Blizzard, please learn from your D.Va changes

General Discussion
Sorry, I know you're not suppose to call out the company in the title, but since htis is a positive thread, and since this is a message for the developers specifically, I hope it's okay this time.

I'm specifically talking about the Defense Matrix-Micro Missile changes.

I've been a D.Va Main for most of the seasons of OW and I always love playing her. But my personal preferential playstyle was aggressive, and a defensive oriented D.Va was simply better because Defense Matrix ate too much damage for your team. This was a problem because people felt their plays were mattering. To this, you made several changes changes: Nerf the amount of Defense Matrix you have and the recharge time, and you added Micromissiles and you allowed us to fire while flying.

To date, I believe this is the best change to the game you've made. For aggressive players like me, you gave me more tools to be in the fight. D.Va wasn't rooted to her spot before being able to fire, now she can fly in your face while shooting you down. And micromissiles are a fantastic source of extra damage, giving attacking an extra dimension beyond just aiming. Do I fire missiles to weak an opponent from afar, or do I just get close and unload everything in their face? And Micromissiles can be used while DMing, so you can even save it so you have an offensive when you are backing off too.

In contrast, may defensive D.Va's were upset, thinking their playstyle was being upended. While I am a more aggressive D.Va, I know when to be defensive as well, and while I can't speak for others, I would say that my defensive game has improved as well. Specifically, now I have more decision making to do when I choose how to DM. Do I use it for myself? Or do I save it to protect my teammates? Sometimes 1 is better, sometimes the other.

The other day, I totally ruined the enemy teams entire game plan, because I was DM'd a bastion while reaper took him out. And this choice was significant because I was taking a risk: If the reaper didn't take the Bastion out, then I wouldn't have DM to protect myself once he finished with him. DM is now limited, so having to make a choice between myself or my teammates means that I am participating in a decision making process of risk and reward. Additionally, I feel closer to my team because I have to trust them to use the stepping stone I give them to take advantage of the play.

This applies especially for ults. Unlike before, D.Va can no longer eat an entire Roadhog ult, Soldier ult, barely even a Pharah ult. That means when that happens, I'm not just relying on myself to stop an ult, but on my team to take advantage of the space I am making for them. I can delay the damage to save my team, but I can't just stop it myself, so D.Va needs her team to back her up.

Plus, game changing plays are more satisfying simply because it is harder to pull off. I've eaten plenty of Zarya ults, but I remember one game in particular were I could predict a graviton was coming and it would either make or break us. If I messed up the timing, they'd take the point. With my limited DM, I made my prediction, and it was correct, and it was SO satisfying, because we knew once the Zarya messed up her grav, it was all over.

So now, I hear very few people complaining about D.Va. D.Va fans seem happy with their new Diving Queen, while I haven't heard people complaining about D.Va ruining the game since a few weeks after the nerf happened. If people still prefer the old D.Va, I guess this is your chance to prove me wrong, but I think the lack of complaints on the board puts you in the minority.

Blizzard, this was an excellent change to the game. It was an overall nerf to the character, because she is definitely less controlling of the game now than she was before. Junkrat is more free to spam his grenades, Bastion is more free to fire his turret, Orisa can now fire on the team and actually hit people, and so on, all because D.Va can no longer just negate everything happening. And on D.Va's side, she has more options for combat than before with flying while firing and shooting missiles while DMing.

Do you see what you've done? With these changes, you gave EVERYBODY more things to do in the game. Other characters can feel useful, while D.Va gets to do more than just sit and DM everything in away. And now when she DM's, it feels so much more satisfying and strategic to stop an attack than just doing it mindlessly. Even though this was a nerf, it feels like an incredible buff. You made the game more interesting to play for everyone.

I hope you carry on this philosophy in the future changes you hope to make. You mentioned you were looking at Hanzo's scatter arrow. I'm one of the few people whose alright with the ability, but if you go into Hanzo intending to change him in the way you've changed D.Va, I look forward to seeing what you do with him. I hope you look at Symmetra and Torbjorn and Mei with the same questions of "What can we do to give them more options", and any other heroes you have an eye to change.

So thank you for the Micro Missiles, and here's to a happy new year.
Bumping for attention. I know I wrote a lot, but I genuinely want people to see it, because I think it's the right philosophy for Blizzard to take.
01/02/2018 05:14 PMPosted by Veelk
D.Va fans seem happy with their new Diving Queen


I'm not.

I dislike rework D.Va actually. I'd rather play pre rework.

Also no, it's not a nerf. Not at all. And you aren't seriously trying to say that an ability with an uptime lower than Zarya bubbles was able to block everything ever?

Cause it couldn't. Not at all. 4s matrix was good, but not that good.
01/03/2018 10:24 AMPosted by eskaN
01/02/2018 05:14 PMPosted by Veelk
D.Va fans seem happy with their new Diving Queen


I'm not.

I dislike rework D.Va actually. I'd rather play pre rework.

Also no, it's not a nerf. Not at all. And you aren't seriously trying to say that an ability with an uptime lower than Zarya bubbles was able to block everything ever?

Cause it couldn't. Not at all. 4s matrix was good, but not that good.


I will just respectfully disagree with this
01/03/2018 10:24 AMPosted by eskaN
Also no, it's not a nerf. Not at all. And you aren't seriously trying to say that an ability with an uptime lower than Zarya bubbles was able to block everything ever?

Cause it couldn't. Not at all. 4s matrix was good, but not that good.


I'll just say that I disagree with this part. 4s matrix wasn't just about the fact that it was 4 seconds, but it recharged as fast as it did. Used correctly, it's uptime was extremely high, and it could as a result block the vast majority of the damage coming in, especially ults that announce their activation (Soldier yelling "I GOT YOU IN MY SIGHTS" before firing meant that I was on him before he could get his ult off. And there was almost enver a time where my DM was too depleted to be useful in stopping him unless I was out of my meka. compared to now where good soldiers pay attention to whether I'm out and I'm often left having to retreat).

Her offensive abilities were buffed, but I would say that the old DM was just that effective that the as good as the offense is now, it's still not comparable to how much DM shut down.
01/03/2018 10:36 AMPosted by Veelk
01/03/2018 10:24 AMPosted by eskaN
Also no, it's not a nerf. Not at all. And you aren't seriously trying to say that an ability with an uptime lower than Zarya bubbles was able to block everything ever?

Cause it couldn't. Not at all. 4s matrix was good, but not that good.


I'll just say that I disagree with this part. 4s matrix wasn't just about the fact that it was 4 seconds, but it recharged as fast as it did. Used correctly, it's uptime was extremely high, and it could as a result block the vast majority of the damage coming in, especially ults that announce their activation (Soldier yelling "I GOT YOU IN MY SIGHTS" before firing meant that I was on him before he could get his ult off. And there was almost enver a time where my DM was too depleted to be useful in stopping him unless I was out of my meka. compared to now where good soldiers pay attention to whether I'm out and I'm often left having to retreat).

Her offensive abilities were buffed, but I would say that the old DM was just that effective that the as good as the offense is now, it's still not comparable to how much DM shut down.


Under realistic circumstances, DM uptime was a low 10%. It's not "if used correctly" but rather if the enemy team doesn't know how to play the game and never shoots at you, letting you be in mech 100% of the match.

Time spent demeched, respawn, when you ult, when no team is pushing etc. all lower DM uptime by a lot.

That's far from extremely high.

Also, please no more reworks like this. I'd prefer tanks actually staying tanks and not becoming fat DPS, thanks.
If D.va can Defend herself and shoot at the same time, we need to give Rein a shield bash, at least he only has one health bar.
01/03/2018 10:44 AMPosted by eskaN
Under realistic circumstances, DM uptime was a low 10%. It's not "if used correctly" but rather if the enemy team doesn't know how to play the game and never shoots at you, letting you be in mech 100% of the match.

Time spent demeched, respawn, when you ult, when no team is pushing etc. all lower DM uptime by a lot.

That's far from extremely high.

Also, please no more reworks like this. I'd prefer tanks actually staying tanks and not becoming fat DPS, thanks.


Under realistic circumstances, you wouldn't have the DM uptime be all around a match because of the time between engagements and the fact that you had to fire on people as well. And even when it was 4 seconds, you found more use in feathering it than literally just holding it up as long as you could. AND there comes points where DM is less effective than just helping finishing off the enemy team. If the enemy lost 2 players, then you shouldn't even bother protecting your team anymore (Healers can take care of any damage that goes through) and focus on staggering them.

In the normal moments of combat, 4 seconds is a VERY long time for your team to overwhelm them with damage that is coming through while theirs is not. So, yeah, if you look at it without context, DM is not gonna be up literally every moment of the match, but all the moments of combat that matter, yes. Which was ultimately the problem, where D.Va needed to erase attacks, it was nearly always available.
Would of been fine with the Dm nerf if we instead got some more internal survivability instead of the rockets.

she "feels" squishy af.

and with the rockets she does do good damage but she may as well be a defense hero.

should of just given her ironclad for her crit box.
01/03/2018 11:06 AMPosted by Veelk
01/03/2018 10:44 AMPosted by eskaN
Under realistic circumstances, DM uptime was a low 10%. It's not "if used correctly" but rather if the enemy team doesn't know how to play the game and never shoots at you, letting you be in mech 100% of the match.

Time spent demeched, respawn, when you ult, when no team is pushing etc. all lower DM uptime by a lot.

That's far from extremely high.

Also, please no more reworks like this. I'd prefer tanks actually staying tanks and not becoming fat DPS, thanks.


Under realistic circumstances, you wouldn't have the DM uptime be all around a match because of the time between engagements and the fact that you had to fire on people as well. And even when it was 4 seconds, you found more use in feathering it than literally just holding it up as long as you could. AND there comes points where DM is less effective than just helping finishing off the enemy team. If the enemy lost 2 players, then you shouldn't even bother protecting your team anymore (Healers can take care of any damage that goes through) and focus on staggering them.

In the normal moments of combat, 4 seconds is a VERY long time for your team to overwhelm them with damage that is coming through while theirs is not. So, yeah, if you look at it without context, DM is not gonna be up literally every moment of the match, but all the moments of combat that matter, yes. Which was ultimately the problem, where D.Va needed to erase attacks, it was nearly always available.


Having played 400+ hours of old D.Va at GM and Top500...

No. It was not nearly always available. More often than not did you have to use a large part of it on yourself, leaving you with barely any to protect your team with, or just leaving you with no mech at all.

Then again I suppose it takes actual good players to be able to play around DM, and you don't see a lot of those in mid plat.

If there's one thing I can say, it was far from that amazing ability that was always available when needed and would deny absolutely everything in GM. It was never that good.

I'll say it again, Blizzard should NOT do more reworks like this. Tanks should stay tanks, not become fat DPS like with D.Va.
My gripe with the entire D.va balance last year was and still is, what were they trying to do with her? Okay, lemme start by saying at first they wanted her to be an aggressive bully tank. She had high armor and a moderate amount of damage but dangerous upclose where her massive critbox is where you can easily do double damage and make shred her armor with ease.

Okay, but then she was apparently too good at what she was doing and then nerfed? Which changed her from defensive to aggressive because she cant really get into anyones face anymore because she'll melt until the DM changes balanced it out where she can protect her team better instead. Less aggressive and then more defensive.

Then she was changed AGAIN because DM was too powerful that a lot of the mains of Dva wanted to revert and prevent the issue. But the weird thing is, she got changed into an aggressor/ bully tank again. Something she was nerfed in the first place. She became squishy BUT retained burst damage thanks to the addition of missiles, which made her more of an DPS tank like Hog was. They nerfed two parts of what made her a tank, gave her more DPS and didnt bother balancing the other half of the survivability of a tank.

tl;dr. Her role kept changing. From an aggressive dive bully tank, to a dive defense tank, then back to an aggressive DPS; less of a tank and more of a DPS(?) I get that shes an off tank now but, come on. Even Hog is tankier than her. Why so many iterations of her? Shes has the most changes to her playstyle that it would ofc upset the playerbase.
Remember boys and girls, this is the sort of person DM was nerfed for!

People who go ""4 out of every 15 seconds" is kind of like "all the time", right?"
I like the new dva alot too. But i feel like she loses her mech very fast if she doesnt have heals pumped into her. I kind of want an extra second of dm or maybe an extra 100 armor so we dont melt as fast.
01/03/2018 11:17 AMPosted by eskaN
Having played 400+ hours of old D.Va at GM and Top500...

No. It was not nearly always available. More often than not did you have to use a large part of it on yourself, leaving you with barely any to protect your team with, or just leaving you with no mech at all.

Then again I suppose it takes actual good players to be able to play around DM, and you don't see a lot of those in mid plat.

If there's one thing I can say, it was far from that amazing ability that was always available when needed and would deny absolutely everything in GM. It was never that good.

I'll say it again, Blizzard should NOT do more reworks like this. Tanks should stay tanks, not become fat DPS like with D.Va.


I mean, you can use my ranking against me if you want, but it's not like Pro's weren't saying basically the same thing I am. DM was available all the time for them, and their complaints about it were second only to Mercy's rez ability.

Besides, Blizzard has gone on record that they are balancing for all rankings, not just the top players.
Blizzard does a lot of things right but I'm not a fan of changing a heroes entire kit e.g., adding or taking away abilities and etc.
01/03/2018 11:42 AMPosted by Veelk
01/03/2018 11:17 AMPosted by eskaN
Having played 400+ hours of old D.Va at GM and Top500...

No. It was not nearly always available. More often than not did you have to use a large part of it on yourself, leaving you with barely any to protect your team with, or just leaving you with no mech at all.

Then again I suppose it takes actual good players to be able to play around DM, and you don't see a lot of those in mid plat.

If there's one thing I can say, it was far from that amazing ability that was always available when needed and would deny absolutely everything in GM. It was never that good.

I'll say it again, Blizzard should NOT do more reworks like this. Tanks should stay tanks, not become fat DPS like with D.Va.


I mean, you can use my ranking against me if you want, but it's not like Pro's weren't saying basically the same thing I am. DM was available all the time for them, and their complaints about it were second only to Mercy's rez ability.

Besides, Blizzard has gone on record that they are balancing for all rankings, not just the top players.


Why does everyone get so offended when I mention rank? It's objectively true that heroes are better in some ranks than they are in others, same goes for abilities.

And SoloQ GM, it's far from how good it would be in mid plat. Simple.

Top players overreact A LOT. Just recently ChipSa, one of the best Doomfists in the world complained about D.Va blocking everything when she blocked ONE shot from him.

And balancing for all ranks? Yeah we see how well that is working with Mei, Symmetra, Doomfist, Bastion, Torbjörn...

Great balancing there.
01/03/2018 11:55 AMPosted by eskaN
Why does everyone get so offended when I mention rank? It's objectively true that heroes are better in some ranks than they are in others, same goes for abilities.

And SoloQ GM, it's far from how good it would be in mid plat. Simple.

Top players overreact A LOT. Just recently ChipSa, one of the best Doomfists in the world complained about D.Va blocking everything when she blocked ONE shot from him.

And balancing for all ranks? Yeah we see how well that is working with Mei, Symmetra, Doomfist, Bastion, Torbjörn...

Great balancing there.


But...you're the one who brought up your rank as a way of justifying your experience? Like, that was your justification for why I might not have been demeka-ed as much as you.

I'm not offended, it was just the natural counter to your argument. Blizzard balances for all ranks, not just GM. Whether you agree with that or not, that's what they do, and it's been a major improvement for my experience. And if you are bringing up your experience as GM, it's worth noting that GM players themselves disagree with you. Again, whether you think they over react or not, they have an equal say to you.
01/03/2018 12:14 PMPosted by Veelk
01/03/2018 11:55 AMPosted by eskaN
Why does everyone get so offended when I mention rank? It's objectively true that heroes are better in some ranks than they are in others, same goes for abilities.

And SoloQ GM, it's far from how good it would be in mid plat. Simple.

Top players overreact A LOT. Just recently ChipSa, one of the best Doomfists in the world complained about D.Va blocking everything when she blocked ONE shot from him.

And balancing for all ranks? Yeah we see how well that is working with Mei, Symmetra, Doomfist, Bastion, Torbjörn...

Great balancing there.


But...you're the one who brought up your rank as a way of justifying your experience? Like, that was your justification for why I might not have been demeka-ed as much as you.

I'm not offended, it was just the natural counter to your argument. Blizzard balances for all ranks, not just GM. Whether you agree with that or not, that's what they do, and it's been a major improvement for my experience. And if you are bringing up your experience as GM, it's worth noting that GM players themselves disagree with you. Again, whether you think they over react or not, they have an equal say to you.


98% of people that complained in my games were DPS mains. The kind of DPS main that will complain about everything that stops them from getting more kills, and they just so happened to play heroes that were affected a little more by DM than others.

I've had Supports, like an Ana player, in team chat, say that he can't heal because of D.Vas DM being in the way. One of our DPS players immediately responded with how it's a bull!@#$ ability, and what did the Ana say? "No, she's just positioned well."

And it was true. The D.Va was just in a good position to be able to block the Anas healing by either bodyblocking it or by DMing.

It's not that it was an over the top amazing ability, it's that it was something that people didn't want to learn to play against, so instead they just complain so it gets nerfed, just so they don't have to learn how to play against it.

Hell, even when she was a "DM Bot" she blocked the second lowest amount of damage on average out of the 5 tanks that can block damage, so excluding Roadhog.
The only complaint I have with her rework was that her role completely changed. Personally, I had no problem adapting to the new change and I've been able to make this new D.Va work. However, my duo has not.

My duo is a support main and typically could not handle the chaos and the pressure and responsibility that comes with being a tank. They could not play Rein or Winston for the life of them because they would end up panicking. They know they do not belong on the frontlines. However, they have found that there were two tanks they could play. Zarya, since her bubbles require timing and knowing when someone is about to take a lot of damage (a skillset that they gained from playing supports); and D.Va back when she had her more defensive playstyle. Because it was essentially stay in the middle of your team, and if you see a lot of damage coming, pull up DM. If you realize someone on your team is being focused, put them in the DM. Stuff like that. And they enjoyed that playstyle because it did not necessarily require them to be in the frontlines but they could still perform the job as a tank and protect the team. They were able to learn how D.Va worked in this iteration and even got a few nice Self Destructs every now and then. Both Zarya and D.Va were tanks that did not have to be in the chaos and that worked for them.

But since the D.Va change, they have not been nearly as effective. The D.Va we had before was a playstyle that they excelled at. But now that was gone, and they had to relearn her. Even now, they aren't as good of a D.Va as they were previously. Back when I was relearning her, I didn't feel like my D.Va was as good. Yes, I got gold medals in elims, obj kills and whatnot, but there were times before I fully relearned her where I felt like I did not have enough DM to protect my team. Those times are incredibly rare now that I know how to manage DM, but for the people that thrived on Defensive D.Va, they've lost their tank.

So tl;dr. A lot of people who started to play D.Va back when she was more defensive could not play her after her rework. Just like aggressive D.Vas lost the same fun they had with her back when she first became more defensive. Personally, I wouldn't mind if they found some middle ground between the aggressive players and the defensive ones. My duo and I have talked about this and think giving her 3 seconds on DM might work, but we also realize there may be other ways to balance her and let the defensive players play her more defensively. Also, reduce her critbox.
01/03/2018 12:27 PMPosted by munky0u812
So tl;dr. A lot of people who started to play D.Va back when she was more defensive could not play her after her rework. Just like aggressive D.Vas lost the same fun they had with her back when she first became more defensive. Personally, I wouldn't mind if they found some middle ground between the aggressive players and the defensive ones. My duo and I have talked about this and think giving her 3 seconds on DM might work, but we also realize there may be other ways to balance her and let the defensive players play her more defensively. Also, reduce her critbox.


Personally I've always wanted something closer to a 60/40 or 50/50 mix between damage and tanking, similar to Season 3 which was around 60/40. Season 4 onwards was more 30/70, now it's more of a 80/20.

In my opinion, Season 3 D.Va just had the best balance.

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