[MEGATHREAD-UNCAPPED] Symmetras place in the game

General Discussion
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If they totally change her i will burn you all' ♥
Unpopular opinion: Symmetra does not need an "active" support ability. her primary support functionality is based on an "earn it" system, while her secondary utility is designed to be actively used.

Healing is an active supportive ability. it isn't an instant and permanent change, it's an active clapback to damage.

What Symmetra is designed to is something entirely different. "Bonus Shields" as a concept cannot be an active ability without being braindead or situationally overpowered. Decaying shields maybe, but that's literally just a worse form of healing. Bonus shields are powerful because they're permanent. but a permanent change means the caster does not need to be present. and a permanent change needs to be earned in order to be fair and fluid.

That's what the Shield Generator is. an earned boost, and it's a damn powerful one.

Symmetra is ABOUT bonus shields, and bonus shields need to be earned. so her conceptual design is just fine. the problem with her kit is not what it is but how it is executed.

She needs to have those secondary utility skills in order to fit in a fast paced team shooter game, otherwise she'll get stomped every time.

* Photon Barrier needs to be more relevant in a team fight
* Sentry turrets need to make the guarded zone actually dangerous in a way that isn't just scary raw damage
* Energy Orbs need to be better at disrupting multiple targets
* Photon Projector needs to threaten overaggressive flankers

Her kit doesn't need to have new moves, her existing moves need to do their jobs right. she has tools for every situation, but they just aren't good at what they do
So what situations do you all want Symm to be viable in with this eventual fix?

Honestly I just want to be able to pick her at any given moment to keep a main healer alive.

((I love the CTF comp btw. I can actually play her and feel useful))
Can I just say how amazing it is to see that in the end we got our goal

And we obliteratedthe official mercy thread

And we got mai stream ow news channel coverage
Despite not having a blue post here, Jeff's acknowledgement is more than enough for me.

This means Symmetra is next on their hero fix radar and they're already working on things isn't everyone excited!

Oh also, Happy Valentines day all
02/13/2018 09:46 PMPosted by Nox
If they totally change her i will burn you all' ♥
Most people wanted QoL changes and small stuff, I don't like the idea of making mini teles and stuff, and if she start aiming i'll be mad lol
We just wanna attack sym without Timmy screaming at us *shrug*
We don't need another mercy
Support sym plz I don't want her to be a dps
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=rDbkDWsyguU

They are making some brainstorm for Symmetra, but said they want Thorb to be used in more situations than he currently is, I guess they want to end that niche talk after all...
i'm really curious to see where they're gonna go with symmetra after watching that new update
02/14/2018 11:27 AMPosted by Mariip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=rDbkDWsyguU

They are making some brainstorm for Symmetra, but said they want Thorb to be used in more situations than he currently is, I guess they want to end that niche talk after all...


If is true then Yaaaas! Finally

Im so happy that even though our megathread didnt get a blue post we still got a response via dev update! We made it guys!
if we ever get a response at this point it'll probably be when they have a PTR build to show...I'm guessing it'll come in a month or 2, it all depends on how well things are going
Yup, we're getting an answer from JF. But, it's frustrated by the Developer Update. 30 sec to talk about two heroes who are stigmatized by the community, without giving any hints on their brainstorm.
Well, it's obvious they can't give us an idea of rework but the words of Jeff sounds hollow.
Sounds like Symm might be getting something big. Perhaps more buildables through her shift? I'd love to see a light floor panel. Walking on it gives a lucio like speed boost for 2 seconds. Or a jump pad. Or buffs to her existing kit. I'm desperate okay....
Random idea, might be dumb. What if you could swap ults at the cost of "ult charge debt"? So say you've had a SG up for a while but suddenly a TP would be really useful. Or you have TP but it's down to one charge that won't help much if a lot of people go down? You could refund it for the other but the next ult you build towards costs 50% more. If you refunded it twice, the next ult would cost twice as much ult charge, etc. You'd have more flexibility but you'd also have to plan ahead. It would also give more reward to enemies if they manage to destroy it after a couple of refunds, keeping it balanced.
Here's my input on Symmetra:

I'd like it if her secondary fire was closer to Mei's than as it is currently. Sure it is powerful, but it is also very slow and easy to avoid unless someone seriously messes up or accidentally runs into an orb from turning a corner. It's not very useful, and everyone just sticks to the primary fire. Not that it's wrong, as most characters only have one, but that's just another aspect that makes her kit weaker. I haven't found much use for it apart from spamming a choke point and it barely does the trick, Junkrat gets more out of it than Symmetra. All I have to do on the opposite side of seeing Symmetra's orb is stepping aside or blocking it (if I am DVa). If not like Mei's precise quick shot, maybe a spread of three orbs like Genji's right click but with a shorter distance? Or maybe even a lash, similar to the Dragoon's weapon from Mass Effect 3 that can strike precisely up to a certain distance just to do a more precise but longer distanced strike. It can use up some of the ammo of their primary as well, much like Zarya, Mei, Lucio, Zen... It would be a neat idea as she uses her weapon to latch onto players close range and then lash at someone further away. She is someone with an ability to bend light after all.

Her shield I enjoy but at the same time, feel it can be lacking. I understand why it moves, so that Symmetra can charge after long range DPS like Soldier, McCree, etc. What is irksome about it is that depending on the terrain, if you are standing in a specific spot it won't deploy or it will immediately break upon being released. I once deployed it and it broke against a street sign on Numbani. Not sure if a bug, but things like that are frustrating. And like many others, I've deployed it and the delay for the animation allows someone to injure me through it. Controlling the movement would be interesting. Pressing "E" once to have it at normal speed and holding "E" down to increase the speed of its movement.

An example would be when DVa ults, I always keep my E available so I can avoid her ult by deploying it a few milliseconds before her MEKA detonates. But there have been times I'd like to save teammates close to the MEKA when it is further down. Being able to increase the speed of the shield from further away to protect teammates would be nice. As is, Rein/Orisa/Mei have more forgiving ways to save a team due to the size of the shields/ice wall whereas Symmetra's is just an oblong shape and boy you better not be on the outer edge of it! Or another interesting option would be upon pressing E and holding it down, for it's duration (on a time based system) you can change it's position depending on where you aim. Somewhat like DVa's defense matrix, except it can block things DVa can't (such as Zarya beams) while being unable to block things DVa can (such as Pharah ults, they always seem to break everything outside of Defense Matrix).

People have been suggesting the idea of mini-teleporters that allow maybe 2-3 people to pass through before destroying and being on a long cooldown. The issue with that is that the reason people were upset with Mercy instant-resurrecting was because they felt their hard work was for nothing if she swooped in and brought two players killed back to life. This would operate similarly in that players killed a few seconds ago would immediately return to the scene to continue the team-fight or stall. It's already annoying enough as an ult, let alone as an ability. Let's add the fact that it would probably be destructible, Symmetra deployed it and someone destroyed it constantly. Then you are left with a rather useless ability that is constantly on cooldown. On the opposing side, say the attacking team cannot break through defense and she has a teleporter up constantly because this time it is a cooldown rather than an ult she has to build. Seems broken.

As for her sentries, I've seen many suggestions. One in particular saying they should provide a small shield aura to allies since they're only 1 HP to mitigate for the lack of healing if there is only one healer, which is an interesting idea. I've also wondered about whether she could choose between two sentry types? The standard beams and perhaps something else that can do a different type of damage or even something sort of like a trap? Once you press shift, left and right click have two respective options. The second maybe... a sentry that "detonates" and fills the screen with light say for the duration of McCree's flashbang? Not necessarily to secure kills for Symmetra, but to take flankers by surprise as well as alert Sym that it went off, so that she can let her teammates know there is a Tracer or what have you prowling in the backlines. Or even to use it as a getaway in sticky situations. You or an ally getting chased by a counter? Run into a room rigged with a light sentry and let the blinded enemy lose track of you for a few seconds.

Perhaps all those changes together might be a bit much (haha) or it might actually make her a more viable builder with a harder skill set in terms of gamesense and defense. I know some players wouldn't like that, but as it is, people rarely play her, sometimes you'll get yelled at for playing her (and I've heard some have been getting reported just for picking her), and her defenses without teammate assistance/another builder are easy to destroy.
02/13/2018 10:34 PMPosted by Polyrhythm
Unpopular opinion: Symmetra does not need an "active" support ability. her primary support functionality is based on an "earn it" system, while her secondary utility is designed to be actively used.

Healing is an active supportive ability. it isn't an instant and permanent change, it's an active clapback to damage.

What Symmetra is designed to is something entirely different. "Bonus Shields" as a concept cannot be an active ability without being braindead or situationally overpowered. Decaying shields maybe, but that's literally just a worse form of healing. Bonus shields are powerful because they're permanent. but a permanent change means the caster does not need to be present. and a permanent change needs to be earned in order to be fair and fluid.

That's what the Shield Generator is. an earned boost, and it's a damn powerful one.

Symmetra is ABOUT bonus shields, and bonus shields need to be earned. so her conceptual design is just fine. the problem with her kit is not what it is but how it is executed.

She needs to have those secondary utility skills in order to fit in a fast paced team shooter game, otherwise she'll get stomped every time.

* Photon Barrier needs to be more relevant in a team fight
* Sentry turrets need to make the guarded zone actually dangerous in a way that isn't just scary raw damage
* Energy Orbs need to be better at disrupting multiple targets
* Photon Projector needs to threaten overaggressive flankers

Her kit doesn't need to have new moves, her existing moves need to do their jobs right. she has tools for every situation, but they just aren't good at what they do


I disagree, Symmetras killing potential is exceptional when her team has MOMENTUM. She can mow people down fairly well and cement the momentum that her team has gained. The problem is she has no team synergy outside of a pocket Mercy or Torb. She can't help her team gain momentum like any other support or dps, and that's problematic. Yet, if you increase her killing potential too much, she can become really oppressive to lower skill players and really rewarding to play to lower skill players, which is unfair. Also, with the ultimate support system she's given an incentive to play off point and away from team, it's just kind of bad right now and without team play when will the false reports stop?

I do agree that current kit can be improved (photon barrier spawning closer, shield gen assists when granted a kill below 75 hp, etc) but yeah too many changes to killing probably wouldn't make her any more desirable in a team setting which is problematic.

My issue with your suggestions is, sentry turrets are strong when they work. Very helpful. Making them more strong will probably make them too strong when they work.

Photon barrier is a really hard skill to use and weirdly designed but raises her skillcap.

Orbs are her skill shot. I don't want them changed too much. They're exceptionally powerful on chokes re Orisas, and they're very rewarding when you learn how to aim them. How do you improve these abilities without making her too strong where they're strongest?

Niche is not good design. It shouldn't be Symmetra on first point defense or instant loss, because all it does is cement the roles of her already new counters like DVA and Winston. And then she's right back to square one where her kit was buffed, yeah, but it doesn't matter because her new and improved kit is still obsolete in the face of better designed characters.

That's why I feel like enabling her team to get the momentum required for her kit to work is so necessary.
I guess I'll go ahead and make some predictions for what I think theyre going to do with Symmetra, and also what I myself think would help improve her. Incoming long post:

First, I think she has all the elements she needs in her kit, to some extent. Like the teleporter, shield generator and crowd control turrets all have a lot of potential in my eyes, but they're all completely watered down. The turrets have a long set up time, have a minuscule impact when they're not stacked together in a microwave, and die extremely easily. I think they're going to reevaluate what the turrets are supposed to be doing and hopefully they'll adjust them so that they have better individual impact and are less suppressive when stacked together. I could see them having a greater individual slowdown on the enemy but have a cap when stacked together, giving Symmetra more area control since she can focus less of her turrets in one area. They could even buff the health they have to like a junkrat mine level but reduce the damage, I wouldn't hate that either. But if they keep the damage the same I don't see them buffing the health beyond 1 hit.

I think the ultimate is also going to see a change. Maybe this is optimistic, but I would like for them to separate the shield generator and teleporter. I feel like having these abilities tied together, only having access to one or another, hurts Symmetra's character. I think the most balanced thing to do would be to put the Teleporter on a cooldown this time and focus the ultimate entirely on the shield generator. I'm not sure exactly how the cooldown could work with the TP, maybe she gets access to it right away with 1 charge, and can keep adding charges until it's expired or destroyed, then it starts an actual cooldown, akin to Mercy's rez. I know a lot of people are going to think this is overpowered with the way Mercy was recently changed, and maybe thats why they'll shy away from this suggestion altogether, but I think that the teleporter is fundamentally a better cooldown ability than an instant rez. You still have to remove yourself from combat to put the teleporter down, the person still has to wait the 10 seconds, her teleporter would still be destructible, the only real difference would be she has access to it more often, which I think would be a welcome improvement, and cement her utility as a support.

If they moved her teleporter to a cooldown, this would open up her shield generator to more possibilities, since it won't be tied to another ability (teleporter). They could increase the ult charge rate but buff the shield generator to actually make an impact on a team fight. I've suggested this before, but I think it would be nice for Symmetra to have an actual support ultimate, akin to Lucio or Zenyatta's ultimate. The shield generator can be an orisa-style AOE buff that lasts a certain amount of time, maybe 10 seconds or something. Maybe make it so that the SG generates 100 shield health that constantly regenerates, but you must be within line of sight of the SG. They could even drastically reduce the range. This would make her SG less of an "all or nothing" low-base-value ultimate, and more of an incredibly powerful but counterable ultimate. Even if it gets destroyed before it's 10 seconds are up, the impact it has will be undeniable compared to the way the SG functions today.

I don't even think they would necessarily need to remove the photon barrier from her kit, maybe just tweak the shape of it and slightly adjust the cooldown, and it would still flow with her new kit. The barrier would act as supplementary support to go along with her real time support from buffed turrets, a teleporter and a strong defensive ultimate. Nobody would question her value, she'd be flexible in more areas than just first point defense, but would still have plenty of counterplay and areas of weakness. It wouldn't turn her into a god-tier support, but it will give you a reason to play her on defense (and maybe sometimes offense) over the other support heroes. No healing required!
If anyone can come up with unique solutions to imbalances it's the devs

I trust them
I really think Symmetra can benefit well from being able to deploy jump pads and bridges since while she can't give support in the healing sense, she can provide positional support, which would help many heroes like Ana out.

While the idea of Sym making bridges would be hard to implement, it would be help her out in the long run.
02/14/2018 04:55 PMPosted by SilentStorm
I really think Symmetra can benefit well from being able to deploy jump pads and bridges since while she can't give support in the healing sense, she can provide positional support, which would help many heroes like Ana out.

While the idea of Sym making bridges would be hard to implement, it would be help her out in the long run.
I like jump pads but I think it fits torbs kit better. It synergizes with his turret really well while it doesn't mesh well with Syms current kit (thought it is super cool from a lore perspective )

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