Why Handicapping (MMR) is Wrong for Competitive Play

Competitive Discussion
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01/22/2018 03:49 AMPosted by Faoline
01/22/2018 03:33 AMPosted by nagisasama
This bad thing fixed league of legends btw.


LOL is not OW.

In lol, you cann't change you heroes during the match. In OW you Can.
In lol the meta is fix for ages. In OW, meta evolve. During the OWL, pro tried out some comp with 4 tank and 2 healer. So you cann't limit player at a 2/2/2 meta.

That working for LOL won't may be work for OW because it's not the same game.


I'm sure it'll work, because this "don't force 2-2-2" set up mentality is precisely the reason why games have no healers and tanks, a team automatically losses.

Surely a casual like yourself wouldn't mind this at all, but anyone trying to rank up would embrace it gladly.
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we get it you are a pro at OW lol


I'm not, I'm only low diamond lol but I don't believe I'm better than I am like the people upvoting this trash thread lol. It's just funny seeing these people with trash stats complain about their teammates when they are just as bad.


What exactly have stats got to do with anything? You think in silver/bronze it would be gm stats? Do stats tell when you did something that won the game? Its a TEAM game if your fellow team mates arent pulling weight you will die more often your stats will be affected! Are you actually that mindless you dont realise this? Get your head out of Jeffs !@#$ for one minute and admit something isnt right with the match making in this game. Its crystal clear something is broken..you would probably believe the earth is flat if someone told you so lol.
01/22/2018 04:23 AMPosted by nagisasama
I'm sure it'll work, because this "don't force 2-2-2" set up mentality is precisely the reason why games have no healers and tanks, a team automatically losses.


Can you explain how you don't force a 2/2/2 comp with a queue role ?
How the system can know how many DPS you need per game without forcing the 2/2/2.
The matchmaking have to make choose and it's a program that means you have to give to the system some variable to define a team.

May be i do have enough imagination but for me role queue isn't a realistic thing for OW.

The best way to do it is making a team before queuing.
01/22/2018 05:12 AMPosted by Faoline
01/22/2018 04:23 AMPosted by nagisasama
I'm sure it'll work, because this "don't force 2-2-2" set up mentality is precisely the reason why games have no healers and tanks, a team automatically losses.


Can you explain how you don't force a 2/2/2 comp with a queue role ?
How the system can know how many DPS you need per game without forcing the 2/2/2.
The matchmaking have to make choose and it's a program that means you have to give to the system some variable to define a team.

May be i do have enough imagination but for me role queue isn't a realistic thing for OW.

The best way to do it is making a team before queuing.


Because you have to select a primary and secondary role..it's not exactly hard to make sure you have 2 healers, 2-3 tanks. Most higher rated players would gladly embrace this change.

I'm not sure what this godly feature of "allowing free change" is so good for. Clearly many people have suffered extremely one sided games and lost games straight out of char select.
01/22/2018 05:35 AMPosted by nagisasama
Because you have to select a primary and secondary role..it's not exactly hard to make sure you have 2 healers, 2-3 tanks. Most higher rated players would gladly embrace this change.

I'm not sure what this godly feature of "allowing free change" is so good for. Clearly many people have suffered extremely one sided games and lost games straight out of char select.


Like i said, how you don't force a team in a 2/2/2 comp ? By selecting 2 3 or 100 heroes it won't change the fact you have to force the team in 2/2/2 to make that role queue working.

Even if the top player want it, it's not possible to make it work in OW. The only way to make it working is to force the team in 2/2/2 and remove the switch heroes during the game.

Another possibility like in HOST making mirror comp with random comp but that mean you can have 6 dps againt 6 dps or 6 heal against 6 heal.

Like you i wish an improvement in MM but role queue isn't the solution.
01/22/2018 05:48 AMPosted by Faoline
01/22/2018 05:35 AMPosted by nagisasama
Because you have to select a primary and secondary role..it's not exactly hard to make sure you have 2 healers, 2-3 tanks. Most higher rated players would gladly embrace this change.

I'm not sure what this godly feature of "allowing free change" is so good for. Clearly many people have suffered extremely one sided games and lost games straight out of char select.


Like i said, how you don't force a team in a 2/2/2 comp ? By selecting 2 3 or 100 heroes it won't change the fact you have to force the team in 2/2/2 to make that role queue working.

Even if the top player want it, it's not possible to make it work in OW. The only way to make it working is to force the team in 2/2/2 and remove the switch heroes during the game.

Another possibility like in HOST making mirror comp with random comp but that mean you can have 6 dps againt 6 dps or 6 heal against 6 heal.

Like you i wish an improvement in MM but role queue isn't the solution.


What's wrong with not allowing people to switch out of their primary/secondary role, esp if 1-2 such roles are missing in the team comp? It's an easily fixed mechanic. Would also do wonders for solo queue.
01/22/2018 06:05 AMPosted by nagisasama
What's wrong with not allowing people to switch out of their primary/secondary role, esp if 1-2 such roles are missing in the team comp? It's an easily fixed mechanic. Would also do wonders for solo queue.


So most player DPS will select heal as primary and Dps as secondary to reduce the queue time. In the end, they will take a DPS, so you have the same problem as now.
Don't underestimate the human perversion.

And the solo queue is a mind set. In OW you are queuing that all. MM try to make team from solo and group of player (2,3,4,5,6). If you want a solo queue without group, how a group of 5 will complete their group ?
01/22/2018 06:25 AMPosted by Faoline
01/22/2018 06:05 AMPosted by nagisasama
What's wrong with not allowing people to switch out of their primary/secondary role, esp if 1-2 such roles are missing in the team comp? It's an easily fixed mechanic. Would also do wonders for solo queue.


So most player DPS will select heal as primary and Dps as secondary to reduce the queue time. In the end, they will take a DPS, so you have the same problem as now.
Don't underestimate the human perversion.

And the solo queue is a mind set. In OW you are queuing that all. MM try to make team from solo and group of player (2,3,4,5,6). If you want a solo queue without group, how a group of 5 will complete their group ?


Did you read what I said, you will not be able to switch out, if there's not already 2 selected..

You select your primary role unless someone else is filling it, allowing you to use your secondary role.

You would do that if you made the system right..?
01/22/2018 06:48 AMPosted by nagisasama
Did you read what I said, you will not be able to switch out, if there's not already 2 selected..

You select your primary role unless someone else is filling it, allowing you to use your secondary role.

You would do that if you made the system right..?


"2 role already selected" so you force the meta in 2/2/2.

Why are you becoming aggressive by said "if you are so good do it" ? I'm just showing you the problem of a role queue. If it's that simple Blizzard would have done it a long time ago.

I try to find out a good system by myself but with a data i have about the MM there is always a problem whatever is the solution.

For me one of the best way to limit this problem is club or clan function and to replay on the good mood of player but it's far from perfect.
...

exceptions are what makes a system plausible, since they are so few compared to the overall player base. Do you think humans differ so much from each other? Do you think that people dont spend many hours in the game and practice as much, as lets say a master or a gm? You are delusional then and you should really take a trip in my rank and check reality.


1.86 elims per life 2.2k Mcree OMEGALUL

You are just another delusional forum elo hell believer who thinks they are better than they actually are.


Dude you are really toxic against him and you have no right to act like this. Maybe he is just trying to improve on a hero he is not accostumed or "talented" in, maybe he is an alt account or something who knows. You guys should pair your sh1t and brag yourself with other scrubs like you, because you are a top notch reason of this game being toxic. So many people get mad at the game and dont accept their rank cause illuminady dudes like you spread negativity and false competition, by bragging themselves and spitting on others account. These action should be bannable imo and competition should be not only primarly fair, but more importantly healthy and human.
At what stage does a thread actually recieve an official response...only 18 pages so far great work on the swift reply to the people who actually pay for your product....
We are quickly approaching the 25 page mark, and the 500 reply limit for another thread.

Readers, please post in other forums as well as this one if you would like to promote or counter my argument. We need a bigger audience than this forum allows. I've recently updated the General Discussion forum thread:
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20759427864

I've also posted requests for comment, as replies to several Blizzard developer posts. We've polled and discussed this issue long enough to warrant their attention, imho.

I'm also working on a podcast version of this post. Might find traction on YouTube.
01/22/2018 09:57 AMPosted by Cuthbert
We are quickly approaching the 25 page mark, and the 500 reply limit for another thread.

Readers, please post in other forums as well as this one if you would like to promote or counter my argument. We need a bigger audience than this forum allows. I've recently updated the General Discussion forum thread:
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20759427864

I've also posted requests for comment, as replies to several Blizzard developer posts. We've polled and discussed this issue long enough to warrant their attention, imho.

I'm also working on a podcast version of this post. Might find traction on YouTube.


I think it's your 5th thread, but you or anyone has yet to post video footage/gameplay of this happening to them. Stop making excuses and ducking legit solutions, just post your gameplay already.
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LOL is not OW.

In lol, you cann't change you heroes during the match. In OW you Can.
In lol the meta is fix for ages. In OW, meta evolve. During the OWL, pro tried out some comp with 4 tank and 2 healer. So you cann't limit player at a 2/2/2 meta.

That working for LOL won't may be work for OW because it's not the same game.


I'm sure it'll work, because this "don't force 2-2-2" set up mentality is precisely the reason why games have no healers and tanks, a team automatically losses.

Surely a casual like yourself wouldn't mind this at all, but anyone trying to rank up would embrace it gladly.


Experienced Overwatch players know that there is something wrong with the game. I posit that handicapping is that 'something wrong.'

People have come at fixing the game from a lot of other angles. Role selection, limiting group sizes, segregating solo queue and group play...none of it will fix the fundamental problem. Handicapping would continue ruining the game after all of these changes.
01/22/2018 10:00 AMPosted by Hun
01/22/2018 09:57 AMPosted by Cuthbert
We are quickly approaching the 25 page mark, and the 500 reply limit for another thread.

Readers, please post in other forums as well as this one if you would like to promote or counter my argument. We need a bigger audience than this forum allows. I've recently updated the General Discussion forum thread:
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20759427864

I've also posted requests for comment, as replies to several Blizzard developer posts. We've polled and discussed this issue long enough to warrant their attention, imho.

I'm also working on a podcast version of this post. Might find traction on YouTube.


I think it's your 5th thread, but you or anyone has yet to post video footage/gameplay of this happening to them. Stop making excuses and ducking legit solutions, just post your gameplay already.


How will a video of 1 persons gameplay prove your point? Its a team game 6 players per team..each players actions can affect the flow of the game ive played badly but still won and visa versa.

When watching sports highlights for example football/soccer would watching just one player play give you an idea of what went wrong right? No ofcourse not can one person be blamed if the team losses sometimes but rarely if you had Messi playing for some !@#$ team in the premier league do you think that team would win just because they had 1 great player? No you need a decent keeper , defence and midfield to work with that player...
The more I play this game, the more I see competitive mode in this way. My account is probably an interesting case study. I came to PC from Xbox and had 3 accounts with maybe 800 levels among them. My main was low Master tier when I switched. This season (my first) I placed in high Gold on PC and easily climbed to high Platinum within 2-3 days. From there my bread and butter Soldier 76 gameplay was no longer able to "carry me" and my team. I was matched against Tracer/Genji/Widow GM smurfs (at least 4 players in every game are sub-100 level) who seem to come with their personal Mercy or Zen pocket. Some would call it boosting, I can't really tell what should count as boosting. Comms all of a sudden are silent or toxic. I get 4 tank mains who all play like their "W" button is taped down. It really is frustrating, challenging, and addicting at the same time.

I will say, those top tier players who say "git gud" are still right. The best still rise to the top. But man is that a grind. And the type of BS you are exposed to is really testing. I like the term "handicapping", it perfectly describes the feeling of being statistically above average for your rank.
01/22/2018 10:00 AMPosted by Hun
I think it's your 5th thread, but you or anyone has yet to post video footage/gameplay of this happening to them. Stop making excuses and ducking legit solutions, just post your gameplay already.


You could not possibly understand my argument and still be asking for this.
01/04/2018 10:19 AMPosted by Cuthbert

Cause of toxicity
Much toxicity in the Overwatch community stems from cognitive dissonance (a kind psychological distress) caused by handicapping/MMR. When a player succeeds in one match, they are challenged in their next match *by design.* Wondering "What changed?" they can attribute the sudden challenge to unrelated factors by mistake. They may blame their own character selection and actions, or those of their team.

I've been toxic in my own matches. I've chastised many of my own teams who didn't deserve it (especially new/inexperienced players). Because they weren't meant to play with me in the first place; they were destined for lower ranks just as I was destined for higher ones. But handicapping/MMR intervened to everyone's misfortune.


Why is it that you get to be the judge of how good the players that were on your team are? If they were to say that you were a bad player, why would their statement be valid or invalid?

That section that you wrote pretty much says what kind of person you are.
Handicapping is real. In Solo Que the enemy has God Tier GM skilled like players. If I group up with one other player in a two man group then suddenly the enemy are actual Gold Skilled and not too difficult to deal with. Why is it in Solo Que the enemy Widow gets triple headshots but in a two man group now suddenly the enemy Widow can't hardly hit anything?

What I am saying is that when I am in any two man group the enemies are much easier. Not sure what is going on with matchmaking to cause this. Makes me feel like my account is cursed in Solo Que to always be up agaist the most difficult enemies but when I am in a two man group its the complete opposite as the enemies are no longer that difficult to me and my team.

If I play Solo Que then I get the most difficult enemies the matchmaker can find in the ELO. In Solo Que I find it nearly impossible to win any game. My team is utterly destroyed and I think its my fault. Whenever I get into a match my team always says that the match was the most stressful and most difficult they have ever encountered and we end up losing.

They say the enemy team probably has at least one if not two GM smurfs on their team cause no Widow is that good in low to mid Gold getting triple headshot kills in every kill cam. They say they have not seen anything like it in any of their other matches.

If not a GM Widow then a GM God tier Mcree or Genji is on the enemy team in low to mid Gold who is team killing our entire team using a combo of regular attacks and ults. We lose again. My team is again utterly destroyed in a one sided loss. My team always says how skilled the enemy is and they can't believe the enemy players are in Gold ELO because no Gold Widow, Genji or McRee is that good in Gold. My team says the enemy must be GM smurfs. They just can't explain it and they act so shocked as if they never seen it before. Well I seem to see it in every game I am in when in Solo Que and rarely if I am in a group.

For example, If I invite a player to my team to group up with me. It does not matter who it is. He may be a support main or a tank main. Now that I am in a two man group the match goes from being impossible to win with highly skilled enemy players to being easier to win and feels more balanced. Now that I am in a two man group the enemy Widow is not getting triple headshots and the enemy Genji is no longer team wiping us. Why is that?
01/22/2018 10:57 AMPosted by Cuthbert
01/22/2018 10:00 AMPosted by Hun
I think it's your 5th thread, but you or anyone has yet to post video footage/gameplay of this happening to them. Stop making excuses and ducking legit solutions, just post your gameplay already.


You could not possibly understand my argument and still be asking for this.


Your whole argument started from the idea that you are better than your teammates, I wanted to quote those examples but you deleted those posts. The foundation for your argument is that "you" selected players believe that you're getting forced into bad teams when you perform too good. You've changed your argument, but it's still on the same foundation.

So just post video evidence of your game play so we can see "handicapping". Stop ducking and making excuses and post your gameplay already. All you do is talk with 0 evidence, it's honestly a simple request. It can be any of you, just 1 of you that believes in this conspiracy theory.

@silvertain, exactly for the reasons you mention that it's a team game and video evidence should support the argument of Cuthbert's conspiracy theorist , they believe that they're being singled out into a "forced 50% win rate". If what this thread is implying is true, then video evidence should be easy to prove that it's true.

We're also not talking about highlights. We're talking about multiple games, at least we'll over 10 games continuous, something to track basically. There is a lot of information you can gather from a person's single view, maybe you can't, but a lot of high ranked player can 3rd map everyone's location. It's easier for us to track information you could normally miss playing.

So stop with the excuses and post gameplay so we can prove the "rigged mmr".

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