Stop Balancing to Casuals

Competitive Discussion
Low skill floor heros should equal low reward. If you want to use mercy or junk to climb to diamond that's fine.. When you have mercy or junk one tricks in gm who on any other they're gold its just a meme.

They need to stop buffing heros you can play with your feet into gods. I mean it's fine to have heros with low skill floors for effectiveness but they should only be effective at low elo
And how is it exactly balanced for casuals?
10/13/2017 09:05 AMPosted by Mike
Low skill floor heros should equal low reward. If you want to use mercy or junk to climb to diamond that's fine.. When you have mercy or junk one tricks in gm who on any other they're gold its just a meme.

They need to stop buffing heros you can play with your feet into gods. I mean it's fine to have heros with low skill floors for effectiveness but they should only be effective at low elo


I mean, Mercy really isn’t that easy to play anymore. At least to play her effectively, anyone can hold left click. Teams target her and savagely punish her now and positioning becomes hugely important in how you manage the distances between teammates.

Lucio is far easier to play, TBH. Yes there’s nuance in the flip flopping of speed to heal and the right times to amp it up, but he’s a super easy hero to play effectively.
10/13/2017 09:09 AMPosted by SaoGage
10/13/2017 09:05 AMPosted by Mike
Low skill floor heros should equal low reward. If you want to use mercy or junk to climb to diamond that's fine.. When you have mercy or junk one tricks in gm who on any other they're gold its just a meme.

They need to stop buffing heros you can play with your feet into gods. I mean it's fine to have heros with low skill floors for effectiveness but they should only be effective at low elo


I mean, Mercy really isn’t that easy to play anymore. At least to play her effectively, anyone can hold left click. Teams target her and savagely punish her now and positioning becomes hugely important in how you manage the distances between teammates.

Lucio is far easier to play, TBH. Yes there’s nuance in the flip flopping of speed to heal and the right times to amp it up, but he’s a super easy hero to play effectively.


Lol. Mercy is even easier to play now then she was before. You simply need to exists and you have a huge impact on the game.
This game was advertised, presented at BlizzCon, promoted as, and maintained as explicitly FOR "casuals."

It is designed to be playable by the widest possible types of players.

It has aim assist, or "favors the shooter" whatever you want to call it.

It has gigantic hit boxes.

It has bright, contrasting colors so you can see who your enemy is clearly and easily.

It is the quintessential casual shooter.

I swear gaming culture rots you peoples brains.
10/12/2017 11:06 PMPosted by NanoKek420
I love this game immensely despite it's issues which is why I am posting this. I've been playing blizzard games since 5th grade (Wow BC).

When you balance to casuals the game will die much earlier than it deserves for the masterpiece it is. Casuals will adapt and stay in their current ranks but they will have something to aspire to and it allows the skill ceiling to rise.

I saw what you guys did to WoW and watched it die as it became a casual !@#$ show where you can afk and see all the content by hitting lvl85.

I don't want to see the same happen to our player base just like happened to:
SWBF1 EA
Battlefield 1
Etc

Please keep this game alive


they've done changes based on the pro scene
10/13/2017 07:35 AMPosted by Pyrofool
Dude, Blizzard has not balanced to casuals. They only ever balance towards the pro scene. If the pros say something needs changed that's what they consider changing. You can blame pro players for Roadhog, mercy, Lucio, and junkrat changes.


Hog has a sub 1% pick rate in pro when he was nerfed.

To the guy above you... Pros wanted Ana's nade nerfed, not her damage. Still one of the worst nerfs they've done.

While people say they want to balance towards Pros they don't really understand what they are saying. They really mean they want balancing done towards the traits that make someone a pro. By that I mean they want the purer mechanical skill characters to always be viable and better than lower mechanical skill characters. IE.. Ana always better than Mercy. Mccree always better than Junkrat. etc. Characters like Mercy/Junk/Sym/Torb/Bastion... should have places where they are viable but if they're ever viable everywhere the game is in trouble.
10/13/2017 07:53 AMPosted by NanoKek420
10/13/2017 07:35 AMPosted by Pyrofool
Dude, Blizzard has not balanced to casuals. They only ever balance towards the pro scene. If the pros say something needs changed that's what they consider changing. You can blame pro players for Roadhog, mercy, Lucio, and junkrat changes.


Pro players hardly ever used Roadhog. Also, they didn't even complain about hog. He just punished out of position players down the ladder and the outcry on the forums is why he was nerfed.
Lucio was buffed because he was so boring that you basically just exist and push E every time it's off CD. What exhilarating game play! It was seriously not fair to people who wanted a higher skill skill ceiling on Lucio, skill floor untouched.

Mercy was also nerfed because of Everybody except for people who actually main her. If you looked at the forums b4 her change and after there was just a !@#$ show of everyone complaining about mercy, and even mains of other supports are constantly salty about not being able to play the healer they like without being %^-* talked in voice comms.

Junkrat was buffed because he hardly saw use and now he is being used a lot, he is slightly over tuned.
This is because he has an extremely low risk and high reward, low skill ceiling for the relative impact he has on the game


When you make claims like these you need to back them up with sources. So unless you can show me some blue text that says "we changed roadhog because people on our forums cried" or "we changed lucio because "he was boring" then all your claims mean exactly nothing. Litteraly none of your claims are valid or worth commenting on without showing us your proof.
10/13/2017 08:31 AMPosted by Teriball
10/13/2017 08:16 AMPosted by Anointedone
@teriball

I didn’t want to quote your extensive post for obvious reasons, but I couldn’t have said it better myself.

No problem. Glad you enjoyed.

10/13/2017 08:18 AMPosted by NanoKek420
Yeah I agree with you as well, a more skill based high impact tank would be nice, but we most likely need a new support first

You aren't wrong, but it is harder to think up a high tech support that would be fun to play and still strong.

Honestly, I wouldn't be against a hero that was shield based. She could synergize with Sym and other shield based heroes.

Give her the ability to provide two drones that provide 100 HP of shields to two of her allies. It takes say 3 seconds before the shields are fully up so that you can't just swap drones around to give people a quick health boost.

The drones also have 100 HP so you can either shoot the drone or the ally doesn't matter. If you shoot the drone, it takes 5 seconds before she can use another.

These shields are different from standard shields though in that they are hardened and prevent Sombra from EMPing them away. For example, place one on Zen so that when he gets EMPed he has 150 HP instead of only 50. (His normal shields still disappear.) They also quarter any damage taken instead of halve compared to regular armor and any damage over 10 is deduced by 3 instead of 5 like regular armor.

Her main weapon heals shields on allies at a faster rate than Mercy but doesn't heal HP. Alternate fire allows her to repair allies shields as they are up but at a slower rate than Mercy.

Ult provides every ally with 100 HPs worth of hardened shields for 10 seconds. All other existing shields also transform into hardened shields for the duration of the ult. Including held/dropped shields.


That would be placed on tracer and genji.... you know what kind of !@#$ that would cause right?
10/13/2017 10:54 AMPosted by Komondor
10/13/2017 07:35 AMPosted by Pyrofool
Dude, Blizzard has not balanced to casuals. They only ever balance towards the pro scene. If the pros say something needs changed that's what they consider changing. You can blame pro players for Roadhog, mercy, Lucio, and junkrat changes.


Hog has a sub 1% pick rate in pro when he was nerfed.

To the guy above you... Pros wanted Ana's nade nerfed, not her damage. Still one of the worst nerfs they've done.

While people say they want to balance towards Pros they don't really understand what they are saying. They really mean they want balancing done towards the traits that make someone a pro. By that I mean they want the purer mechanical skill characters to always be viable and better than lower mechanical skill characters. IE.. Ana always better than Mercy. Mccree always better than Junkrat. etc. Characters like Mercy/Junk/Sym/Torb/Bastion... should have places where they are viable but if they're ever viable everywhere the game is in trouble.


This is what some wise person has point out in one of the best posts i've seen about ow. I didn't write it but wish i did.

Here are the skills required for overwatch:

Positioning
Situational awareness
Communication
Complex problem solving.
Spatial Awareness
Time management.
Resource management.
Rapid association and identification.
Psychology.
Behavioral prediction (Somewhat covered by the above)
Team composition
Coordinated strategy.
Reaction times.
Accuracy with a mouse.

Here's the skills people complain about on the forums when a character doesn't rely so heavily on them:

Accuracy with a mouse.

Here are the skills people claim makes a character "High Skill Ceiling":

Accuracy with a mouse.
Reaction times.
10/12/2017 11:06 PMPosted by NanoKek420
I saw what you guys did to WoW and watched it die as it became a casual !@#$ show where you can afk and see all the content by hitting lvl85.

Ah the good ol' days of WoW. Where heroics were heroic and raids were heroics on steroids that had taken steroids. You saw someone in rad armor and you knew they were the real deal. You aspired to be them. You saw someone on a Nether Drake and you knew they grinded their butts for hours upon hours to get the gold just to buy the flying and then grinded longer to get the drake.
10/13/2017 01:10 PMPosted by RobotWizard

Here are the skills required for overwatch:
Positioning
Situational awareness
Communication
Complex problem solving.
Spatial Awareness
Time management.
Resource management.
Rapid association and identification.
Psychology.
Behavioral prediction (Somewhat covered by the above)
Team composition
Coordinated strategy.
Reaction times.
Accuracy with a mouse

Damn, all I have is positioning...
10/13/2017 01:10 PMPosted by RobotWizard
10/13/2017 10:54 AMPosted by Komondor
...

Hog has a sub 1% pick rate in pro when he was nerfed.

To the guy above you... Pros wanted Ana's nade nerfed, not her damage. Still one of the worst nerfs they've done.

While people say they want to balance towards Pros they don't really understand what they are saying. They really mean they want balancing done towards the traits that make someone a pro. By that I mean they want the purer mechanical skill characters to always be viable and better than lower mechanical skill characters. IE.. Ana always better than Mercy. Mccree always better than Junkrat. etc. Characters like Mercy/Junk/Sym/Torb/Bastion... should have places where they are viable but if they're ever viable everywhere the game is in trouble.


This is what some wise person has point out in one of the best posts i've seen about ow. I didn't write it but wish i did.

Here are the skills required for overwatch:

Positioning
Situational awareness
Communication
Complex problem solving.
Spatial Awareness
Time management.
Resource management.
Rapid association and identification.
Psychology.
Behavioral prediction (Somewhat covered by the above)
Team composition
Coordinated strategy.
Reaction times.
Accuracy with a mouse.

Here's the skills people complain about on the forums when a character doesn't rely so heavily on them:

Accuracy with a mouse.

Here are the skills people claim makes a character "High Skill Ceiling":

Accuracy with a mouse.
Reaction times.


10/13/2017 01:10 PMPosted by RobotWizard
10/13/2017 10:54 AMPosted by Komondor
...

Hog has a sub 1% pick rate in pro when he was nerfed.

To the guy above you... Pros wanted Ana's nade nerfed, not her damage. Still one of the worst nerfs they've done.

While people say they want to balance towards Pros they don't really understand what they are saying. They really mean they want balancing done towards the traits that make someone a pro. By that I mean they want the purer mechanical skill characters to always be viable and better than lower mechanical skill characters. IE.. Ana always better than Mercy. Mccree always better than Junkrat. etc. Characters like Mercy/Junk/Sym/Torb/Bastion... should have places where they are viable but if they're ever viable everywhere the game is in trouble.


This is what some wise person has point out in one of the best posts i've seen about ow. I didn't write it but wish i did.

Here are the skills required for overwatch:

Positioning
Situational awareness
Communication
Complex problem solving.
Spatial Awareness
Time management.
Resource management.
Rapid association and identification.
Psychology.
Behavioral prediction (Somewhat covered by the above)
Team composition
Coordinated strategy.
Reaction times.
Accuracy with a mouse.

Here's the skills people complain about on the forums when a character doesn't rely so heavily on them:

Accuracy with a mouse.

Here are the skills people claim makes a character "High Skill Ceiling":

Accuracy with a mouse.
Reaction times.


Your post is well written and intellectual, but it just felt off...anyways I did some digging and saw a gold elo 1900...
For someone who makes an intellectual post identifying all the things needed for being good at thegame don't you think you'd be higher elo.?

Well I looked at your accuracies generally sub 40% on pretty much every hero. So I can only conclude your a player who attempts to perform everything you listed
Except:

Accuaracy with a mouse.

Don't you think there's some correlation here and now maybe you'd understand why so many players value:

Accuaracy with a mouse.

P.s. I dont have the greatest accuaracy myself either but I've climbed based on two skills alone.

Reaction times.

Critical thinking in fast paced situations.
The Pro Scene the OWL are on a different server. So stop using that "they are balancing around them". They are not. Our game is balanced around quick play numbers and baby rage forum dwellers from reddit and here. Why do you think almost every rework and balance been around low skill characters and gutting high end characters.

Nerf: Ana, McCree, Widow, Doomfsit, Hog, and Zarya.

Buff/rework brain dead characters. Symmetra, Junkrat, Mercy, Lucio, Winston, DVA, and Reaper.
I'm what you would call really old and mostly deaf in one ear. Makes knowing which direction junkrat tires are coming from hard.

My son is in plat purely off reaction speed and accuracy.

But that is where he stays, since he refuses to learn the rest.

You need reaction speed for all characters. It is a constant. You can to mid gold without accuracy and reaction speed.

But without the rest of the skills you also wont get above plat which is why people think it is elo hell.

However, given you have reaction speed, and everything except accuracy you can get to top 500.

There are top 500 Syms, Winstons, Mercies. Buy I find it crazy the very skills people say make up the no skill characters are what make plat / diamond such elo hells for those stuck in them :)

So to answer your comment. I DO practice accuracy, i do ana training and spend time in the training area, and know its important. I'll wait to see your reaction times / accuracy in your 40's and 50's.

It is reaction times which kills me the most.

It is other skills which kill other players.
10/13/2017 03:09 PMPosted by RobotWizard
I'm what you would call really old and mostly deaf in one ear. Makes knowing which direction junkrat tires are coming from hard.

My son is in plat purely off reaction speed and accuracy.

But that is where he stays, since he refuses to learn the rest.

You need reaction speed for all characters. It is a constant. You can to mid gold without accuracy and reaction speed.

But without the rest of the skills you also wont get above plat which is why people think it is elo hell.

However, given you have reaction speed, and everything except accuracy you can get to top 500.

There are top 500 Syms, Winstons, Mercies. Buy I find it crazy the very skills people say make up the no skill characters are what make plat / diamond such elo hells for those stuck in them :)

So to answer your comment. I DO practice accuracy, i do ana training and spend time in the training area, and know its important. I'll wait to see your reaction times / accuracy in your 40's and 50's.

It is reaction times which kills me the most.

It is other skills which kill other players.


It's cool that you practice your aim, but Ana bots tend to make your aim worse because they move in a predictable pattern. Try Aim Hero on Steam, it has an option to input your overwatch sensitivity and its helped lots.

By the way every fps game requires more skills than just strafing and aiming, so saying because junkrat requires other skills it means nothing.
Every hero requires game sense and ability timing etc, except some of them actually require you to aim. In my opinion aim assist heroes are fine if they are not able to have the same impact as skill heroes or if they are qp only
10/13/2017 03:39 PMPosted by NanoKek420
10/13/2017 03:09 PMPosted by RobotWizard
I'm what you would call really old and mostly deaf in one ear. Makes knowing which direction junkrat tires are coming from hard.

My son is in plat purely off reaction speed and accuracy.

But that is where he stays, since he refuses to learn the rest.

You need reaction speed for all characters. It is a constant. You can to mid gold without accuracy and reaction speed.

But without the rest of the skills you also wont get above plat which is why people think it is elo hell.

However, given you have reaction speed, and everything except accuracy you can get to top 500.

There are top 500 Syms, Winstons, Mercies. Buy I find it crazy the very skills people say make up the no skill characters are what make plat / diamond such elo hells for those stuck in them :)

So to answer your comment. I DO practice accuracy, i do ana training and spend time in the training area, and know its important. I'll wait to see your reaction times / accuracy in your 40's and 50's.

It is reaction times which kills me the most.

It is other skills which kill other players.


It's cool that you practice your aim, but Ana bots tend to make your aim worse because they move in a predictable pattern. Try Aim Hero on Steam, it has an option to input your overwatch sensitivity and its helped lots.

By the way every fps game requires more skills than just strafing and aiming, so saying because junkrat requires other skills it means nothing.
Every hero requires game sense and ability timing etc, except some of them actually require you to aim. In my opinion aim assist heroes are fine if they are not able to have the same impact as skill heroes or if they are qp only


I will do that! That is amazingly helpful!!

Thanks for the tip!
10/13/2017 09:00 AMPosted by Exile20
10/13/2017 07:53 AMPosted by NanoKek420
...

Pro players hardly ever used Roadhog. Also, they didn't even complain about hog. He just punished out of position players down the ladder and the outcry on the forums is why he was nerfed.
Lucio was buffed because he was so boring that you basically just exist and push E every time it's off CD. What exhilarating game play! It was seriously not fair to people who wanted a higher skill skill ceiling on Lucio, skill floor untouched.

Mercy was also nerfed because of Everybody except for people who actually main her. If you looked at the forums b4 her change and after there was just a !@#$ show of everyone complaining about mercy, and even mains of other supports are constantly salty about not being able to play the healer they like without being %^-* talked in voice comms.

Junkrat was buffed because he hardly saw use and now he is being used a lot, he is slightly over tuned.
This is because he has an extremely low risk and high reward, low skill ceiling for the relative impact he has on the game


That RH was never what Blizz intended rh to be. That version of RH as you said hardly got play in GM and up and lower level plays complained. They changed him and now you see RH in pro play, lower level players are not complaining, His win rate is slightly higher since the change, his play times was 7% now it is 5% with an upward trend. He is an actual tank now instead of a dps. So what is the problem? Everyone is happy.

You complain about mercy catering to the casual and not pro play yet wants Blizz to cater to mains in this situation? GM and up including pro players complained about Mercy and so she was changed but apparently this situation should be different according to you.

JR change was because you hardly saw him in GM and up games and he was extremely weak in unless you were below gm. If blizz was catering to the casuals then Blizz would have nerfed him some more. Was he overtuned? Maybe but that was not because of casuals complaining. Isn't the point to make all heroes viable across all skills? His pick rate went up 2% to 5% but his winrate stayed at around 50% to 52%.


Roadhog still isn’t a tank. He is tanky, but not a tank. A tank TANKS damage, in other words blocks it without charging enemy ult. Rein shield, Zarya bubble, Winston bubble, defense matrix, etc.
They aren't balancing to casuals. They are balancing around Tracer and Genji. The whole reason we got Sombra, is because only 1 person could play tracer at a time.
10/13/2017 09:05 AMPosted by Mike
Low skill floor heros should equal low reward. If you want to use mercy or junk to climb to diamond that's fine.. When you have mercy or junk one tricks in gm who on any other they're gold its just a meme.

They need to stop buffing heros you can play with your feet into gods. I mean it's fine to have heros with low skill floors for effectiveness but they should only be effective at low elo


A few things here.
1. While some characters are more effective with less skilled characters, skill cap is almost infinite for every hero.
2. I could argue that you're a hypocrite, being a Lucio main, but I know that even though Lucio is very easy to play at an acceptable level for Bronze to low Gold, as you get higher there are several things you need to pick up on. When to heal, when to speed, when to amp. Who to run in and grab with speed boost, how to wall ride effectively, knowing the combo, etc. So while you being a Lucio main, and knowing all of these things about Lucio changes your perspective on Lucio, an "easy" character to play. Maybe you need to take some time to play all of the heroes as much as him, and get to understand that every hero takes skill to actually be good at.

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