Wouldn't a system based only on wins/losses be better?

Competitive Discussion
The current system takes into account your personal performance in a match and compares it with other people at your rank...isn't this a bad idea for a team game where you are supposed to switch heroes to counter?I think a system like that might work for games that are 1v1, but not Overwatch.

Stomping, getting rolled, one tricking flexing they all affect SR gains differently for every hero.

When your team stomps the enemy either all the members gain a lot or some gain less bc their role wasn't as needed as usuall (for example your tanks and DPS are really good or maybe the enemy is really bad; the supports didn't need to heal that much so they gain less SR)

If you're getting rolled usually you won't get good stats so the game considers your performance bad so you lose more SR (but maybe the enemy was just really good, or your team bad, or something)

We already know that not switching ultimately makes you lose less SR on a loss ang gain more on a win because of the whole comparing stats with other people. This pretty much means you get punished for flexing. If you change heroes , and even worse if you change roles the system compares the stats for every hero to the other people at your rank and considering the amount of mains and onetricks, plus the fact that sometimes people just don't need to switch which buffs the stats the system is working with (but this might be too little of a precentage to matter) changing heroes will give you less SR on a win and take more on a loss.

And this is without taking into account trolls, throwers, leavers, smurfs and derankers.

So wouldn't basing the system only on wins and losses be better?

Yeah, you could argue that some people might be worse than the rest of the team and will just get carried for a few matches. Then again, if they are bad they'll fall and do you really think they'll get carried every match? No system is perfect but at least it's a start.

TL;DR the current system doesn't work with how many variables are in a match and a purely win/loss system would be faire

(Sorry for any mistakes, english is not my native language)
Ok, ok I see the downvotes. Would anyone care to make an argument? Did they fix the SR gains and I just happened to miss it? Is there a problem with my reasoning that I should be aware of? Is it about the main/flex/onetrick point? Is it the fact that I mentioned a flaw within the win/loss system?

As I said, it's not a perfect system but it's an idea. I'm open to opinions.
How would you balance someone just playing more games and having a higher total score than someone who is actually better at the game?

Since the current system isn't really transparent everyone seems to go off "how it feels". The current system works correctly even though there are flaws.
yes it would. because performance doesnt matter when you lose. and when you win, it still doesnt matter. you should climb on win percentage rather than on what statistics say you should be capable off.

if i get stomped, i get punished for it, no matter if i really deserve it. if i stomp, i get rewarded, no matter if i really played that well.

the system has too much downsides and on top incentivises soloplay rather than efficient team play.
It would be the most fair and encourage team work instead of punish it
I don't know why you're getting downvoted, but I think that a pure win/loss system where you win and lose the same amount of points would be the best way to do it. Right now there's a strange performance thing going on where if you stick to your hero pick and get good stats you'll get more points compared to if you'd be a flex player. And this is just insane considering this is supposed to be a team game.

It's just way too difficult to make this performance based sr gain/loss work really well because the game can't predict all scenarios, like you switching to a hero that wins 1 push. Or shielding your teammates just in time to protect them from a Dva bomb that would cost you the game. etc. So having a simpler system where wins always give the same sr would probably feel better for flex players at least.

If we are supposed to win as a team then make it more appealing to switch heroes to make better team comps mid-game and encourage the team work.
I agree. The only thing that should modify the SR gain/loss is the skill difference.

e.g., average SR of 2500 vs 3500.
10/27/2017 05:12 AMPosted by gcd
I agree. The only thing that should modify the SR gain/loss is the skill difference.


every other teambased game has this system where you can be the best player in the world, as long as you dont win, you get punished based on how well your team is perceived by the system. it works well in lol, in hots, in csgo, everywhere. only in overwatch which arguably is the most team reliant team based game in the world, they try to reward you based on "stats". stats that the system somehow assumes are important than the outcome based on a play you made.

even worse: it makes gold players queueing with diamond ones benefitial for both players. because the gold player wins points because his sr is lower than the average they queue with, and the diamond gets boosted because he stomps lower players. duh, surprise.

f*ck off blizzard. nobody needs this. you have had your time trying this stuff out only for everybody starting to realize by now that it doesnt really work as intended.
10/27/2017 05:17 AMPosted by DayliteDemon
10/27/2017 05:12 AMPosted by gcd
I agree. The only thing that should modify the SR gain/loss is the skill difference.


every other teambased game has this system where you can be the best player in the world, as long as you dont win, you get punished based on how well your team is perceived by the system. it works well in lol, in hots, in csgo, everywhere. only in overwatch which arguably is the most team reliant team based game in the world, they try to reward you based on "stats". stats that the system somehow assumes are important than the outcome based on a play you made.

even worse: it makes gold players queueing with diamond ones benefitial for both players. because the gold player wins points because his sr is lower than the average they queue with, and the diamond gets boosted because he stomps lower players. duh, surprise.

f*ck off blizzard. nobody needs this. you have had your time trying this stuff out only for everybody starting to realize by now that it doesnt really work as intended.


Uhm, if im not mistaken, they're also using a performance system in cs:go.

I dont mind the system personally because it means I can easily get points even if you end up on "unlucky teams" just by outperforming the rest.
10/27/2017 05:24 AMPosted by Tankz
Uhm, if im not mistaken, they're also using a performance system in cs:go.


okay then. but there it is understandable because every kill is much more important and every player has essentially the same role in soloqueue: survive and frag.

overwatch however doesnt at all work like this. your play isnt worth jack sh*t if you cant win the fight as a team and cap the objecive.

in csgo: a player could literally solo a round by 1 v 6ing and it even happens. and thats one more point for your team. in overwatch even if you 1 v 6 (what actually is almost impossible), that doesnt mean you really accomplish anything after that.

then in ow there are many heroes that work dramatically different from one another. for some, damage is easy to achive. for some dmg is not important. for some, their core emchanics cant even be properly displayed within any metrics.

short: overwatch is no solo performance heavy game.

over many games you can climb with skill. but a skilled player should just win as many games as possible. the single games performance isnt worth anything.
Yes there are issues with Sr wins and losses, but the real gripe is with the mmr system, which is a hidden matchmaking system. People of the same rank have a wide range of mmr scores. The mmr system prioritizes a 50/50 match up, meaning both teams have a 50% chance of winning. This means that two gold players (gold Sr), one with the mmr of a plat and one with the mmr of a silver are more likely to be put on the same team because it will equalize that 50/50 ratio. If you’re gaining skill, it almost feels like the game is designed to keep you in your rank, because you’ll have to carry harder in each match. If you’re boosted, you have a good chance of staying in your rank because there’s a good chance you’ll get carried. This system shouldn’t be implemented. If you’re mmr is higher, you should at least have the chance to be put with average players of your rank so you can climb. This 50% chance of winning issue is what makes people so frustrated with comp and it’s got to go. Fortunately, Jeff put out a post last night saying they’re working on competitve changes, so hopefully we’ll here something at blizzcon. Also, one of the devs put out a thread on mmr a while ago explaining the system as I just have, but I can’t find the link (mentioned so you know I’m not making this up).
I don’t know if anyone here played competitive Rocket League but the system was solely based on wins and losses and not team contribution.

It was awful. You scored 6 goals but your team mates scored 7 own goals causing you to lose? You just got deranked. You hard carried with over 3000 points and your useless teammates got less than 100 each? All of you are now promoted, including your useless teammates who will inevitably drag someone else down with them.
10/27/2017 06:55 AMPosted by tinyfenix
I don’t know if anyone here played competitive Rocket League but the system was solely based on wins and losses and not team contribution.

It was awful. You scored 6 goals but your team mates scored 7 own goals causing you to lose? You just got deranked. You hard carried with over 3000 points and your useless teammates got less than 100 each? All of you are now promoted, including your useless teammates who will inevitably drag someone else down with them.


except that's how it works in overwatch, it just doesn't happen as quickly due to minor mmr adjustments.

You can still go on a random losing streak even if your performance is insane compared to your teammates and opponents, and still lose sr, and still cause the mmr system to start messing with your matchmaking either to give you harder opponents or worse teammates. This entire system is what causes players to throw, so they throw off the mmr system and go on win streaks to try to luck out passed their previous season high.

There are people stuck in ranks due to sheer luck or poor character specialization who should be much higher, statistically speaking.

I mean really, you can only carry so hard.
https://i.imgur.com/ggn6xvo.png
https://i.imgur.com/pfWiFw4.png

and even if you're consistently good and flexible, you can still go on a loss streak or have a negative win rate, even if you're mechanically very good.
https://i.imgur.com/h6VNPyz.png

In fact, I would argue that sometimes being consistently very good statistically speaking can be a detriment to climbing - and I'm surprised blizzard doesn't acknowledge how bad this feels.

let me give you a simple example.

If I spend a week of games playing a mediocre fill role as a tank or something, when I switch back to my main dps after that week of 50/50 games I actually climb pretty consistently.
I presume this is because the mmr system now thinks I belong where I am, and my opponents never know what hit them (that tracer game above is a good example). However, after a short while that stops. Why is that? Well, since SR has nothing to do with your actual skill, the game is matching you with OTHER players who are similarly skilled in the back end but in a reasonably close rank to you and your teammates currently.

This of course leads to the person who was placed against you to "balance" the game potentially pooping all over your team if you're not personally countering them.

What would be far better would be for the matchmaking system to allow "ringer" players to rank out of inappropriate ranks even faster than now, by doing the opposite of what people are suggesting: EVEN FURTHER reduce the sr loss for games where you performed at a level more consistently with someone who belongs at a much higher rank then the players around him (and still lost), and reward even more SR bonus currently for a skillful win when your team wasn't even close to your k/d, accuracy, healing, blocking, etc and objective goals.

So we either do it one of two ways: matchmake your teammates at your mmr and sr, but stop placing people with mmr/sr mismatches against singular players that are similarly skilled because the odds of you countering them without a role based queue is unlikely at best except for DPS, which theoretically counters everything in a way - which is why dps roles tend to climb faster with pure mechnical skill on their side. They're less likely to encounter an opponent they were "set up against" that they can't deal with.

I've won more games by playing "spot the ringer" then anything else. When the system is starting to think I don't belong in my rank again, it's easy to see the other poor chump who I'm stuck against. I often prefer those players to up my chances of having them on my team - that "gaming the system" seems to work a little too.

The other way to do it might be to friend up with those people who are pooping all over your team and duoing in an attempt to throw the matchmaker off, since one of you just lost.

Either way the system doesn't work in it's current state for anything except dps and sometimes healers.
10/27/2017 08:56 AMPosted by Lhun
10/27/2017 06:55 AMPosted by tinyfenix
I don’t know if anyone here played competitive Rocket League but the system was solely based on wins and losses and not team contribution.

It was awful. You scored 6 goals but your team mates scored 7 own goals causing you to lose? You just got deranked. You hard carried with over 3000 points and your useless teammates got less than 100 each? All of you are now promoted, including your useless teammates who will inevitably drag someone else down with them.


except that's how it works in overwatch, it just doesn't happen as quickly due to minor mmr adjustments.

You can still go on a random losing streak even if your performance is insane compared to your teammates and opponents, and still lose sr, and still cause the mmr system to start messing with your matchmaking either to give you harder opponents or worse teammates. This entire system is what causes players to throw, so they throw off the mmr system and go on win streaks to try to luck out passed their previous season high.

There are people stuck in ranks due to sheer luck or poor character specialization who should be much higher, statistically speaking.

I mean really, you can only carry so hard.
https://i.imgur.com/ggn6xvo.png
https://i.imgur.com/pfWiFw4.png

and even if you're consistently good and flexible, you can still go on a loss streak or have a negative win rate, even if you're mechanically very good.
https://i.imgur.com/h6VNPyz.png

In fact, I would argue that sometimes being consistently very good statistically speaking can be a detriment to climbing - and I'm surprised blizzard doesn't acknowledge how bad this feels.

let me give you a simple example.

If I spend a week of games playing a mediocre fill role as a tank or something, when I switch back to my main dps after that week of 50/50 games I actually climb pretty consistently.
I presume this is because the mmr system now thinks I belong where I am, and my opponents never know what hit them (that tracer game above is a good example). However, after a short while that stops. Why is that? Well, since SR has nothing to do with your actual skill, the game is matching you with OTHER players who are similarly skilled in the back end but in a reasonably close rank to you and your teammates currently.

This of course leads to the person who was placed against you to "balance" the game potentially pooping all over your team if you're not personally countering them.

What would be far better would be for the matchmaking system to allow "ringer" players to rank out of inappropriate ranks even faster than now, by doing the opposite of what people are suggesting: EVEN FURTHER reduce the sr loss for games where you performed at a level more consistently with someone who belongs at a much higher rank then the players around him (and still lost), and reward even more SR bonus currently for a skillful win when your team wasn't even close to your k/d, accuracy, healing, blocking, etc and objective goals.

So we either do it one of two ways: matchmake your teammates at your mmr and sr, but stop placing people with mmr/sr mismatches against singular players that are similarly skilled because the odds of you countering them without a role based queue is unlikely at best except for DPS, which theoretically counters everything in a way - which is why dps roles tend to climb faster with pure mechnical skill on their side. They're less likely to encounter an opponent they were "set up against" that they can't deal with.

I've won more games by playing "spot the ringer" then anything else. When the system is starting to think I don't belong in my rank again, it's easy to see the other poor chump who I'm stuck against. I often prefer those players to up my chances of having them on my team - that "gaming the system" seems to work a little too.

The other way to do it might be to friend up with those people who are pooping all over your team and duoing in an attempt to throw the matchmaker off, since one of you just lost.

Either way the system doesn't work in it's current state for anything except dps and sometimes healers.


This is literally the opposite of OP and is more in line with how the game already works? I don’t know what you’re really arguing here. Having a flat SR gain/loss on win/loss is completely counterintuitive to everything you just said.

If that were the case, you have no incentive whatsoever to give it your all or try to carry.

“You can only carry so hard” true but carrying already reduces SR loss and adds to SR gains which seems like exactly what you’re arguing for anyway????

Bud, I’m not really sure what your point against mine even is besides your sentiment of the way the matchmaker matches people which is also a totally separate point and completely arbitrary to the discussion.
I can see that at this post is for those people who think they should be in a higher rank but in reality you are we’re you are for a reason. It’s never gona be based on wins, that just make more boosted players. Not good. Down this post all you want, that just proves me right about you guys.
I would take a worse , pure win/loss system just to maybe get 1% of stupid majority start thinking about how to win rather than how to lose with gold medals.

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