S8 Changes - Why just Diamond and above?!?!

Competitive Discussion
So now, unless you're in Diamond, you are still dealing with the same jacked up system. So, they only changed the system for about 20% of OW players.

TL;DR: These changes do nothing for plat heroes or those who belong in a higher rank. It only creates an atmosphere for people to only choose the hero on which they perform best. In doing so, they will actually ensure they increase their rank. Their SR will move up slowly but it will rise over time and this system just perpetuates "omg look I got the most medals" and toxicity.


This is BS. My main problem with comp is the unintentional forced loss rate. You do well for back to back matches, get a new season high, and then you seem to be put on teams with AWFUL players.

This is implicitly due to the personal performance comparison in my opinion. If you are doing well over 3-5 matches, you will start to be considered the "carry" of the group. In order to make the match closest to the 50% on each side, they rate you as higher talent then your entire other team. If you are a support main like me, this sucks! Even as a tank main, this sucks! The only time this benefits you as if you are a really good attack or defense hero. The most effective carries are attack heroes, period.

This is just sad and pathetic. I can group up with someone 1700 SR because I am high plat. The range is far too high and this makes me not want to play Flex heroes at all!

Just to prove that personal performance is system is a joke -

I was playing Moira and was pretty good at her. I got multiple POTGs and would always end up with gold heals no matter the other healer. I also received gold elims, obj kills and obj time (3+ medals) over multiple games. I wrote down every single game over the course of 2 days that I played.

I have played a ton of Mercy. Pre-buff, during buff, post nerf and then after the last change, I now refuse to play her. I would usually gain 15-20 SR for wins and lose 25+ for most losses. WTF. Regardless, I would usually win more games so I climbed.

Now comes Moira - new hero, new stats but still based on personal performance. Over 20 games, I never lost more than 20SR for any game except one. Numerous times, on wins, I gained 25+ SR easily. I did have multiple medals during most of those games. My SR is slowly but surely rising. Why does this not happen when I play Mercy? Hmm...maybe her SR gains/losses are f'ed up. Knowing that I am always going to gain 25+ SR and lose less, why would I not always pick Moira and become a one-trick? The only time I pick an attack hero is if the other players on my team suck and I have to.

After the 20 games, I had an exact 50% win rate and I played Moira 90+% of the time. Although, with my game play being very consistent and mostly playing Moira, I still ended the 20 games 40SR higher than I had started even though I had won 10 games and lost 10 games. According to this example, this proves that I belong at a higher rank. It may not prove that I belong at Diamond but it def proves I don't belong in 2700. Moreover, when I reached 2800 SR, I was still gaining roughly the same amount of SR and losing the same amount of SR but after breaking my season high, I went on a 7 game loss streak...like seriously??

This is why you cannot break out of a rank easily - especially as a support hero. I for one will continue to play Moira and insta-locking her because at the end of the day, personal performance is what really matters in the long run. Blizzard picks the winners and losers of a match pretty much so if you continue to play the same hero you are best at, over the course of many games, you will rise in rank.
See

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20759379305

and

03/02/2017 07:35 PMPosted by Scott Mercer
We're always trying to put you in fair matches that we think you have a 50% chance to win, and do it quickly so you're playing Overwatch instead of staring at a queue timer. We never intentionally seek to put you in an unfair one.

I've seen comments like "I just won three games in a row, so the matchmaker put me in a bad stomp to get back to a 50% win rate". It doesn't do anything like that at all. It just keeps on trying to find fair matches. If you do win more than you lose, your SR will slowly go up. As that happens it'll also put you up stronger opponents that match your new SR. That's not so you lose, it's to keep your matches fair.

There's one other thing to remember, though. The results of a match that the matchmaker thought was perfectly fair don't always result in a match that is hard fought every meter of the payload and you win by just holding them off from reaching the final checkpoint at 0:00 time remaining. Matches with teams of equal skill result in 3-0 stomps more than you think. Maybe an early fight snowballed out of control due to staggered spawns, maybe a player decided he was going to try to pickup a new hero that match, or perhaps your's cat decided to play with your keyboard right before you used that Graviton Surge and it wildly missed its mark. We're all human, and we don't perform at the perfectly same level all the time. It's one of the reasons competitive games are so much fun to play and watch.
12/09/2017 05:58 PMPosted by Kaawumba
See

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20759379305

and

03/02/2017 07:35 PMPosted by Scott Mercer
We're always trying to put you in fair matches that we think you have a 50% chance to win, and do it quickly so you're playing Overwatch instead of staring at a queue timer. We never intentionally seek to put you in an unfair one.

I've seen comments like "I just won three games in a row, so the matchmaker put me in a bad stomp to get back to a 50% win rate". It doesn't do anything like that at all. It just keeps on trying to find fair matches. If you do win more than you lose, your SR will slowly go up. As that happens it'll also put you up stronger opponents that match your new SR. That's not so you lose, it's to keep your matches fair.

There's one other thing to remember, though. The results of a match that the matchmaker thought was perfectly fair don't always result in a match that is hard fought every meter of the payload and you win by just holding them off from reaching the final checkpoint at 0:00 time remaining. Matches with teams of equal skill result in 3-0 stomps more than you think. Maybe an early fight snowballed out of control due to staggered spawns, maybe a player decided he was going to try to pickup a new hero that match, or perhaps your's cat decided to play with your keyboard right before you used that Graviton Surge and it wildly missed its mark. We're all human, and we don't perform at the perfectly same level all the time. It's one of the reasons competitive games are so much fun to play and watch.


That still doesn't explain why there are no close games anymore, it's always a blowout 50/50
Mercy had SR gain problems, because the res stats were compared for a while with her op state before. Also, bad Mercy SR gain is usually to a lack of damage boosting.

It's easier to climb with a performance based system than with win/loss btw.
12/09/2017 06:03 PMPosted by Shelyo
Mercy had SR gain problems, because the res stats were compared for a while with her op state before. Also, bad Mercy SR gain is usually to a lack of damage boosting.

It's easier to climb with a performance based system than with win/loss btw.


Not true considering how many OTPs are in this game and the system they perpetuate.
12/09/2017 06:10 PMPosted by WIDOWORSYM
12/09/2017 06:03 PMPosted by Shelyo
Mercy had SR gain problems, because the res stats were compared for a while with her op state before. Also, bad Mercy SR gain is usually to a lack of damage boosting.

It's easier to climb with a performance based system than with win/loss btw.


Not true considering how many OTPs are in this game and the system they perpetuate.

OTPs usually have a winrate of 50% and more. So you're most of the times not in such a bad spot if you play with them (it's just unfun). I also don't think that they're such a huge problem from Bronze to Plat (I saw only one there and I spent quite some hours in plat). Stop the witchhunting. OTPs are a way bigger problem on Grandmaster+ where every player is skilled and meta matters. Up there, an optimal and a suboptimal hero choice can make the difference.

So yeah, "elo hell" would be way worse if you don't have a performance based SR system from Bronze to Plat. Especially in Bronze around 1000 where it's full of leavers (personal experience, maybe I am wrong about it).
12/09/2017 06:00 PMPosted by Gary
That still doesn't explain why there are no close games anymore, it's always a blowout 50/50


08/20/2017 08:36 AMPosted by Kaawumba
If the match-maker says most games are fair, then why are there so many stomps?

There are many reasons:

1) Overwatch, as a game, has a tendency to snowball. The winner of the first fight has an ultimate advantage that has a tendency to last the round. Losing teams tend to tilt and start playing poorly, which can continue in the same round and carry into the next round.

2) Random variables are random. Maybe a cat walked on a keyboard or someone fat fingered an ult (7). Maybe someone who has 99% up-time for their internet had their 1% failure that day. Maybe one team has all dps mains, and the other team is well balanced. MMR and predicted win percentage only has validity over many matches, not each individual match.

3) Not every player tries hard every match. Sometimes this is subtle, like playing with a beer or two too many. Sometimes it is less subtle, like practicing a hero a player is not good at, regardless of team comp or map.

4) Some players actively break the system, by either hard throwing, that is intentionally losing (as opposed to soft throwing as in item 3), playing on someone else's account to boost it, or other similar actions. These actions are bannable and should be reported when seen. Blizzard has promised to take stronger actions against this sort of thing (17). However, soft throwers and hard throwers can be difficult to distinguish, and Blizzard has to error on the side of caution to avoid banning the wrong people, so it will always be a problem. The in-game report UI gives guidelines on what behavior is or is not bannable.

5) New accounts in general have less data and will have a less accurate MMR. There is no required minimum number of games to play, so new accounts can stay “new” for a very long time.

6) MMR itself is only approximate. See the section on “How Accurate is SR”, below and realize that MMR generally will have the same issues as SR, with respect to accuracy, except it is harder to measure what is going on with MMR.


(7) https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20753625906#post-13
(17) https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20758356169
12/09/2017 06:00 PMPosted by Gary

That still doesn't explain why there are no close games anymore, it's always a blowout 50/50


Because bad players will not adapt, or in this case, low skill players rarely have the skill required to adapt or communicate. Even if those two things are met, low skilled players suck mechanically. This means low skills players are always going to be in stomp games because of their lack of skill. Stomp games happen in GM as well, but it's less so because all else is relatively equal.

12/09/2017 04:40 PMPosted by WIDOWORSYM
So now, unless you're in Diamond, you are still dealing with the same jacked up system. So, they only changed the system for about 20% of OW players.

TL;DR: These changes do nothing for plat heroes or those who belong in a higher rank. It only creates an atmosphere for people to only choose the hero on which they perform best. In doing so, they will actually ensure they increase their rank. Their SR will move up slowly but it will rise over time and this system just perpetuates "omg look I got the most medals" and toxicity.


This is BS. My main problem with comp is the unintentional forced loss rate. You do well for back to back matches, get a new season high, and then you seem to be put on teams with AWFUL players.

This is implicitly due to the personal performance comparison in my opinion. If you are doing well over 3-5 matches, you will start to be considered the "carry" of the group. In order to make the match closest to the 50% on each side, they rate you as higher talent then your entire other team. If you are a support main like me, this sucks! Even as a tank main, this sucks! The only time this benefits you as if you are a really good attack or defense hero. The most effective carries are attack heroes, period.

This is just sad and pathetic. I can group up with someone 1700 SR because I am high plat. The range is far too high and this makes me not want to play Flex heroes at all!

Just to prove that personal performance is system is a joke -

I was playing Moira and was pretty good at her. I got multiple POTGs and would always end up with gold heals no matter the other healer. I also received gold elims, obj kills and obj time (3+ medals) over multiple games. I wrote down every single game over the course of 2 days that I played.

I have played a ton of Mercy. Pre-buff, during buff, post nerf and then after the last change, I now refuse to play her. I would usually gain 15-20 SR for wins and lose 25+ for most losses. WTF. Regardless, I would usually win more games so I climbed.

Now comes Moira - new hero, new stats but still based on personal performance. Over 20 games, I never lost more than 20SR for any game except one. Numerous times, on wins, I gained 25+ SR easily. I did have multiple medals during most of those games. My SR is slowly but surely rising. Why does this not happen when I play Mercy? Hmm...maybe her SR gains/losses are f'ed up. Knowing that I am always going to gain 25+ SR and lose less, why would I not always pick Moira and become a one-trick? The only time I pick an attack hero is if the other players on my team suck and I have to.

After the 20 games, I had an exact 50% win rate and I played Moira 90+% of the time. Although, with my game play being very consistent and mostly playing Moira, I still ended the 20 games 40SR higher than I had started even though I had won 10 games and lost 10 games. According to this example, this proves that I belong at a higher rank. It may not prove that I belong at Diamond but it def proves I don't belong in 2700. Moreover, when I reached 2800 SR, I was still gaining roughly the same amount of SR and losing the same amount of SR but after breaking my season high, I went on a 7 game loss streak...like seriously??

This is why you cannot break out of a rank easily - especially as a support hero. I for one will continue to play Moira and insta-locking her because at the end of the day, personal performance is what really matters in the long run. Blizzard picks the winners and losers of a match pretty much so if you continue to play the same hero you are best at, over the course of many games, you will rise in rank.


What's your main account? You've yet to link your main account. And this is the 2nd day you're whining about the samething.
1. Forced 50% isn't a thing. It's a misinterpretation of what was said by Blizzard and proves you have a very poor understanding of mathematics in general.

2. Moira is very strong if not overpowered at the moment. In Diamond+, she's mostly played as a dps because she's actually very strong at killing things. You're not amazing for getting gold medals with her, you're just playing a strong hero the right way. Playing her as a full-on healer right now is terrible. You might as well play Mercy.

3. I still think performance-based SR needs to go. It's simply not as pure as win/loss.
its remained for bronze-plat to boost smurfs out of the rank quickly. otherwise i cant wait to stomp for 2x as many matchs.
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20759578371

This topic is important! This is a potential possibility to improve comp even further!

As for my opinion on the S8 changes, I smell a sense of favoritism. Being well known really helps push ideas forward, and it feels as though they've caved into the demand of the well known youtubers and streamers, it blows that they can push opinions whilst the everyone else gets ignored, people like me!

I really hope they get this system in for all ranks rather than half cut it.
It's going to be fun in platinum next season. All the one tricks with low win rates are going to drop into platinum.
12/09/2017 05:58 PMPosted by Kaawumba
See

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20759379305

and

03/02/2017 07:35 PMPosted by Scott Mercer
We're always trying to put you in fair matches that we think you have a 50% chance to win, and do it quickly so you're playing Overwatch instead of staring at a queue timer. We never intentionally seek to put you in an unfair one.

I've seen comments like "I just won three games in a row, so the matchmaker put me in a bad stomp to get back to a 50% win rate". It doesn't do anything like that at all. It just keeps on trying to find fair matches. If you do win more than you lose, your SR will slowly go up. As that happens it'll also put you up stronger opponents that match your new SR. That's not so you lose, it's to keep your matches fair.

There's one other thing to remember, though. The results of a match that the matchmaker thought was perfectly fair don't always result in a match that is hard fought every meter of the payload and you win by just holding them off from reaching the final checkpoint at 0:00 time remaining. Matches with teams of equal skill result in 3-0 stomps more than you think. Maybe an early fight snowballed out of control due to staggered spawns, maybe a player decided he was going to try to pickup a new hero that match, or perhaps your's cat decided to play with your keyboard right before you used that Graviton Surge and it wildly missed its mark. We're all human, and we don't perform at the perfectly same level all the time. It's one of the reasons competitive games are so much fun to play and watch.


This does not answer any questions.
12/09/2017 07:55 PMPosted by WIDOWORSYM
This does not answer any questions.


You said

12/09/2017 04:40 PMPosted by WIDOWORSYM
This is BS. My main problem with comp is the unintentional forced loss rate. You do well for back to back matches, get a new season high, and then you seem to be put on teams with AWFUL players.


Scott says

I've seen comments like "I just won three games in a row, so the matchmaker put me in a bad stomp to get back to a 50% win rate". It doesn't do anything like that at all.


If you don't find Scott's answer to your broken understanding of matchmaking acceptable, then I can't really help you.
12/09/2017 06:19 PMPosted by Shelyo
12/09/2017 06:10 PMPosted by WIDOWORSYM
...

Not true considering how many OTPs are in this game and the system they perpetuate.

OTPs usually have a winrate of 50% and more. So you're most of the times not in such a bad spot if you play with them (it's just unfun). I also don't think that they're such a huge problem from Bronze to Plat (I saw only one there and I spent quite some hours in plat). Stop the witchhunting. OTPs are a way bigger problem on Grandmaster+ where every player is skilled and meta matters. Up there, an optimal and a suboptimal hero choice can make the difference.

So yeah, "elo hell" would be way worse if you don't have a performance based SR system from Bronze to Plat. Especially in Bronze around 1000 where it's full of leavers (personal experience, maybe I am wrong about it).


no you are right. meta doesnt matter in plat and below. it really doesnt. people dont understand comp to that degree in that rank nor do they have the ability to communicate as well. nobody understands target priority, how to counter dive, how to counter standard, how to punish overextending tanks or how to not overextend themselves. as a matter of fact i doubt most know what dive or standard actually is and what to do. teams win with no healers at all, teams win with 4 tanks, teams win with all dps, it really doesnt matter the winning factor is basically whoever can kill the most. nobody combos ults or saves ults for the team its just like tdm. this guy is complaining about OTPs and this SR change when in reality, OTPs, dps mains, etc dont matter in those ranks because meta and team comps dont matter. you can win with anything. nobody knows how to counter pick or use their abilities. and this SR change is good for those ranks, it will keep the smurfs from sticking around in those ranks too long, it will keep boosted players from getting out of those ranks because the booster will still gain more than the person being boosted. there is no reason for this change to be implemented in ranks where 5dps actually works.
<Removed by forum moderator for toxicity>
12/09/2017 06:00 PMPosted by Gary
That still doesn't explain why there are no close games anymore, it's always a blowout 50/50

A big reason for stomps in lower rank is that people give up. When I reached diamond, that was one of the most shocking differences: people just don't give up very often. They don't panic as much when they get snowballed in 2 minutes on 2 cp, and everyone knows that 6-5 matches are a thing. They also know that holding streets on escort/hybrid is nearly impossible, so they don't panic either just because the other team hits the second checkpoint. Maybe some people will switch after a lost team fight or two, but that's about it. Whereas in gold and below, people routinely panic-switch in very chaotic ways, start throwing, or become toxic if you lose the first point, or even just the first team fight. Plat is in the middle: plat players don't make as many terrible decisions after losing a few fights, but they will lose hope in a more silent way.
12/09/2017 07:52 PMPosted by Faking
It's going to be fun in platinum next season. All the one tricks with low win rates are going to drop into platinum.

The myth that one-tricks are artificially high SR because they game the performance system is ridiculous. There are actually very few Diamond+ one tricks with <50% win rate and most of them are Mercy's.

If anything, a lot of one-tricks are artificially lower then they should because :
People throw on purpose to screw with one-tricks (mostly limited to non-meta one-tricks).
One-tricks play their hero in every situation (some less than ideal) but still get compared stats-wise to the hero's average (which is skewed towards ideal situation stats).

I expect big gains in Season 8 considering my break-even point is 60% win rate at the moment.
When you win a competitive match of Overwatch, you gain Skill Rating, and when you lose a match you also lose Skill Rating. The amount that you gain or lose is calculated based on many different factors, and here’s a quick list of some of the most important ones...

This is by Scott Mercer regarding the SR changes... The amount that you gain or lose is calculated based on >> MANY << different factors.. The keyword here is Many... Now he lists like 3 reasons.. I don't care about those reasons tbh.. I want to know the other reasons besides the ones he lists..

Blizzard is awfully quiet and secretive about the "Other Factors" Makes me think this system has more to it than meets the eye.. Other stuff built into it that Blizzard obviously doesn't want us to see..
12/09/2017 06:03 PMPosted by Shelyo
Mercy had SR gain problems, because the res stats were compared for a while with her op state before. Also, bad Mercy SR gain is usually to a lack of damage boosting.

It's easier to climb with a performance based system than with win/loss btw.


12/09/2017 02:48 PMPosted by Hauven
Now let me explain why performance based SR is bad, much worse.

  • Encourages one tricking in an attempt to stat pad/chase to climb faster
  • Discourages teamwork
  • Tanks generally get a little bit less SR in comparison to DPS heroes
  • Supports generally get less SR in comparison to DPS heroes (with maybe the exception of Ana, Moira or Zen depending how you play them)
  • Encourages people to play DPS heroes because of the above, regardless of if and how they may be helping their team or not
  • Is far quicker to de-rank deliberately in order to stomp matches in a much lower tier a person doesn't belong in
  • Is far quicker to get boosted into a higher tier, and by boosted I mean 'illegally'
  • Encourages toxicity because of the above frustrations

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