[MEGATHREAD-UNCAPPED] Symmetras place in the game

General Discussion
Prev 1 264 265 266 313 Next
01/15/2018 04:53 AMPosted by SickSym
I made it to top 500 as an attack and defensive Sym main. Over 700 hours on her.
I solo Q.
I stay out of team chat completely {I play so much better without the stress of people who hate Sym}

I have success with her - and with all that, she does need a little of a buff tweak.

Do I think she needs a major rework? No.
I think a lot of people don't use her correctly which prompts those kind of statements . . . . however ,

things like allowing my team to see my ultimate through walls is an idea that is inexcusable to not have implemented. Her photon barrier needs a faster cooldown - as well as her turrets.

Check out my videos on how to play her - I think a lot of people vastly underplay her.
Which channel? I'm starving for top500 sym gameplay ^^
01/15/2018 06:32 AMPosted by NotoriousQ
I just want to be able to play my favourite character again without it being a huge deal.


Exactly, is like Blizzard says that their design philosophy is play whoever you want but then they implement things like the report system and we're screwed... make up your mind Blizz
01/15/2018 07:20 AMPosted by Mariip
01/15/2018 04:53 AMPosted by SickSym
I made it to top 500 as an attack and defensive Sym main. Over 700 hours on her.
I solo Q.
I stay out of team chat completely {I play so much better without the stress of people who hate Sym}

I have success with her - and with all that, she does need a little of a buff tweak.

Do I think she needs a major rework? No.
I think a lot of people don't use her correctly which prompts those kind of statements . . . . however ,

things like allowing my team to see my ultimate through walls is an idea that is inexcusable to not have implemented. Her photon barrier needs a faster cooldown - as well as her turrets.

Check out my videos on how to play her - I think a lot of people vastly underplay her.
Which channel? I'm starving for top500 sym gameplay ^^
Stevoo has a channel
Bump
What if Energy Orbs exploded into an AOE zone of light after traveling a certain distance or hitting a wall, and any enemy who stepped inside would be gradually damaged until they left, and any ally who walked inside would be granted increasing bonus shields that decayed after leaving
The size of the AOE determined by the amount of charge put into the orb
01/15/2018 11:14 AMPosted by Polyrhythm
What if Energy Orbs exploded into an AOE zone of light after traveling a certain distance or hitting a wall, and any enemy who stepped inside would be gradually damaged until they left, and any ally who walked inside would be granted increasing bonus shields that decayed after leaving
The size of the AOE determined by the amount of charge put into the orb


I find the concept interesting, and love they it gives her more consistent supportive ability. I don't know about having it in her alt fire, I feel that any changes that make her gun stronger will be hated by the community that already feels her gun was too strong.
01/15/2018 11:14 AMPosted by Polyrhythm
What if Energy Orbs exploded into an AOE zone of light after traveling a certain distance or hitting a wall, and any enemy who stepped inside would be gradually damaged until they left, and any ally who walked inside would be granted increasing bonus shields that decayed after leaving
The size of the AOE determined by the amount of charge put into the orb


I find the concept interesting, and love they it gives her more consistent supportive ability. I don't know about having it in her alt fire, I feel that any changes that make her gun stronger will be hated by the community that already feels her gun was too strong.
01/15/2018 11:14 AMPosted by Polyrhythm
What if Energy Orbs exploded into an AOE zone of light after traveling a certain distance or hitting a wall, and any enemy who stepped inside would be gradually damaged until they left, and any ally who walked inside would be granted increasing bonus shields that decayed after leaving
The size of the AOE determined by the amount of charge put into the orb


I find the concept interesting, and love they it gives her more consistent supportive ability. I don't know about having it in her alt fire, I feel that any changes that make her gun stronger will be hated by the community that already feels her gun was too strong.
01/13/2018 03:56 PMPosted by AConstelle
01/13/2018 03:52 PMPosted by Blueblizz
...
it's this:

http://comic.playoverwatch.com/issues/overwatch/4/en-us/pages/6/6-2.jpg

http://comic.playoverwatch.com/issues/overwatch/4/en-us/pages/8/8-5.jpg

That looks like her Photon Orb that's growing and then she uses it to stun the guards.

It would be interesting if her orbs has anti-projectile aspects, giving you more reasons to spam down the choke other than to gain ult or feed the enemy healers their ult.

she's both casting her Force Field and charging her orb. (you can see the bullets bouncing back)
The pseudo healing idea is absolutely amazing. I used to main Sym but I recently switched to Moira because of Syms state in the game. I feel the pseudo healing would fix most to all of her problems with pick rate and toxicity, and it's a very good idea considering its not straight up healing, keeping her as the non healing utility support she was meant to be, which is still a very unique and viable concept of the devs can carry through with it right.
Symmetra is fine, she could need some QoL changes but as a niche char she'll always have some kind of use.
01/15/2018 11:51 AMPosted by nuke
but as a niche char she'll always have some kind of use.

1. She was not designed to be niche. They literally said her rework last year was to make her viable on offense and defense.
2. If she has a niche, where is it? Because I don't see any pros playing her on the maps where she's optimal.
01/15/2018 11:54 AMPosted by AConstelle
01/15/2018 11:51 AMPosted by nuke
but as a niche char she'll always have some kind of use.

1. She was not designed to be niche. They literally said her rework last year was to make her viable on offense and defense.
2. If she has a niche, where is it? Because I don't see any pros playing her on the maps where she's optimal.


Not every hero has to be played by the pros. There are other heroes like Torb or Mei we do not see very often in ultra high level play.
In all honesty, I feel like Symmetra's shield generator synergizes too well with Torb's armor packs, creating a specific situation where she is actually overpowered as opposed to underpowered.

When she only gave 25 shields, it let people heal players while they had armor packs, but the armor would at least take damage. A mccree shot would be reduced to 55 from 70 by the shield, then reduced an extra 5 by the armor, dealing 50 armor damage. With 75, on the other hand, it's entirely possible to drive off an attacker or take a shot from mccree or other heroes without your armor even taking significant damage, meaning the next armor pack torb deploys gets stockpiled rather than used up.

That inevitably leads to a situation where the team has 10 armor packs on the ground, 6 on players, and 4 more in stockpile, meaning the attacking team has to burn through not an extra 450 shields or 450 armor, but 1950 combined health. At that point, they become effectively invincible outside of ult combos.

And that means there's a disproportionate benefit to comboing a sym and a torb. Somehow, that needs to be addressed before you buff other parts of her kit, because otherwise you'll end up seeing sym+torb defenses in every single game because it already worked well and now works even better.

Personally, I want to see Shield Gen removed and her shields reverted to the way they were before, but automatic rather than manual.
01/15/2018 12:11 PMPosted by nuke
01/15/2018 11:54 AMPosted by AConstelle
...
1. She was not designed to be niche. They literally said her rework last year was to make her viable on offense and defense.
2. If she has a niche, where is it? Because I don't see any pros playing her on the maps where she's optimal.


Not every hero has to be played by the pros. There are other heroes like Torb or Mei we do not see very often in ultra high level play.


I feel like they are bad examples of your point, as both are seen as troll picks just like symmetra. All three don't see that level of play because they are considered too underpowered.
01/15/2018 12:11 PMPosted by nuke
Not every hero has to be played by the pros.

Then what's the point in calling her niche if the best of the best can't make her work in literally any situation?

They've at least tried with Torb and Mei, and that's not to say either of them are in a good place either.

She doesn't have to be meta, just a viable alternative to Zen or Lucio.
01/15/2018 11:54 AMPosted by AConstelle
01/15/2018 11:51 AMPosted by nuke
but as a niche char she'll always have some kind of use.

1. She was not designed to be niche. They literally said her rework last year was to make her viable on offense and defense.
2. If she has a niche, where is it? Because I don't see any pros playing her on the maps where she's optimal.


Not every hero has to be played by the pros. There are other heroes like Torb or Mei we do not see very often in ultra high level play.
And that's a problem, and both torb and mei are the other two most often called for buffs.
11/03/2017 11:57 PMPosted by Jsleezy
This is extremely long, but I want to illustrate Symmetras problems and how to fix them, hopefully to enlighten the devs on how to fix her. There's not really a TLDR, but if you want to get the gist of it, skim through the bolded areas.

Hi Guys. I’ve been hesitant to post this thread, and instead wanted to wait until after Blizzcon to do so. There’s been a huge surge of concern over Symmetra’s place in the game, so much so that there are 3 Megathreads (all from people in masters, with obvious game sense) on making her more supportive in the general forum, and a reddit thread with 3000+ upvotes.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20759249296?page=1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20758668065?page=1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20759257002?page=1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20759220930?page=1
https://www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/comments/7afy3b/the_change_for_symmetra_we_didnt_know_we_needed/?utm_term=b41127a9-d761-42ca-93eb-d750b12c3337&utm_medium=search&utm_source=reddit&utm_name=Overwatch&utm_content=1

After hearing the recent Q&A regarding Symmetra, it’s kind of clear that the developers are somewhat unsure of her place in the game, and so I’m hoping that this thread will concisely summarize her issues as well as give the developers clear knowledge of how to fix her, rather than recategorizing her.

Blizzcon Q&A:

Any plans to make Symmetra more viable in competitive? Maybe healing abilities?
Symmetra doesn't really fit well in the support category, but doesn't fit in defense either. In the future we might need to revist the categories to better accomodate changes with the game.
Symmetra doesn't see much play in high competitive, but her recent toolkit change brought some interesting changes that made her more viable.


Please, please, developers. It’s obvious you listen to us, otherwise a Talon Healer wouldn’t have been the next hero despite the massive demand for her. The community obviously wants her to be more supportive. Recategorizing her will not fix her fundamental issues when there are currently better, more intuitive options in the game for her niche (junkrat), as well as more supportive options for her niche coming as well (moira).

From the Patch concerning her rework:
"We wanted to address two main issues with Symmetra. First, on the whole, we felt that she didn’t feel active enough. Second, due to the nature of her Teleporter, she felt weak in certain situations on different maps and game modesTo address the first point, we replaced her more passive Photon Shield ability with a much more active ability: Photon Barrier. Now, Symmetra can help lead the charge on offense or help shut down a big push on defense by actively blocking damage for your team. For the second point, we noticed players would often switch off of Symmetra once they found themselves in a situation where her Teleporter wasn’t as useful. For example, when playing her on defense on an Assault map, players often used her to defend the first capture point, then quickly switched to another hero if that point fell. To help her feel more useful in more situations, we've given her an alternative to her Teleporter. The Shield Generator is just as important for the enemy to deal with, but is useful in more situations. ."


This is important to note, as she is the most passive support out of all 5, and she is also the most situational. She is not viable on attack, as the intention of the rework. The first rework failed its intended purpose.

You can read through this or skim to the bolded sections. While a lot of people argue that Symmetra is strong within her niche. That is precisely the issue with her. When she was most viable was within her Niche on chokes such as Hanamura, Eichenwalde, and Volksaya defense. There were numerous complaints on how hard chokes were to break through, so developers made several balancing adjustments, both to the maps, and characters who had either abilities or mobility to deal with the chokes. From that point onwards, new map development gave a lot of alternative pathways and elevation that lessened her Niche's effectiveness and gave numerous easy options for counterplay, not to mention she’s not very viable outside of her niche, either.

The point? The newest maps, newest characters, and newest buffs to heroes mean that her original Niche is shrinking, and her viability outside that niche is dismal if not compromising to the team. AKA: She’s not relevant to the current version of the game.

The elephant in the room: She is the utility support, however, she is the only support whose utility mechanics are not readily available for use (speed, discord, damage boost) while the other support who has utility on cooldown has two highly active, flexible utility abilities that have a variety of uses that outclass Photon Barrier, and have less counters than her turrets do. The other issue is that all of these support alternatives not only have better utility in their actual kit (not taking into account ultimates), but all the other support utility is in conjunction to healing. She was designed as a damage mitigating, utility support, that defends the backlines; however, almost all of the support in her kit comes from her ultimate, which makes her the only character who is balanced entirely around the merit of her ultimate- which is one of her design flaws, if this patch from Blizzard is any indication:

Game-changing ultimate abilities were coming up a bit too frequently. This change helps keep them in check while still allowing them to be powerful.

(universal nerf to ultimate charge)

If a character is balanced around an ultimate, then it is likely that their kit is lacking. Symmetra has the lowest ultimate costs in the game, and can keep her ultimate up indefinitely. This should raise concerns as to what part of her kit makes this necessary in her design. They wanted her to more engaging in the rework, with more of a capacity for proactive and reactive engagement, but her kit has most of the most passive abilities in the game. Also important to note, if all of her her supportive merit is funneled into her destructible ultimates, she will always lose to Zen/Lucio, who don’t need their ultimate or to keep a structure alive to be supportive. Not only that, but her supportive capacity was originally her E, which rightly means that her original design did not involve a passive ultimate to provide support.

Please, complete her kit. We know this is something you’re capable of doing. Within the last month, you completed Mercy’s kit due to the feedback of DPS mains. This is feedback from the people who play the character. Please fix her.

She doesn’t NEED to heal, but she suffers from an incomplete kit as a support character.

(if you need proof she's a support) Luminums videos show her potential as a support, but watching his videos often makes it clear to me that her kit is just not as cohesive as the other characters in the game, even the defense characters which skeptics seem to be convinced she is. His best plays are supportive plays, so she obviously has potential as a support. She just plays more like an offensive support, similar to Zen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1GvmBQk8-s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flWwBFCTjsU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBbe7ylCy18

(this was patched but shows how he needs high game sense, and to be innovative to a crazy level to succeed with her limited kit)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sJwuH1BMwY
(this video shows the potential of team flanks at 4:10)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YhsywtY2OM
(and this video shows why symmetra falls short as a support… she needs her team to support her for her to support them. She’s more follow-through dependent than any other support because she lacks support in her actual kit, but people will troll you because they see you as a “troll pick”)

He makes great plays, saving his team from reinhardt ultimates, making team flanks, etc. But really, while that’s amazing, there’s not much he can do inbetween that except try to make picks. While other offsupports like lucio/zen, have their utility up (speed/discord) in addition to no cooldown, no ultimate options for heals (heal aura/harmony orb).

Quality of Life adjustments for Symmetra are necessary, but if that is all she receives, she likely won't have a place in the game as the game evolves.

The best, and most commonly suggested Quality of Life suggestions are:

Turrets: Reduce the delay in placing and "activating" the turrets after you deploy them, as well as remove the slow that Symmetra is afflicted with when placing them.

Ultimates: Let them be seen through walls for teammates, as well as willful deconstruction of her barrier generator so a skilled Symmetra can change her nesting location, similarly to how a widowmaker will change her sniping location. Let her deconstruct her teleporter to redeem some of her ult charge if the charges are running low. Also, allow her to build her ultimates on walls and ceilings at slightly longer range, so her setups become less predictable.

(via AConstelle) Remove the 5-6 second delay she has on gaining ult when her Shield Generator is destroyed. The delay isn't there for TP, but it is for Shield Gen for some reason, and 6 seconds is a lot of time for Sym. Also the blue line indicating the Shield Gen's radius would be swell.


Photon Barrier: There have been numerous suggestions for this ability. Increase the charges on it, decrease the cooldown, give her more control over it. The biggest consistent complaint I've seen with this ability is the fact that Symmetra has a harder time contributing with this support utility than other supports have contributing with their utility that is often on a lower cooldown or does not have a cooldown while simultaneously being easier skills to contribute with. This ability needs to be able to compete with an offhealing slot, period. It’s her only active support ability.

The other point I want to bring up is that she is the only support who has a viable alternative to rez, which a lot of people are concerned about.

[Moderator edit - I removed the direct call-out to the Dev team. The Feedback here is greatly appreciated but the idea of the forums is a discussion among players. The Dev team has access to the discussion and may take part in the discussion but the main focus is the discussion. Not shutting this down just trying to redirect the focus :) ]


Maybe a UI for when tele is up and how many charges are left.
Lower cooldowns on the turrets would be so helpful.
I still argue that they shouldn't have a cooldown at all.

And I'll always be hopeful that one day we get 9 sentries lol
Total Mayhem Sym is actually pretty fun because you can almost always have all your Sentries up all the time even with just a 50% CD reduction

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum