPosted by BeefySleet
    You have 20 minutes on Roadhog and are in Gold league. You have no idea what you're talking about.


    Ok? I don't play competitive hardly anymore because most my group I play with is rarely on. I actually have 9 hours on Hog. You don't just get to decide that my only experience that counts with hog is this competitive season lol
    08/10/2017 03:07 PMPosted by BeefySleet
    You have 20 minutes on Roadhog and are in Gold league. You have no idea what you're talking about.
    Way to go to dicredit someone's thoughts and opinions by looking at their stats despite presenting good arguments.
    08/10/2017 03:30 PMPosted by SomeBody
    hog is a tank? lol. Do tell me how he "tank" for his team beside being a new and improved ult charge battery pack for the enemy team. He lack the shield or armor to be anything close to viable to protect his team or himself. SOL if you and your team failed to kill that hook victim of yours as you and probably whoever next to you will get melted by that hook victim real quick.


    Ok, so I guess this concept is sort of lost on most people.

    AGGRO TANK

    Big Healthpool
    Huge sustain
    Dangerous CC
    Lethal damage

    Yes hog has no shields! That doesn't mean he still can't protect his team by drawing aggro. His E was designed to be a way for him to soak up enemy fire after he shook the hornets nest and initiated, his hook is meant to snatch an enemy player away from their team and either start a fight or kill them (with his teams help)

    Neither of those things worked as intended. Hook became a pick ability almost like sniping. And the E, like you said just charged enemy ults.

    Now however they got rid of the instant kill on the hook, and made his breather worth using.
    08/10/2017 03:30 PMPosted by Roaming
    08/10/2017 03:22 PMPosted by VILLAIN
    Roadhog was designed as a tanky dps. Period. He was supposed to flank and get picks.
    Stopped reading, you have no idea what you're talking about. He's not Pudge. This isn't DOTA.

    why cant you accept the fact that there are different kinds of tanks other than "SHIELD CARRIER LOW DPS ARMORED CHARACTER"
    roadhog had zero armor, low range with his gun, only thing that offset and helped was his hook. and that hook is a projectile that can be dodged, the fact that people are saying "its easy," is quite hilarious. You require almost the same, if not the equivalent of using hanzo.
    A projectile that requires prediction, adjustment for distance, and timing.
    The fact that ALL of you are ignoring this little tid bit is odd. the further you are from him, the harder it is to hook a person because once it flies it wont change where it goes until it gets reel'd back in.
    so at longer distances, easy to miss it/dodge it.
    08/10/2017 03:12 PMPosted by Baconpants
    08/10/2017 03:09 PMPosted by Sheldon
    Well,

    Roadhog is supposed to be a tank and Doomfist is a dps.

    That's really what its about, a tank that does too much.

    You're right, one-shotting isn't exclusive to roadhog, but it was because of how easy it was to pull off that bothered people.

    And the fact that he's a tank.

    I am okay with Doomfist, if his close ranged attacks were weak, then he'd be absolute garbage in a game full of heroes with guns.


    Roadhog's not a tank. Get that idea put of your head please. He is a dps with a large health pool which is balanced because of his massive hitbox and lack of defense.
    Also, to kill as consistently as Doomfist, you need to be really good at aiming and timing the hook. It's not "easy to pull off", bud, believe me.


    PLEASE

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