Junkrat....

General Discussion
Oh boy, here we go.

So, I sincerely feel this needs to be addressed.

I try really hard to be unbiased and see the game as a whole. And I know when people read this, they're instantly going to say "LOL Tracer main complaining about Junkrat." But that's not really the issue.

I've not played Tracer much all night. I've played Soldier, McCree, Zarya, Moira, Mercy ... a very wide-range of characters. And it doesn't matter. Honestly, in most of the games, Junkrat is the deciding factor on who is going to win.

So this is not "lolTraceMain" bias. This is legitimate observation from a general standpoint. Junkrat has far too much impact.

I don't know exactly "what" is so insane about this character (aside from his ulti charge), but he is literally the reason for a vast majority of my games being one-sided. Pre-Plat QP has become a battle of "Who has the better Junkrat?" And that just seems like terrible game design.

I know the game is balanced more around the pro scene, and everyone's going to say "Just go Pharah!" But the problem is not everyone can play Pharah or Widow or w/e. And even then he's a huge problem.

Bottom line is this hero really does have more effect per effort ratio than any hero in the game. He has such a huge impact, and I don't know what needs to be done, I'm obviously not a balance designer or game dev. But there clearly is a problem, especially in pre-Plat.

Please take a look at this. =/

I really don't want to make people mad by calling for crazy nerfs. I'm trying very hard to stay level-headed here (which is why I admitted I don't know "what" to do). But I can't help but notice a very defining factor in almost every single game I'm playing. >.<

I would appreciate a civil discussion on what the actual problem is, and sensible, un-biased ideas on what could be done to alleviate this issue rather than flame-wars from various mains.

Above all else, I want a balanced, fun game. And again, I hate to anger people by pointing out my observations. I try so, so hard to remain neutral and logical in my thinking. But this is just such an obvious problem, I really don't know what else to do but make a "qq thread" on it, in hopes of people maybe coming together and figuring out a solution that benefits everyone.

This is literally the first (technically) "Nerf" thread I've made. >.< And I never wanted to make it. I legit want heroes to fill a niche without being overpowered. But I can't ignore the impact this specific hero is having game after game (at least in this bracket). And I really think it warrants intelligent discussion aside from "LOL X Main !@#$." >.<

Sort of a TL;DR: I don't want to ruin Junkrat (in all honestly I think he's kind of hilarious and randomly fun, and good for the game), but I just think his impact is a bit too much in certain tiers of play.

I don't want anything crazy to be done to the hero, like nerfing his damage by 50% or adding self-damage back, etc. I will 100% stand up against said nerfs should they be suggested (as I have before in other threads). I swear, I am not wanting a "free kill." I am wholeheartedly just wanting a balanced game for all tiers of play.

So ... thoughts? Suggestions? =/ I know it's hard to be unbiased, but please try. (@ both sides).
His grenades and mines are slow projectiles with a radius much smaller than your blink, which you have 3 of them, on a 3 second cooldown, compared to 2 mines every 16 seconds. Not mentioning your recall aka free get out of jail card.

What you're asking, is a free kill. What you're asking is for you to be able to 1 v 1 him in melee distance. What you're asking is unfair.
Said it before and I'll say it again; only thing they should or need to touch right now is Junkrat's ultimate charge. I think that's the only thing they'd need to change to make him balanced, but even if I was wrong, the last thing the developers need to do is dump multiple nerfs/changes on him at one time.
His grenades and mines are slow projectiles with a radius much smaller than your blink, which you have 3 of them, on a 3 second cooldown, compared to 2 mines every 16 seconds. Not mentioning your blink.

What you're asking, is a free kill. What you're asking is for you to be able to 1 v 1 him in melee distance. What you're asking is unfair.

Again, I have not played Tracer much all night. I would very much appreciate "main bias" not being a part of this discussion. Because yes, I can kill Junkrats as Tracer. Yes, sometimes they can kill me. That's not the point I was trying to make.

My point was he has a huge impact on the game as a whole. This is not about 1v1s. (And as I said, I played a wide range of characters tonight. The games were still determined by which team had the better Junkrat.)
11/21/2017 10:10 PMPosted by Result
Said it before and I'll say it again; only thing they should or need to touch right now is Junkrat's ultimate charge.

I've said this same thing before, too. But he really is such a huge problem in below-average tiers, I just don't know anymore. >.<
11/21/2017 10:11 PMPosted by Crepsly
His grenades and mines are slow projectiles with a radius much smaller than your blink, which you have 3 of them, on a 3 second cooldown, compared to 2 mines every 16 seconds. Not mentioning your blink.

What you're asking, is a free kill. What you're asking is for you to be able to 1 v 1 him in melee distance. What you're asking is unfair.

Again, I have not played Tracer much all night. I would very much appreciate "main bias" not being a part of this discussion. Because yes, I can kill Junkrats as Tracer. Yes, sometimes they can kill me. That's not the point I was trying to make.

My point was he has a huge impact on the game as a whole. This is not about 1v1s. (And as I said, I played a wide range of characters tonight. The games were still determined by which team had the better Junkrat.)


Your "point" is false based on all available data, on every stats site dealing with overwatch. Anecdotal evidence is not a point.
Do you think Junkrat has the same or more impact than a tracer or genji in a game ?
If you ask me the buff was good but it moved junkrat from pure defence to viable on both defence and attack. Is that good or bad is personal opinion.

To add to the point of which team has better junkrat.. is it more like which team countered the junkrat best?
I don't have a problem with Junkrat other than it feels like it takes very little effort to do tons of damage, also maybe ult charge
11/21/2017 10:11 PMPosted by Crepsly
I've said this same thing before, too. But he really is such a huge problem in below-average tiers, I just don't know anymore. >.<

He's really not, though. Your entire post is anecdotal, so I'm going to give you my anecdote: he's been no more of an issue than any other well-balanced DPS character in the game, and I honestly can't say that he's been a "deciding factor" in the majority of the games I've played recently.
11/21/2017 10:16 PMPosted by Krisher
Do you think Junkrat has the same or more impact than a tracer or genji in a game ?
If you ask me the buff was good but it moved junkrat from pure defence to viable on both defence and attack. Is that good or bad is personal opinion.

To add to the point of which team has better junkrat.. is it more like which team countered the junkrat best?

Actually, yes. Junkrat does have more impact than the typical Genji/Tracer in low-mid tier games. Which was my point.

I never said the buff wasn't a good idea. I never said we should revert the buff. I just think the current level of control this one character has over a game is a bit much.
11/21/2017 10:03 PMPosted by Crepsly
Junkrat is the deciding factor on who is going to win.


Lie! (Mercy decides btw, not Junk)

11/21/2017 10:03 PMPosted by Crepsly
everyone's going to say "Just go Pharah!" But the problem is not everyone can play Pharah or Widow or w/e. And even then he's a huge problem.


Go Pharah. Winston. Zarya. Widow. Hanzo. Ana. Genji. McCree. Mei. Orisa. Soldier. Sombra. Don't have to be good at just Pharah. This might not work for one tricks, but I'm sure at least 1 or 2 of those characters someone could switch to.

Honestly, I don't know how long you've played. No judgement either way. I've been a Junk main since beta. Love the guy. Always have. Always will. The most fun playstyle (imo) in the game.

Before the most recent buff that's got so many people butt hurt, he was trash. F tier. Worst ult ever and couldn't do anything but spam rat.

First "major" buff was the tire. Awesome. 50 health went to 100. Maybe it won't get one shot anymore...oh wait, nope, that can still happen cause it's slower then a slug.

Spamrat was fixed a little bit. Self damage gone. Nice! Now maybe I don't just have to stand at the back all the time. Maybe I can live after using my ult if they find me before the tire leaves the room I'm hiding in. Or just that sweet sweet revenge for getting me in the first place.

And then we came to our big buff. Faster rip tire, 2nd mine. Let's argue this for a moment.

2nd mine is what brought him out of F-tier. Seriously here. You could revert the ult and he'd still be picked. Why? Because now he can offer up consistency and reliability and have the way to get out. Mine+nade combo was always a thing, but we died soon after because had no way out. It's like a hacked Tracer...kinda useless without time skips.

The tire. Also very nice. Yah, was broken at first with the flying tire, but that was quickly fixed. Seeing as it could barely travel over a doggy door before, it was nice that they included infinite wall climb. Now it can still get to a destination. People now say "but it moves too fast, I can't hit it." Tracer moves fast. Sombra and Moira blink out really quickly. D.Va flies pretty fast. And Mercy can fly fast too hopping to others. Genji is perhaps the fastest character out there just from his base mobility and with dash.

And these are all things they can do OUTSIDE of an ult. It's also loud, clunky, only has 100 health, leaves a smoke trail, and requires it to be pretty close to get the max amount of damage pumped from it.

For the wrap up of it all, he does need a nerf that most Junkrat mains (myself included) and many other people have suggested and agreed upon and that's the ult charge. He does gain it really fast. It needs some tweaking for sure. But, people complain about it after they feed it. He gets ult charge relatively slow if he doesn't make any hits. Hitting shields doesn't gain him ult charge either.

All other nerfs would throw him right back into F-tier. And I know there's a few that want that...I could name them for sure because they will always be anti-Junk no matter what.
11/21/2017 10:11 PMPosted by Crepsly
But he really is such a huge problem in below-average tiers, I just don't know anymore.


You can't fix this. Junkrat was a force in bronze and silver before the buff. Not because of what he can do. But because of the awareness. Yah, I'm just gold (granted I don't play comp, just placements) but it's mostly awareness. And that's just something a lot of people at lower ranks don't have. They blindly run into those chokes. The trickle in. They don't look at the ground. They don't strafe. I've seen it many times and I'll always see it. I'm surprised that after almost 2 years people are still exiting the spawn straight into a trap and mine for the first kill of the match. 0 awareness.
If Junkrat is truly OP, then why isn't his pickrate higher in Platinum and above?

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Tfm8CBbcLvM/WgJymcmnjRI/AAAAAAAABS4/S7dU8eubEo4hrmJgZtzxW4G74Ixqo2rZACLcBGAs/s1600/PC_Usage_Overall.png
11/21/2017 10:23 PMPosted by DrgHybrid
All other nerfs would throw him right back into F-tier. And I know there's a few that want that

That is actually the problem. I really don't want this hero destroyed. I'm glad he's viable. (And btw, thanks for your in-depth post).

That's why this is tricky. I really have no idea what a solution might be. Is he just be to left alone like Symmetra, and let the low ranks suffer because he eventually levels-out in the mid ranks?

Because you can't deny he's massively effective in low-mid ranks. Take a Junkrat vs. a Reaper. Who's really going to pull more weight / have the most impact in a game, regardless of map?

It's just a huge area for debate, tbh. A slight nerf could ruin him, but to be left as he is, anything pre-Plat is just destroyed by him. I really wish Blizz wouldn't get themselves into these situations. >.<
11/21/2017 10:29 PMPosted by Crepsly
Because you can't deny he's massively effective in low-mid ranks. Take a Junkrat vs. a Reaper. Who's really going to pull more weight / have the most impact in a game, regardless of map?


This can even be debatable here. Reaper isn't prime pickings right now, but he is strong. Problems with a lot of Reaper's is they think they can go in face first and 1 v 1 the crowd. I don't play him much, but when I do I sneak behind. Two headshots to the back of Junkrat's skull and he's down for the count. Wraith so you don't die to Mayhem when Junk falls and gg.

11/21/2017 10:29 PMPosted by Crepsly
Is he just be to left alone like Symmetra, and let the low ranks suffer because he eventually levels-out in the mid ranks?


Hate to put it like this, but the lower ranks it could be used as incentive to build themselves out of it. How bad does someone want to climb? I mean, if you could pick up Pharah and dig yourself from Bronze to Gold/Plat and then swap to something you might like better, you just countered and now avoided the problem.

He's already getting pretty niche as you go up. He has a low pick rate from Diamond - GM with a high win rate.

This is a comparison to 3 others that also share that same situation...Orisa, Sym, and Torb.

Fuey500 for Torb
Grumblehog for Symmetra
Pathetic for Orisa

I use these 3 as examples because they are Top 500 (or were depending on when) but they will always be awesome with those characters. But, since they are niche, the stats are unbalanced because very few others play them.
11/21/2017 10:29 PMPosted by Crepsly

It's just a huge area for debate, tbh. A slight nerf could ruin him, but to be left as he is, anything pre-Plat is just destroyed by him.

That's the trick though. Junkrat was a must-pick in low tiers even back when he was F-tier everywhere else.

Junkrat will always be strong in low ranks.

So there's no real point in nerfing him in low tiers, and making him unusable in higher tiers.
And to add, when it comes to building, just like Chro says...characters take time. They expect to pick up a counter and after a few hours have mastered that character and can counter rat. That's not how it works. I still mess up on Junkrat and I have over 200 hours into him. I remember about 8 months ago I got the double jump down flawlessly. Before that, I would throw at a weird angle, or not detonate it soon enough, or basic things like that.

Would just play in the practice range for hours boosting myself about. Seeing what angles I could pull off. See what my limits where and how much control I had of myself in the air. All of them take time if you truly want to master a character. Just like it takes time to play against them too.

Want to know how I know what spots to fire at for hitting people hiding? Spent hours in my own custom games looking. Where can I stand to get this one shot. I had to listen for the explosion. Judge how many bounces it was. Get the angle of attack down to a near 100% accuracy. Where are the hiding spots? What can I do to be in them or attack who might be hiding in them?

I've already spent 3 hours on Blizzard World and that place is crazy on looking for these. Yah, I have some pretty nifty spots I plan on using to my advantage, but that map has crazy amounts of places to strafe into and dodge. It's similar to Junkertown that I really don't play Junkrat much on because of the open spaces thing.
Guess what i play junkrat with fear what fear?, I don't use my mines much just because I'm afraid of the people there to come here and post a nerf thread like you. I kill them with my grenades and one mine. Let us play as we want. 90% of times when i 1v1 another junkrat i win because i have some skill to show not just because junkrat is OP. Stop these nerf threads. Every time i kill someone as junkrat my brother tells me that he will definitely post a nerf threat in forum go easy on them.
I’m personally not a fan of Junkrat and don’t think he’s op. That said I still feel like he’s very impactful for how easy he is to play and getting killed by him often feels cheap. The only change id make with him is to stop allowing him to ult from the spawn. That can be a game changer on 2cp maps like Anubis and volskya. One of the counters or weaknesses of his ult is that he’s vulnerable when using it, when doing it from the spawn he’s not.
11/21/2017 10:55 PMPosted by Novah
The only change id make with him is to stop allowing him to ult from the spawn.


The only way to keep this fair would do the same to everyone. Which would just lead to the Genji problem that we have right now with the instant loss as soon as you hit Q.

No more:
-Launching mech from the stairs.
-Edit: Or running back into spawn after launch to call mech.
-Shooting dragons through the walls.
-Casting a rez at the door.
-Shooting a bio-nade from the spawn.
-Activating Widow's see all.
-Placing Orisa's ult on the other side of the doors
-Starting Doomfist.
-Starting Bastion.
-Starting Genji. (can't stun or slow down these 3 if they do it from the safety side)
-Throw Mei's ult out.

So yah, I'm actually ok with this "nerf" if it applies to everyone. I only have occasionally done it anyways and that's when the point is about to end and we've probably lost anyways.
Its easy to dodge his huge, glowing red beachballs that he lobs across the map. I mean for gods sake they click, tick, buzz and ding too, they're easily visible and loud as hell. How can you NOT avoid them?

EDITED FOR STUPIDITY. :\

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