[MEGATHREAD-UNCAPPED] Symmetras place in the game

General Discussion
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I really like the idea of a stretchy Photon Barrier. Sort of like an obstacle barrier, the more you shoot it the more it slows down and stretches out, but it has less HP
This is how I see Symm should be designed.

She is the bridge character from people that like RTS’s. She’s the builder. The resource manager.

So what do you do. You first decide what should be her ult. Considering it should be something useful on all maps.. it should be the shield gen.

Then you move TP to a normal build. You make it so you can cycle through builds. It is a shared refillable meter with her turrets. Make TP cost a lot, say all 6 or three for a single use. Or why limit it to just 6 as the max resources stored (but keep max turrets at 6) and make the TP cost 12 or some balanced amount.

Then have it so you can add charges to it with resources.. say it costs 3-6 resources to add a charge, like half the cost of placing a new one so it rewards the symm’s who keep their TP up and prevents overuse and spamming of the TP. It also allows it to still become a team moving objective if you’ve built up enough resources to make it work.. which would be very handy on attack when you wouldn’t be placing too many turrets.

I would prob also remove the slow effect of placing and make the resource meter fill faster.

Finally, make her turrets when they engage on an enemy show their outline to the whole team.

Now, if you really must make her a healer (which i don’t think is necessary) you would add a seperate buildable.. like a health pack station. I would save that for a different hero though.

The conclusion is to have her play like a RTS hero with some elements that make her viable in a fps to defend herseld like her microwave.

I don’t think they will do this since they seem to want her to be a character that helps support a given area. But it would be really cool to really give the RTS people a good viable hero to play.
Give her turrets a bit more HP (i.e. more than 1 hp) so they can't be sniped by D.Vas across the map.
I am really excited to see what they change about Symmetra! I hope it doesn’t take to long for them to be added to the PTR. I hope they don’t add any healing capabilities to her.

She is a utility/shield support and I hope they make her more of a active support. She is a light bending architect and that means that they have endless possibilities they can do with that!
02/14/2018 01:19 PMPosted by Jsleezy
02/13/2018 10:34 PMPosted by Polyrhythm
Unpopular opinion: Symmetra does not need an "active" support ability. her primary support functionality is based on an "earn it" system, while her secondary utility is designed to be actively used.

Healing is an active supportive ability. it isn't an instant and permanent change, it's an active clapback to damage.

What Symmetra is designed to is something entirely different. "Bonus Shields" as a concept cannot be an active ability without being braindead or situationally overpowered. Decaying shields maybe, but that's literally just a worse form of healing. Bonus shields are powerful because they're permanent. but a permanent change means the caster does not need to be present. and a permanent change needs to be earned in order to be fair and fluid.

That's what the Shield Generator is. an earned boost, and it's a damn powerful one.

Symmetra is ABOUT bonus shields, and bonus shields need to be earned. so her conceptual design is just fine. the problem with her kit is not what it is but how it is executed.

She needs to have those secondary utility skills in order to fit in a fast paced team shooter game, otherwise she'll get stomped every time.

* Photon Barrier needs to be more relevant in a team fight
* Sentry turrets need to make the guarded zone actually dangerous in a way that isn't just scary raw damage
* Energy Orbs need to be better at disrupting multiple targets
* Photon Projector needs to threaten overaggressive flankers

Her kit doesn't need to have new moves, her existing moves need to do their jobs right. she has tools for every situation, but they just aren't good at what they do


I disagree, Symmetras killing potential is exceptional when her team has MOMENTUM. She can mow people down fairly well and cement the momentum that her team has gained. The problem is she has no team synergy outside of a pocket Mercy or Torb. She can't help her team gain momentum like any other support or dps, and that's problematic. Yet, if you increase her killing potential too much, she can become really oppressive to lower skill players and really rewarding to play to lower skill players, which is unfair. Also, with the ultimate support system she's given an incentive to play off point and away from team, it's just kind of bad right now and without team play when will the false reports stop?

I do agree that current kit can be improved (photon barrier spawning closer, shield gen assists when granted a kill below 75 hp, etc) but yeah too many changes to killing probably wouldn't make her any more desirable in a team setting which is problematic.

My issue with your suggestions is, sentry turrets are strong when they work. Very helpful. Making them more strong will probably make them too strong when they work.

Photon barrier is a really hard skill to use and weirdly designed but raises her skillcap.

Orbs are her skill shot. I don't want them changed too much. They're exceptionally powerful on chokes re Orisas, and they're very rewarding when you learn how to aim them. How do you improve these abilities without making her too strong where they're strongest?

Niche is not good design. It shouldn't be Symmetra on first point defense or instant loss, because all it does is cement the roles of her already new counters like DVA and Winston. And then she's right back to square one where her kit was buffed, yeah, but it doesn't matter because her new and improved kit is still obsolete in the face of better designed characters.

That's why I feel like enabling her team to get the momentum required for her kit to work is so necessary.

Aiming with her Orbs isn't the issue, it's that they are completely avoidable and outside of shooting a singular target slow-moving target behind a shield (Orisa or Reinhardt) are not incredibly useful. Not to mention if you switch to attack Symmetra to shoot through an Orisa shield or Rein at a choke point, you get yelled at for even thinking of picking her. She needs something more sustainable as a secondary so that your teammates view her as more viable as a support. She is incredibly niche, you have to be up close to even deal damage (despite not having to aim) but long distance just destroys her considering she is very slow / her shield often times can move faster than she does. Don't know if it's a bug though. But it has happened to me.

I don't think changing her secondary to something a bit more long distance would change much, if anything it'd make her similar to Mei in that they're dangerous up close more so than further away.
I’m glad the new icons are finally up! :-)
Anyone curious on what aspect of their kit there looking on reiterating for Symmetra? I'm really hoping that it's not just number adjustments and it's also an overhaul to her support ( in her actual kit).

But then they haven't really been as vocal for Symmetra as the other heroes so I don't know if they're listening to the community or they're going to separate direction. I'm kind of worried that she is going to get the Mei treatment. Where they kind of listen, but only to stop the community feedback on her.

I'd really like any kind of confirmation that they're looking into the Symmetra suggestions that aren't just on this thread, but are on every thread.
And also exactly what they agree and disagree with Symmetra players on.

They can't exactly listen to the master players on the developer team, or the pro players, because none of them play Symmetra. I really hope that they listen to Lum, hoshi, and stevo and rework her without changing her playstyle. The community perception of Symmetra on a team is a huge factor for how much fun the Symmetra player will have playing within a team.

Also I know some Symmetra players want her to be more intuitive killing wise, but I've been practicing with her and she does have a hidden skill cap that is very rewarding to unlock.

I honestly agree with Jeff that the wrong buffs will make her too strong but also simultaneously make her unfun to play with. She has no team synergy but a nest can take out several ultimates or characters with only a Symmetra. Number adjustments may just make her too strong without fixing her fundamental issues. I really wish that the development team would be more vocal when it comes to just how they're looking at fixing Symmetra. I know that they don't have a final idea of what to refine for her kit, but I'd at least like to know what they've narrowed down to be the problem with Symmetra is.

Before any changes, I really hope they begin with the perception of her support. Shield gen should track shields generated rather than uptime, as well as defensive assists (any kills made while under 75 hp), and turrets should track offensive assists. That alone would do so much for her perception from teammates (wouldn't help understand when Symmetra is making an impact. I never know just when shield gen is assisting my team, what kind of support ability is that? It seems almost unfinished. After that, they can work on how to make her kit more contributing to a team.
I was wondering this morning which is the most anoying ability in the game and i came with a conclusion.

Lúcio Boop
Pharah Boop

But those are enemy effect abilities, so give Symmetra an ally Boop.

Sonic pads - Deploy a pad that boop Symmetra and allies in 5 meters in one direction when they step on it, its destructible and distracted enemies are booped backwards 3 meters.

It will give Symmetra more area denial (her niche), an engage/disengage ability and a support ability.
02/15/2018 02:29 PMPosted by Jsleezy
Anyone curious on what aspect of their kit there looking on reiterating for Symmetra? I'm really hoping that it's not just number adjustments and it's also an overhaul to her support ( in her actual kit).

But then they haven't really been as vocal for Symmetra as the other heroes so I don't know if they're listening to the community or they're going to separate direction. I'm kind of worried that she is going to get the Mei treatment. Where they kind of listen, but only to stop the community feedback on her.

I'd really like any kind of confirmation that they're looking into the Symmetra suggestions that aren't just on this thread, but are on every thread.
And also exactly what they agree and disagree with Symmetra players on.

They can't exactly listen to the master players on the developer team, or the pro players, because none of them play Symmetra. I really hope that they listen to Lum, hoshi, and stevo and rework her without changing her playstyle. The community perception of Symmetra on a team is a huge factor for how much fun the Symmetra player will have playing within a team.

Also I know some Symmetra players want her to be more intuitive killing wise, but I've been practicing with her and she does have a hidden skill cap that is very rewarding to unlock.

I honestly agree with Jeff that the wrong buffs will make her too strong but also simultaneously make her unfun to play with. She has no team synergy but a nest can take out several ultimates or characters with only a Symmetra. Number adjustments may just make her too strong without fixing her fundamental issues. I really wish that the development team would be more vocal when it comes to just how they're looking at fixing Symmetra. I know that they don't have a final idea of what to refine for her kit, but I'd at least like to know what they've narrowed down to be the problem with Symmetra is.

Before any changes, I really hope they begin with the perception of her support. Shield gen should track shields generated rather than uptime, as well as defensive assists (any kills made while under 75 hp), and turrets should track offensive assists. That alone would do so much for her perception from teammates (wouldn't help understand when Symmetra is making an impact. I never know just when shield gen is assisting my team, what kind of support ability is that? It seems almost unfinished. After that, they can work on how to make her kit more contributing to a team.


This is what annoys me.

They could change ANYTHING about her. Not knowing what it will be has me so annoyed because I want to know what they think lol.

Photon Barrier needs to be better or reworked completely.

Sentries could use some love.

Otherwise making simple changes like making her ults and sentry turrets visible through walls to teammates would be helpful and giving her proper card stats would help improve her teams perception of her value which is currently at an all time low.
Symmetra is trash, and I'll show you pickrates to prove it. Let's look at her stats from the past week.

Oh, and we all know about her winrate, hm? Let's ignore that because it's massively inflated.

Bronze

Mercy - 28.17%
Moira - 26.91%
Lucio - 16.81%
Zenyatta - 13.29%
Ana - 9.96%
Symmetra - 4.87%

Silver
Moira - 29.11%
Mercy - 26.44%
Lucio -14.69%
Zenyatta - 14.11%
Ana - 12.12%
Symmetra - 3.53%

Gold
Moira - 30.41%
Mercy - 23.86%
Zenyatta - 15.41%
Ana - 14.95%
Lucio - 12.83%
Symmetra - 2.53%

Platinum
Moira - 32.04%
Mercy - 20.40%
Ana - 17.28%
Zenyatta - 17.01%
Lucio - 11.42%
Symmetra - 1.85%

Diamond
Moira - 31.53%
Zenyatta - 19.85%
Mercy - 18.27%
Ana - 17.13%
Lucio - 11.43%
Symmetra - 1.80%

Masters
Moira - 33.68%
Zenyatta - 22.49%
Mercy - 14.36%
Ana - 14.06%
Lucio - 13.89%
Symmetra - 1.52%

Grandmasters
Moira - 33.69%
Zenyatta - 24.52%
Lucio - 20.94%
Mercy - 9.80%
Ana - 9.38%
Symmetra - 1.67%

Never does Sym's pick rate go above 5%. Ever. Not even in Bronze.

I love playing Sym, but she's just so useless in any comp. Ugh.
02/15/2018 03:38 PMPosted by Haceous
I was wondering this morning which is the most anoying ability in the game and i came with a conclusion.

Lúcio Boop
Pharah Boop

But those are enemy effect abilities, so give Symmetra an ally Boop.

Sonic pads - Deploy a pad that boop Symmetra and allies in 5 meters in one direction when they step on it, its destructible and distracted enemies are booped backwards 3 meters.

It will give Symmetra more area denial (her niche), an engage/disengage ability and a support ability.


Or better yet, she can decide the direction of the boop and boop them into your nest *Snickers emote*
BUMPING.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHB9NdHa4vg

Hoshi's take on possible reworks in her kit.

My take-aways:
1. She has no consistent way of supporting her team outside of her ultimates
2. Her turrets could use QoL
3. She may need more utility/supportive turrets that don't just damage enemies but help your team

More or less a lot of stuff that's been said here. Not a lot was said about Photon Barrier, but if you were going to add another consistent, active ability could sustain her team it'd likely replace Photon Barrier.

Finally, I also hope they balance Symmetra more or less around actual Symmetra player's experience and not for the average player. I really hope they don't go the Torvald path (from Paladins, he had a lock-on beam like Symmetra initially but then was reworked with a generic projectile weapon) just for people who think she's a bad DPS.
02/16/2018 11:35 AMPosted by AConstelle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHB9NdHa4vg

Hoshi's take on possible reworks in her kit.

My take-aways:
1. She has no consistent way of supporting her team outside of her ultimates
2. Her turrets could use QoL
3. She may need more utility/supportive turrets that don't just damage enemies but help your team

More or less a lot of stuff that's been said here. Not a lot was said about Photon Barrier, but if you were going to add another consistent, active ability could sustain her team it'd likely replace Photon Barrier.

Finally, I also hope they balance Symmetra more or less around actual Symmetra player's experience and not for the average player. I really hope they don't go the Torvald path (from Paladins, he had a lock-on beam like Symmetra initially but then was reworked with a generic projectile weapon) just for people who think she's a bad DPS.


I still feel like the ideas for decaying shields are her best bet. Just something to help your team engage if orbs are only feeding healer ultimates
I think that it's worthy to note that it seems like they've balanced the support's ultimates around how powerful their base healing is. Like Moira and Ana have the best healing output so their ults are more offensive and less powerful than Zenyatta and Lucio's, who have less healing output. Mercy is pretty middle of the road if you ask me.

It seems like since Symmetra has literally no healing, her ultimate should be the most defensive and powerful, right? What else would you pick her for? I know that she's overall weak because of her reliance on her ultimate, but I think if they were able to work more of her utility into her actual kit and then balance her ultimate as an impactful, life-saving kind of ult it could work. Would this make up for her complete lack of healing? How would it function with her kit?

I think if they want to balance her as a support that doesnt heal this could potentially be the best way to do it.
Yeah, she needs to lose power from her ultimate and move it to her base kit, she is too ultimate reliant for how easy it is for her to lose her ultimate.
I just wanna clarify @Jsleezy (I would just reply but both of our posts are so big and I'm too lazy to edit them to slim it down for my points)

I don't want to increase her combat potential, and I don't want to keep her playing away from her team. I want her kit as a support hero to do it's job. I just don't think she needs any new abilities to accomplish that.

Her ultimate is ingrained in her kit now, and I honestly doubt they're going to change that. is that for better or worse? idk, but they already made the graphic and recorded countless voicelines for the Shield Generator. SG is just a part of Sym's kit now.

But like I said, her kit's concept is fine, but it's execution is flawed.

Symmetra is in this really weird balance loop that cannot be broken without ruining the identity of her kit. let me explain:
---------------------
Bonus Shields (NOT decaying shields) are permanent. and that's what Sym's core is based around, she is "the support hero who supports her team not by healing but by increasing her teammates maximum HP".

Bonus Shields need to be earned to strike a fair balance, otherwise they become braindead and situationally useless/overpowered.

her ultimate cannot be toned down otherwise it becomes too irrelevant. but if they give her an active support ability in a design similar to healing or something like speedboost/damageboost she would instantly become overpowered BECAUSE of her ultimate.

As long as Symmetra is designed around bonus shields, she's going to be impossible to balance in a similar way to other supports. frankly, she NEEDS to be less powerful than other supports outside of her ultimate otherwise her ultimate will be overpowered.
And they can't exactly make bonus shields like torbjorns armor, because that applies a damage reduction, and fades away after single use. Bonus shields are healable and regenerate on their own, it can't be applied without being permanent otherwise it's literally just a limited and worse form of healing.

Bonus Shields just won't work unless they're her ultimate, or take a really long time to charge LIKE an ultimate.

An active support ability will do one of three things for certain:

1.It will make her feel and act FAR less impactful than other supports due to the balance compensation required to give her that
2.Change her hero identity completely, ruining the point of Symmetra
3.It will make her overpowered due to her sudden mass synergy with other healers

An active support ability just takes too much change to have without killing Symmetra's kit as it is.
--------------------
So what I'm saying is that her kit NEEDS to be worse compared to other supports. that doesn't mean it needs to be as bad as it is right now though.
When we throw the teleporter into the mix, things become even more complicated.

Now symmetra is worse than the other supports and doesn't "become" better when she uses her ultimate like she does with the Shield Gen.

Symmetra's normal kit can't become too powerful otherwise shield generator will be overpowered. but she needs to be more powerful for when she uses TP.

An active support ability technically would fix that problem, but it would require so much change her identity so much that frankly... I just wouldn't want to play her anymore... and I know a lot of people would be in the same boat as me there.

So in conclusion:
Symmetra either requires a character destroying change, or she needs to be tuned until we reach a good balance.

She doesn't need to be "better at fighting" necessarily, she just needs to have better flexibility in her already present utility.

The best path to take would not be simple number changes, or an active support ability, but instead to add on more utility to her existing abilities.
I understand what you're saying, but I don't think any of her kit needs readjustments for temporary shields, especially if they don't give surplus health. But that's just me. There's lots of suggestions on here and there will always be people that disagree with them and thats ok. Personally, I feel like for me, the most frustrating thing is I can't help my team push forward to set up my nest closer to point. Sym needs so much momentum but struggles to support her team advance.

Channeled temporary shields do that. Channel some shields into missing health that disappear once you're done channeling them. That way you can block damage when your tanks are taking damage, but then go right back to her standard playstyle and melt everything once they advance past that choke that is holding Sym back.
02/15/2018 06:27 PMPosted by DragonSlayer
Symmetra is trash, and I'll show you pickrates to prove it. Let's look at her stats from the past week.

Oh, and we all know about her winrate, hm? Let's ignore that because it's massively inflated.

Bronze

Mercy - 28.17%
Moira - 26.91%
Lucio - 16.81%
Zenyatta - 13.29%
Ana - 9.96%
Symmetra - 4.87%

Silver
Moira - 29.11%
Mercy - 26.44%
Lucio -14.69%
Zenyatta - 14.11%
Ana - 12.12%
Symmetra - 3.53%

Gold
Moira - 30.41%
Mercy - 23.86%
Zenyatta - 15.41%
Ana - 14.95%
Lucio - 12.83%
Symmetra - 2.53%

Platinum
Moira - 32.04%
Mercy - 20.40%
Ana - 17.28%
Zenyatta - 17.01%
Lucio - 11.42%
Symmetra - 1.85%

Diamond
Moira - 31.53%
Zenyatta - 19.85%
Mercy - 18.27%
Ana - 17.13%
Lucio - 11.43%
Symmetra - 1.80%

Masters
Moira - 33.68%
Zenyatta - 22.49%
Mercy - 14.36%
Ana - 14.06%
Lucio - 13.89%
Symmetra - 1.52%

Grandmasters
Moira - 33.69%
Zenyatta - 24.52%
Lucio - 20.94%
Mercy - 9.80%
Ana - 9.38%
Symmetra - 1.67%

Never does Sym's pick rate go above 5%. Ever. Not even in Bronze.

I love playing Sym, but she's just so useless in any comp. Ugh.
This is what I'm talking about when I say the devs attempting to "slightly" increase sym's pickrate probably means more than people think

Symmetra's GAMEWIDE pickrate will always be small. but that includes offense/defense/tank heroes as well. Within the pickrate of support heroes, Sym could stand to increase by about 4-5%

and using those grandmaster stats, let's assume we just take 1% out of each of their pickrates to give to a newly buffed sym

Moira - 32.69%
Zenyatta - 23.52%
Lucio - 19.94%
Mercy - 8.80%
Ana - 8.38%
Symmetra - 6.67%

Suddenly things look much more balanced in the support category, but Sym is still situational as the devs describe her. I doubt they want to make an increase any smaller than that

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