Can tracer and genji please have a hard counter?

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10/11/2017 06:44 PMPosted by Awkward
You'd make a hero that targets mobility specifically.

The idea I often suggest is to add a passive to Mei's LMB and Q that locks out mobility abilities (think Junkrat trap, but still allows WASD) for a short duration while the target is being frozen.


This would make Mei absolutely destroy:

Mercy
Genji
Tracer
Winston
D.Va
McCree
Pharah
Sombra
Doomfist
Widowmaker

Hell, Even Reinhardt would be unable to charge anywhere near a Mei. I agree she needs a buff, but that might be a bit much.

10/11/2017 06:49 PMPosted by Mochan
Make them unable to escape Symmetra's turrets with their Dash and Blink, for starters. Then buff Torb's turret or give it some special resistance to to shurikens and Tracer's pistols. That'll hard counter them.


Buffing Torb's turret would help against Tracer, but do nothing against Genji. It'd also make Torb better in general, which I'm sure a lot of people would support, but a heck of a lot of people would also absolutely hate.

Giving specialized Genji-edition armor or making Symmetra's turrets specifically block blink and swift strike would break with the consistency of the game, which is why no other hero does that.
10/11/2017 06:57 PMPosted by Raz
Theoretically speaking, how would you design a hard counter better than Sombra? If a hero can reliably, without conditions, beat Genji and Tracer in a 1v1, without requiring the aim McCree does, how could you possibly balance them against the rest of the cast?


As I said before. TARGET THEIR MOBILITY.

Exceptional mobility is what sets Tracer and Genji apart from the rest of the heroes, and taking away their mobility temporarily cripples them, whereas it's a minor inconvenience to most other heroes.

You take away Tracers mobility and she's a sitting duck. You take away Reapers mobility and he blasts you in the face because he doesn't have any mobility in the first place.

This would make Mei absolutely destroy:

Mercy
Genji
Tracer
Winston
D.Va
McCree
Pharah
Sombra
Doomfist
Widowmaker

Hell, Even Reinhardt would be unable to charge anywhere near a Mei. I agree she needs a buff, but that might be a bit much.


Mercy shouldn't be anywhere near Mei, and Mei can still be peeled by Mercy's teammates. (Force an iceblock, slow wears off, Mercy escapes)

Genji, Tracer and Sombra should be afraid of Mei with this suggestion. They're the people I'm targeting with it.

Winston and Dva can still go toe-to-toe with a Mei. It just means that it's going to be a fight to the death.

McCree can Flash>Fan and kill a Mei easy.

Pharah shouldn't be anywhere near a Mei. I'm not suggesting a buff to her icicle, only her LMB which is short range, and her ultimate (which is an ultimate and shouldn't be easily escaped in the first place).

I don't see it as a bad thing that Mei counters Doomfist.

If a Widowmaker gets snuck up on by a Mei, the Mei deserves the kill.

And as for Rein? Well, I've always thought that Rein should be immune to all CC and disruption during his charge. It's pathetically weak.

Overall the main idea for this is that we avoid a hero who is generically strong. We could make Sombra 100x better and she'd counter Genji and Tracer easily, but then she'd become just as big, if not a bigger problem than Genji and Tracer.

But by buffing Mei, we give extreme strengths to a hero that doesn't affect how they get matched up against their counters. Like I said, this change would allow Mei to hardcounter mobile heroes, which is what we need, but at the same time allow heroes who can smoke Mei to continute doing so.
Overwhelming burst damage counters them both pretty easily. Now if only there was a character that could, say, stun them, pull them in, and kill them before they could get away... Oh but that's a pipe dream.
10/11/2017 07:06 PMPosted by Awkward
10/11/2017 06:57 PMPosted by Raz
Theoretically speaking, how would you design a hard counter better than Sombra? If a hero can reliably, without conditions, beat Genji and Tracer in a 1v1, without requiring the aim McCree does, how could you possibly balance them against the rest of the cast?


As I said before. TARGET THEIR MOBILITY.

Exceptional mobility is what sets Tracer and Genji apart from the rest of the heroes, and taking away their mobility temporarily cripples them, whereas it's a minor inconvenience to most other heroes.

You take away Tracers mobility and she's a sitting duck. You take away Reapers mobility and he blasts you in the face because he doesn't have any mobility in the first place.
That's why I said "better than Sombra?" as Sombra does remove ALL of Tracer's mobility. Genji still has his passives of double jump and wall climb, which basically (when played well) can render that ability denial negligible. If all you're looking for to counter Tracer is to deny her mobility, then you can't get much better than Sombra... Can you?
10/11/2017 07:06 PMPosted by realmzjetter
Overwhelming burst damage counters them both pretty easily. Now if only there was a character that could, say, stun them, pull them in, and kill them before they could get away... Oh but that's a pipe dream.


Roadhog is one the best counter to flankers overall, but he's not a particularly good one. The hook is easy to predict, easy to dodge (for a flanker), and has a long cooldown.
10/11/2017 06:34 PMPosted by Merciless
Genji- A good Winston or Doomfist, or even Junkrat

Tracer- A good McCree or Doomfist.

1. Winston can be kited by genji so hard it's not even funny. Thanks to genjis bloated kit he's got multiple ways to kite or escape him.
2.lol doomfist did counter him, but blizz decided to rip him apart. Genji can easily evade microfists punches now.
3. Mcrees flashbang can easily be baited out by both the flankers. And once flashbang is down the flankers can kill Mcree with ease.
Bottom line, we need more heroes who are great at countering mobility. That way there's a reason for people to get off of tracer and genji and play other dps.
10/11/2017 07:06 PMPosted by realmzjetter
Overwhelming burst damage counters them both pretty easily. Now if only there was a character that could, say, stun them, pull them in, and kill them before they could get away... Oh but that's a pipe dream.

This same character is also very fat, slow, and easy to bait as a flanker. Once his hook is down flankers get EZ ult charge off of him and proceed to do their usual healer nuking.
10/11/2017 07:13 PMPosted by Boostio
10/11/2017 07:06 PMPosted by realmzjetter
Overwhelming burst damage counters them both pretty easily. Now if only there was a character that could, say, stun them, pull them in, and kill them before they could get away... Oh but that's a pipe dream.

This same character is also very fat, slow, and easy to bait as a flanker. Once his hook is down flankers get EZ ult charge off of him and proceed to do their usual healer nuking.


I've seen good hogs melee to bait deflect? And he he does deflect either Hooked, or forced to run away?
Tracer already has a hard counter it is called being hit she instantaneously dies from it every time.
10/11/2017 07:09 PMPosted by Raz
That's why I said "better than Sombra?" as Sombra does remove ALL of Tracer's mobility. Genji still has his passives of double jump and wall climb, which basically (when played well) can render that ability denial negligible. If all you're looking for to counter Tracer is to deny her mobility, then you can't get much better than Sombra... Can you?


Sombra's hack is more than mobility though. Tracer and Genji need better counters, and Hack is okay at best,

Buffing Hack further to specifically target mobility would unintentionally hurt ability based heroes like Dva, Orisa or Road.

It's a soft-counter at best, especially considered how lacklustre Sombra is at everything but abusing Health Packs.
Symm, Mei, Winston. Sombra.
Mei getting a Zarya-like buff to her ult would be a nice start.

Her ult would still be escapable, but it would do a better job at stopping hyper-mobile threats.
10/11/2017 07:18 PMPosted by Awkward
10/11/2017 07:09 PMPosted by Raz
That's why I said "better than Sombra?" as Sombra does remove ALL of Tracer's mobility. Genji still has his passives of double jump and wall climb, which basically (when played well) can render that ability denial negligible. If all you're looking for to counter Tracer is to deny her mobility, then you can't get much better than Sombra... Can you?


Sombra's hack is more than mobility though. Tracer and Genji need better counters, and Hack is okay at best,

Buffing Hack further to specifically target mobility would unintentionally hurt ability based heroes like Dva, Orisa or Road.

It's a soft-counter at best, especially considered how lacklustre Sombra is at everything but abusing Health Packs.
How do we target that mobility in a way that doesn't render heroes without mobility free kills?
10/11/2017 07:21 PMPosted by Raz
How do we target that mobility in a way that doesn't render heroes without mobility free kills?


Mei.

Heroes without mobility can't escape her in the first place, so they'll be fighting her on the exact same footing as they currently do.

It's the same logic as the Zarya buff. Graviton is exactly as threatening to someone like a Soldier or McCree post-buff as it was pre-buff, but the buff to Graviton made it significantly more threatening to mobile heroes who could escape it previously.
Sombra is great against Tracer, one hack and Tracer is gone.

Against Genji she is still good, but not as good.

The problem is Sombra can be good against those two characters, but she will take a spot on your team that could be filled by a more reliable dps like soldier

talking about soldier, he's great against tracer too, not so good against genji tho

and Lucio is great against Tracer, you'll scare the !@#$ out of tracer if you can hit her
Doomfist countered them just fine, though of course Blizzard made sure that wasn't the case anymore.
I guess Symmetra, Winston and Pharah don't count anymore.
10/11/2017 07:37 PMPosted by Echo
I guess Symmetra, Winston and Pharah don't count anymore.


A decent Tracer will truck both Winston and Symmetra and will never be hit by a direct from Pharah.

Genji's the same, but he'll just avoid Sym and Winston instead of straight up killing them like Tracer can.

So no. They don't count.
10/11/2017 07:24 PMPosted by Awkward
10/11/2017 07:21 PMPosted by Raz
How do we target that mobility in a way that doesn't render heroes without mobility free kills?


Mei.

Heroes without mobility can't escape her in the first place, so they'll be fighting her on the exact same footing as they currently do.

It's the same logic as the Zarya buff. Graviton is exactly as threatening to someone like a Soldier or McCree post-buff as it was pre-buff, but the buff to Graviton made it significantly more threatening to mobile heroes who could escape it previously.
I agree with this adjustment to Mei. And you can check my post history I've said it before. Basically, when under the "freeze" effects, mobility type abilities (blink, swift strike, sprint) are reduced in effectiveness. By how much is what would be decided (ie: 50% less distance covered, or completely disabled).

Tbh as well, I can't say exactly what occurs right now as I'm usually never paying that close attention to it. I do believe (while blinking through Blizzard) the freeze effect does persist. Blinking doesn't reset the freeze effect. I will freeze at the same time as anyone else even if I'm blinking all over the Blizzard AoE. If I exit it, I believe it has a slight delay before it's completely removed, but again I can't be sure.

I do agree with these changes to Mei though. I think it would be good for her and the meta in general.

Edit: The beam behaves the same way as Blizzard I believe, the thing is when I blink away from the beam I'm out of it and it's very hard for the Mei to keep it on me, so the effect is always interrupted/reset. If a Mei were able to immediately reapply it after a blink, I believe it'd be like it was never interrupted. I am too lazy to test these things.
10/11/2017 07:44 PMPosted by Raz
Tbh as well, I can't say exactly what occurs right now as I'm usually never paying that close attention to it. I do believe (while blinking through Blizzard) the freeze effect does persist. Blinking doesn't reset the freeze effect. I will freeze at the same time as anyone else even if I'm blinking all over the Blizzard AoE. If I exit it, I believe it has a slight delay before it's completely removed, but again I can't be sure.


You're correct. It does persist for a short duration, but Tracer and Genji still move the exact same distance in the exact same duration which allows them a VERY easy escape currently, whereas someone like Soldier will freeze before he sprints away.

The only things that can clear Mei's slow are:

Wraith Form (Reaper)
Fortify (Orisa)
Zarya Bubbles.
Recall (Tracer).

10/11/2017 07:44 PMPosted by Raz
Edit: The beam behaves the same way as Blizzard I believe, the thing is when I blink away from the beam I'm out of it and it's very hard for the Mei to keep it on me, so the effect is always interrupted/reset. If a Mei were able to immediately reapply it after a blink, I believe it'd be like it was never interrupted. I am too lazy to test these things.


Also correct. The slow doesn't last for very long, but the strength of Genji dash and Tracer blinks/recall is that unless they're caught with zero cooldowns, they're virtually guarenteed a free escape from Mei.

Which thematically has always annoyed me, since in almost every game, heroes/classes which rely on slows have been solid counters to super mobile heroes.

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