Is it bad to have an ability that can turn back a team wipe?

General Discussion
Ignoring for a second whether the new Mercy is going to be overpowered or a must-pick or easier/harder to play, I find one thing Jeff says in the developer update video to be a bit strange. Specifically, he says it's "disheartening" to have a team wipe (he uses a Graviton Surge + Rocket Barrage combo as an example) "erased" by a Mercy ult.

A good Grav combo can't reliably be countered by a Lucio ult or a Zen ult. Too much damage (e.g. Rocket Barrage, Dragon Strike) negates Sound Barrier as a counter, and too much burst damage (e.g. Pulse Bomb, RIP-Tire) or a well-placed Biotic Grenade negates Transcendence as a counter. Resurrect was arguably the most consistent counter to a wombo combo, as it only required Mercy to not be in the Grav herself. No matter how bad a team gets wrecked by one or two ultimates, a Mercy could potentially undo it as long as she didn't die herself. The question I have is: Is that actually bad design for the game?

Remember back when ultimate charge rates were nerfed across the board because the devs thought they were too dominant? Because the devs thought that the flow of the game should have more to do with "normal" fighting and not be centered so much about making big plays with ultimates? Having Resurrect as a way to counteract team wipes seems consistent with that philosophy. Ressurect is its most devastating when a team needs multiple ultimates to initiate a push. Maybe there should be something in the game that counters such heavy reliance on ultimates?
When you waste only one ult to counter 1- 6 ults it's bad.
08/26/2017 11:29 AMPosted by ǶAENOX
When you waste only one ult to counter 1- 6 ults it's bad.


lol thats because the enemy team didn't plan their ults properly and save them for mercy's rez. if you blow SIX ults to get a team wipe, you deserve to lose.
As we have seen from the devs themselves, counterplay in Overwatch is considered to be a very, very bad thing. Remember this when Transcendence and Sound Barrier go the way of Resurrect.
I guess Sombra would be the closest thing as she can lock down ults and prevent their usage, especially if initiating her own ult in team fights early.
08/26/2017 11:29 AMPosted by ǶAENOX
When you waste only one ult to counter 1- 6 ults it's bad.


If you need 6 ults for a teamfight to win, and dont kill a Mercy in that brutal act, then you deserve to get wiped...
For the narcissistic human aim-bots that are the "pros", yes, yes it is. They can't own up to the reality that their power trip with Gengoo was shot down by one button press because they messed up timing. Their ego can't handle the idea that they made a mistake. They think their skill is the apex of everything, and everyone else should bend over and take it.
Well the thing is if you lost the team fight you were out played. If the enemy Zarya got all of your team in a grav and her team capitalised on it then they deserve the point. Why should you get a get out of jail free card with Mercy because she was hiding?

They combo's ults and committed to the fight, Mercy just presses Q.

Everyone else has to be in the fight where as Mercy needs to hide
No, its not a bad thing. If there were one or maybe two ults that could cause a team wipe, then yeah. But so many heroes have ways of just getting multikills with one ult, why not have some that can prevent that.

If this is their logic they have to be looking at Lucio and Zenyatta ults next. Mercy's may be more obvious, but they do the same thing.
08/26/2017 11:40 AMPosted by Billy
Well the thing is if you lost the team fight you were out played. If the enemy Zarya got all of your team in a grav and her team capitalised on it then they deserve the point. Why should you get a get out of jail free card with Mercy because she was hiding?

They combo's ults and committed to the fight, Mercy just presses Q.

And Zenyatta can trans through most ults in the game


is mercy rez suddenly not part of the teamfight anymore? the teamfight doesn't end the first time you wipe if a mercy rezzes. you need to plan for it when there's a mercy on the enemy team.
I think you're framing this in a very specific scenario. That being graviton surge + some other DPS ultimate. And even then, I've used transcendence and sound barrier (to a lesser extent) to survive plenty of graviton surges. And even then, not every game has a Zarya. Nano visor, nano blade, etc. can all be countered by transcendence and sound barrier. If nothing else, Overwatch is a game of counters, which includes ultimates countering ultimates. I think most of the time, while transcendence and barrier can be shut down, they'll still make opposing ultimates useless. Because of this, I viewed rez as very similar to barrier and transcendence, just instead of preventing team wipes, you reverse them.

All that being said, I'm glad Mercy got a rework. I hated having to leave my team to hide, it was boring and just didn't feel right. I hated that I was 100% reliant on my team. These new changes do a lot to fix that for me. However, I don't know if her new ultimate is going to be able to counter something like nano blade, which makes it feel like less of a support ultimate to me.
Well the thing is if you lost the team fight you were out played. If the enemy Zarya got all of your team in a grav and her team capitalised on it then they deserve the point. Why should you get a get out of jail free card with Mercy because she was hiding?

They combo's ults and committed to the fight, Mercy just presses Q.

And Zenyatta can trans through most ults in the game


is mercy rez suddenly not part of the teamfight anymore? the teamfight doesn't end the first time you wipe if a mercy rezzes. you need to plan for it when there's a mercy on the enemy team.


I edited my post slightly. The thing is Mercys Rez is better when she hides. Zenyatta and Lucio both have to be near their teammates for their ults to be worthwhile. The game encourages the Mercy to NOT be there. How is that good game design?

If you have to plan for Rez, that's killing 5 players, then killing another 6 players once the Mercy rejoins the fight. That's not balanced.
I liked it because it was one of the only three super defensive ults in the game. and now that its gone, were down to arguably only sound barrier and trans as defense ults in overwatch. i get that it was an annoying ability from time to time, but what ability ISNT? and more to the point: why were we letting it annoy us as a community rather than PLANNING FOR IT?

seriously, we all know killing mercy first was the best counter to rez, but it was FAR from the only one. if someone Dead Eyes people as they're being rezzed, it is DEVASTATING. at MOST, in a situation like that, you should use three ults: grav, one ult to kill the grav (dragon strike, riptire, pulse bomb, even just simple focus fire to save your ults) and then one more to get people as they're being rezzed (D.va nuke, if gotten off as you see mercy coming in, not AFTER They're already being rezzed, was a HUGE play. dead eye, riptire maybe, earthshatter)

this is not a hard concept, its just that the community as a whole seems to have decided "well if MY Play can be countered, because MY play is the one that matters to ME, then none should be!"
08/26/2017 11:26 AMPosted by DigitalBoy
Is that actually bad design for the game?

It is not but are we just going to ignore the fact how easy rez was to use?
08/26/2017 11:40 AMPosted by Billy
Well the thing is if you lost the team fight you were out played. If the enemy Zarya got all of your team in a grav and her team capitalised on it then they deserve the point. Why should you get a get out of jail free card with Mercy because she was hiding?

They combo's ults and committed to the fight, Mercy just presses Q.

Everyone else has to be in the fight where as Mercy needs to hide

thats not always being outplayed though is it? me and my 6 stack used rez all the time to waste enemy gravs on purpose, march in all neat and orderly on "accident", get graved, watch the enemy use 3-4 ults like the average stupid team will, and then rez it away. thats not being outplayed, thats just flat out being more organized and thoughtful than your opponent
Not at all.

08/26/2017 11:26 AMPosted by DigitalBoy
I find one thing Jeff says in the developer update video to be a bit strange. Specifically, he says it's "disheartening" to have a team wipe (he uses a Graviton Surge + Rocket Barrage combo as an example) "erased" by a Mercy ult.


This is the same sort of soft, stupid bs he uses to justify the change from bo5 to bo3 for control. What is this guy doing as the head of what is supposed to be a competitive game? I haven't questioned his position before but hearing this stuff and seeing it applied makes me wonder if he is fit to give overall direction. Overwatch is not supposed to be a casual game despite what some might claim. I hope it doesn't take him long to lighten up and get a pair.
08/26/2017 11:55 AMPosted by HANA
08/26/2017 11:26 AMPosted by DigitalBoy
Is that actually bad design for the game?

It is not but are we just going to ignore the fact how easy rez was to use?

compared to what? the current mercy ult in the PTR requires practically no set up, no planning, and no real need to strategize with it, as you can do practically ANYTHING with it. but how is THAT not easier to use than rez?
08/26/2017 11:55 AMPosted by Reason97
08/26/2017 11:40 AMPosted by Billy
Well the thing is if you lost the team fight you were out played. If the enemy Zarya got all of your team in a grav and her team capitalised on it then they deserve the point. Why should you get a get out of jail free card with Mercy because she was hiding?

They combo's ults and committed to the fight, Mercy just presses Q.

Everyone else has to be in the fight where as Mercy needs to hide

thats not always being outplayed though is it? me and my 6 stack used rez all the time to waste enemy gravs on purpose, march in all neat and orderly on "accident", get graved, watch the enemy use 3-4 ults like the average stupid team will, and then rez it away. thats not being outplayed, thats just flat out being more organized and thoughtful than your opponent


Well even if they knew what you were doing it won't have made any difference. Because either way, your mercy is gonna fly out of nowhere and Rez them, baited graviton or not.

People say "kill Mercy first" yeah well that's not that simple, because like you just proved, a good Mercy will hide.

Again, Resurrect was an ult that encourages your Mercy NOT to be in the teamfight
The new Mercy ult would in all likelihood require more of the Mercy, but mass ress brought an important counter-ult element to the game that I think is needed from a gameplay perspective, and for this guy to talk about how it's "disheartening", omg. Is he a game developer or a middle school counselor for crying out loud?
08/26/2017 11:55 AMPosted by HANA
08/26/2017 11:26 AMPosted by DigitalBoy
Is that actually bad design for the game?

It is not but are we just going to ignore the fact how easy rez was to use?


are we going to ignore the fact that rez is not the only "easy" ultimate to use, if you mean mechanical difficulty? soldier ult, reaper ult, pharah ult, any ult comboing with a graviton surge.... why are these hard but rez is easy?

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