"Why are all these women whining in my forums?"

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If you wrote better I might read what you had to say.

Brevity is a virtue. I'm sure the gist of your point is valid, but really? A full essay? Save it for fetlife.
Thank you for this post!

I understand that people don't want to read 500th post on this topic but as long as people don't get their !@#$ together and stop harassing women in Overwatch and as long as the rest of the players do not stand up to them, there will have to be #501.

Just silencing those who experience it, doesn't make it go away. It's just the lazy way out for those who'd rather sweep something under the rug instead of dealing with it.

And it's so easily dealt with! Sexism, like racism, needs a culture of permission to thrive.
Meaning: Silence is seen as support.

How do we kill sexism and racism in our culture?
"Dude, shut up, you are being ridiculous."
"Leave her alone and just play the damn game."
"Hey bro, your virginity is showing."

Have your pick. From annoyed to almost funny. Have your pick.
Just make clear, that this culture of silent permission and acceptance of sexism is over.

It won't change the world overnight. But honestly, it's already gotten so much better! No comparison to when I tried playing Counterstrike.

Am I still getting the postboy of the "Hello team." "OMG SUCK MY DICK!" conversation?
Yeah.
But hey, so far, I haven't gotten any %%%*@@@! threats yet in over a year of playing the game.
Ten years ago that was kinda a weekly occurance.
So...yay?

Keep changing the culture. It's still a chunk of work to tell idiots that they're being idiots, but sadly, since they don't listen to us women, it falls to the guys to shut them up.
12/07/2017 09:11 AMPosted by MHz
Good post my friend. I think female player get harassed more than hanzo main,that is more than anyone deserve


I think hanzo mains still have the first place in harassed department. Am i missing something? The reason i love using voice in this game is because people are more friendly then usual in game. There was once a guy who just yelled at us that we suck and we should kill ourselves at the end of the match. And i think that's it?

Once i joined a team and was asked if i was a child or a girl. I said that's so insensitive to tell somebody when they hadn't hit puberty yet. And we had a laugh and continued to play. Besides that, i only experienced good things.

I make sure the atmosphere on the voice is casual, make some jokes, which makes people talk more and relax and many start using the mic even they didn't plan to. It's important to comunicate in this game.

If i mess up something i say guys sorry i messed up, i'm trying my best. If i think we need someone to switch i ask nicely if that would be a problem or who is most comfortable with the hero and if somebody is willing to. If not, it's ok.

I only experienced improvement in team coordination and talking. But i can't say that's because of my gender, but rather because i'm simply being a decent human.

Never i have experienced any form of abuse in ow, people are really nice here. Gender was never mentioned. Maybe i just haven't had the "pleasure" meeting the bad ones. But what makes me angry is generalising. All females are oppressed in this male world of games. Ow comp is toxic.

Ti be honest, it will be toxic if you make it toxic. Just sayin. Nobody is throwing insults at strangers unprovoked. Even on the internet.
Im with you on this and from the bottom of my heart i'll say sorry )in the place of all those people) for whatever you might be going through ingame but honestly , just mute them. As soon as you feel its about to go down, mute them. Dont let it ruin your day or your game experience.
Being a female is just 1 more way of hurting you, im a man and i'll get flamed/blamed even when im outperforming everyone in the game, it happens, people like to blame but not be blamed. Best thing you can do is mute them and ignore them, worse case scenario is that you lose and hopefully never get them in your team again. Giving attention to a tilted/toxic person is what makes it worse.
A tilted person will say mean stuff that 99% of the time he doesnt mean so it's best to let him talk alone cause he needs to let his steam out and a toxic person is a toxic person, he prioritizes putting himself above everyone on his team or game and starts talking bad to you and your team just for being in the same team with him. Both of them need to be muted tho , with the only difference that sometimes you can work with a tilted person and try to get him back on track, don't try too long tho if he seems lost in his thoughts.

Personally it only happened to me a few times and i immediately sided with the woman (as long as they are not toxic or negative) cause women have the same rights to play the game as men do and shouldn't be called upon for being girls, i've seen some really good female gamers that would outperform a lot of those badmouth talkers.

PS: Take this to heart if you want to improve on the game, you are the only judge of how you perform, as long as you are honest with yourself you'll get better and unfortunately for most of people this is how competitive games work, being good automatically shuts the mouths of mean/bad/toxic people.
12/07/2017 08:47 PMPosted by Banicks
12/07/2017 08:18 PMPosted by FirebyrdXX
More males experience harassment per capita? Because in fps communities where the gender ratio is anywhere from 3:1 to 20:1 male-to-female, just saying more males experience vocal harassment doesn't mean it's proportionate.


So does that mean in the spirit of representation, like women in STEM research, we need more women to play video games and be abused in the sake of equality?

Guaranteed that men receive more abuse. Yet the focus of any anti-trolling campaign here will only gain ground under the flag of feminism and woe is they for being sexisted.

*facepalm*


I'm not sure where you inferred that. But statistically speaking, you can clearly identify biases if the difference is treatment between two groups if when you change the variable (in this case, gender) the difference is significantly correlated (p<.01, .05, .001). Off the top of my head, we know there is racial discrimination when it comes to drug possession when black and whites smoke [removed] at the same rates, yet blacks are at least 8 times more likely to get convicted (to my recollection).

Hypothetically if a student or job applicant got accepted over a better student or job applicant despite worse credentials for the sake of diversity, I'm not for that. I believe in meritocracy. But subconscious biases are quantifiable in systems and they should be taken into consideration when addressing issues.

Edited for language - Forum Moderator
In reading some of the posts on here, pretty much many can see some of the problems.... many just have a lack of respect for females... and some for people, over all.

Not everyone gets treated like [removed].. so why would you say that equal treatment means getting treated like that?

Here is a very simple example -

6 people in the group... 1 person is being harassed and catcalled and that is the female. Person is not harassed for character ingame, just being catcalled and messed with for being female.

Does that equate to what someone said in this thread via "equal treatment"?

Some people... smh

Edited for language - Forum Moderator
I stopped reading once I reached the part with "feminism". I have a very negative attitude towards this bs because its third wave has led to numerous issues in modern western societies. Promoting it in this game will destroy it quicker than any amounts of toxicity.
It's funny how the basis of this entire thread is summed up with:

"Be Nice to each other."

And there are still people that just give a variation of:

"No."
Thank you for writing a well thought out post.

I have yet to experience sexism in this game. I don't even have to get on voice to be pegged as a girl (the name does enough.)

I know not everyone's experience is the same. I know this makes me sound like a redcap... but...

Maybe there is something you girls are doing to call undue attention to your gender? Never has my gender been a reason for a loss. Yeah, little teenagers say stupid !@#$. They are teenagers. It's not sexism if a nasty comment comes from a 15 year olds lips, it's just immaturity. Sadly, the only thing you can do with immaturity is counter it with other immaturity. Tell them what their mum is like. Usually does the trick for me.

Edit: I've seen toxicity based on race, age, and even State/Province. I don't see why gender would be any different.
@OP
First off thx for beeing a Pragmatic Feminist it realy means a lot.
Becous most things i read relating to this are basicly
"Don't be toxic to people becous of there gender and all men are evil bastards "
So i can understand the people who just down vote with out reading becous this Is usualy what we get and it realy shuts down any posibilty of a reasonable discution.

I think like you say people speaking up if they see bad things happening (or atleast reporting it) is a good way to go.
Blizzard realy can't solve this its somthing that people need to come to getter on.

Also saying just mute them / find nice people to play with isn't ignoring the problem people like me who say it just want to give practical advice things that You can do yourself to improve your expirience.
My game expirience is been so mutch better by joining a team/cummunity just want to share that option with others.

Things like sexisme goes beyond overwatch or blizzard to realy solve.
But to make it as good as can be evryone can do there part
So in the end Blizzard needs to do what they can do to make it better.
The communty needs to do its part and stand up for each other.
And as a person you also have options and ways to handle the problem.

12/08/2017 08:22 AMPosted by Moxsapphire
It's funny how the basis of this entire thread is summed up with:

"Be Nice to each other."

And there are still people that just give a variation of:

"No."


Like i said above people don't get beyond the word sexisme or feminist its been poisoned with hatefull retoric said by people claiming to be good and moral.
and it shuts down the conversation even if the person says "Be Nice to each other."


In my own opinion if you want to tackle a problem i would try removing the label feminisme or sexisme from it (somehow) becous a lot of people don't read and just look at labels.

I know not everyone's experience is the same. I know this makes me sound like a redcap... but...

Maybe there is something you girls are doing to call it on yourselves?


Its hard to say with out sounding bad and its realy not ment that way.
Its like bullies subcontiously looking for certain ques in body language or verbal ques
when looking for a target.
Its realy not to put any blame on the victim it just somthing that can help to solved the problem,
And also to say your lived expirience might not be typical for all woman playing overwatch.
Becous i haven't seen it happen honestly but thats just what i have seen i don't doubt that what you say is true.
12/08/2017 12:47 AMPosted by GrooWasRight
If you wrote better I might read what you had to say.

Brevity is a virtue. I'm sure the gist of your point is valid, but really? A full essay? Save it for fetlife.
Why did you take the time to comment and insult me if you couldn't take the time to even read the bold-highlighted main point of my "full essay", or any of the comments on it to get an idea of what I was talking about?

12/08/2017 08:05 AMPosted by Visor
I stopped reading once I reached the part with "feminism". I have a very negative attitude towards this bs because its third wave has led to numerous issues in modern western societies. Promoting it in this game will destroy it quicker than any amounts of toxicity.
I'm very sorry on behalf of the unreasonable feminists you've encountered. I actually disagree with most of third-wave feminism, as I feel that it boils down to borderline "revenge sexism" towards men and demands for special treatment, which is actually very regressive. When I say "pragmatic feminism", what I mean is the literal philosophy that women should be treated the same as men and shouldn't be shamed simply for existing in a male-dominated community. It's the kind of feminism that demands that women have a right to vote, not that demands that women get an advantage in their career fields or can never be spoken to by males.

However, the experiences I'm having and seeing reports of in this game (catcalling, demanding sex talk, telling to get back in the kitchen, reporting for not playing support because that's what girls are "supposed" to play, etc) are not up to par with any sort of egalitarianism or even "first-wave" feminism.
Why did you take the time to comment and insult me if you couldn't take the time to even read the bold-highlighted main point of my "full essay", or any of the comments on it to get an idea of what I was talking about?


Because you need the criticism. You would reach a much wider audience with something less histrionic and more concise.

Or you could cry and make this all about YOU instead of about the people who you originally sought to champion.
Hahaha REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Real stuff though. I've played with gamer grills quite a lot in competitve. Played in Silver, Gold, Plat, and Diamond. And I've noticed the trend that people in Gold-tier and below, which are also where most of the same people that are like "YOU GUYS SUCK IM THROWING" reside, tend to be a lot more sexist, and I've witnessed it as a problem and reported it as a problem. Now I'm not talking about your usual banter or sarcasm. I'm talking about situations where a girl makes a team suggestion and a guy says "You're a girl I'm not listening to you"(yeah that legitimately happened once).10/10 teamwork. Of course that's the best case scenario in "sexism". The worst case ive seen is guys actually fighting and throwing a rage in voice chat about the reasons why you, as a girl, are garbage. Or making statements pertaining to your sex. It doesn't just ruin the experience the girl. It ruins the experience for everyone else in the team because one dude has to make a big freaking deal about it instead of playing the game. Muting silences the problem. But it doesn't get rid of the player.

In Plat tier, girls are more accepted but you'll hear some banter about the player being a girl.

And in Diamond I've seen the issue to be non-existent, so far. Played with many girls and usually people work as a team in the tier.

Point is, just because it doesn't exist where you're at doesn't mean it doesn't exist at all. Maybe player ranks have a correlation to how crappy you are as a person too. But don't be so quick to immediately dismiss the issue simply because new-wave extreme feminism like what hitched a ride on GamerGate has ruined the views of traditional feminism and it's prevalent issue in the player base. Banter is alright. But attacking players directly for who they are is not okay, and is on the same level of racism. If you're gonna attack a player, attack them for their skill.

Inb4 the ree bandwagon
I wouldn't even call that a "feminist" issue tbh.I have experienced some sexism in games (World of Warcraft), but not (yet) in Overwatch. Luckily.

But, it's something that exists and like any other form of harassment it should be taken seriously.

Video games are still a platform where lots of insecure immature people try to let out their frustration and often they just take it way too far. Others get hurt and even discriminated and that can't be tolerated.
It's because they know if they go on the internet and present themselves in a specific manner, they can illicit a specific response.

IMO for every male being disrespectful to a female online there are at least 3 White Knights willing to go to battle.

If you've ever personally interacted with a female who has a successful online blog targeted at a male audience, you come to understand that certain things come with certain territories, not saying this automatically excuses the offensive and outright gross behavior of males but, however, there's give an take with every situation.

Have you ever once seen a post from a female asking males to stop White Knighting them because it's sad and hilarious and big girls can defend themselves just fine? I haven't. But I don't go looking for them either.
12/07/2017 09:20 AMPosted by Ranger51
I'm sorry if it came across as political, it was purely meant to be a community-based discussion.

Don't apologize. Common decency has become a political issue. And any time you have a community -- a polity -- talking over what should and shouldn't be allowed -- a policy -- what you have is a political discussion. Political discussions aren't bad. People only complain that discussions are "too political" when they sense that their politics are losing the argument. Or when having to confront the existence of the problem being discussed makes them uncomfortable, because they'd rather pretend it didn't exist.

Common decency has become political, and I'm in favor of every single !@#$ "political" discussion in which people speak up to defend it. Because Lord knows there are enough self-absorbed man-children here who think that being asked to show common decency is some kind of pernicious dagger being plunged into their manly bits. Also Tumblr white knights SJWs blah blah stop being uppity.

If you think affording respect and dignity to other people takes something away from you, you need to ask yourself, seriously, how you got so broken.
It's really disturbing to see the number of responses asking women to take a look at themselves and see if they're doing something to somehow cause or deserve the behaviors they're receiving. Every single time I see it I'm reminded of the old scenario:

Girl walks down a dark alley at night in heels and a short skirt. Gets "assaulted". People claim she was "asking for it" by wearing heels and a short skirt at night in an alley.

The USA has ruled that regardless of what she was wearing, nobody is asking to be assaulted. So in theory, even if we were unwittingly inviting toxicity to rain down upon us - does that actually make it excusable? I don't think so. And I can't wrap my head around how these situations are truly different.
I usually stay away from competitive, The levels of toxic is pretty bad in there. I have had people trolling me in a match just because I was female. One dude was a sym main, who, because I was female, decided he would put all of his teleports so that you would fall off the map if you used them, while the 2nd guy would say "Nessy, [insertname] likes you, do you like him?". Over. And over. And over. and over. For the full duration of the match.
I mean, it's not nearly as bad as what other's have gone through, but it's still irritating and discouraging

I mean, yes you can mute the verbal abuse, but you can't exactly stop people trolling and throwing matches to lower your SR. It's kinda sad that women will end up with lower rankings simply because of people can't handle that there is someone on your team with two X chromosomes instead of an X and a Y.
Oh, is it already time for the daily sexism thread?

Grow a thicker skin, everyone gets harassed, no it's not "right" but that's the reality and until Blizzard fixes the report system, we have to deal with it, stop just talking about "your" issues and in stead talk about the harassment everyone has to deal with and how they can fix it.

Mute/block, report and move on.

No need to create a wall even mr Trump would be jealous of.

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