Why Handicapping (MMR) is Wrong for Competitive Play

Competitive Discussion
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01/23/2018 11:25 AMPosted by Quarters
01/23/2018 10:49 AMPosted by Whistler

In the NFL the best teams still play the worst teams in season. This would be like 6 GM's vs 6 Silver. That doesn't happen in Overwatch. If the best championship team doesn't perform they way the did the prior year they don't stay champions. But the fact remains that everyone starts at the bottom and works their way up. Just like it should.

And it's not competitive unless the system 100% transparent nothing more nothing less. I wonder why they don't hide the rules in the NFL, MLB, NBA, or the NHL?? Well because it wouldn't be competitive would it??

Plain and simple..

If the conditions were "quite clear" then you woudln't have 1000's posts like this would you??


6 GMs vs 6 Silvers would be more equivalent to an NFL team vs a Middle School team. Don't forget, even the worst NFL team (this season, the Cleveland Browns) is comprised of quality football players, and would be the equivalent of High Masters/edge of Grand Master in OW.


As a Bears fan I am no stranger to loss.. I am just saying that in a season the best teams play the worst teams. If your team won the championship last year that doesn't mean this year all you play against are other champion bracket teams. It resets.. Everyone get's a chance to play everyone else at some point during a season. The person was trying to argue against this fact. Saying all the NFL teams are rated each season blah blah.. Yup they are but that doesn't prevent them from playing against teams beneath their caliber. The champs from last year may or may not be the champs this year. In OW the champs pretty much always stay the champs.
01/23/2018 11:02 AMPosted by Whistler
01/23/2018 10:54 AMPosted by Gazzor
Well, no epic 4 hours worth of clips coming up anytime soon...

But here's a pro player losing 19 in a row and bemoaning his team mates...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDkmX-nZUgc


OH MY GOD!! YOU MEAN THIS HAPPENS????? TO PROS TOO???? WHOA!! Never could of guessed.... Let me guess before Friendly Fire gets in here to comment!! It's because he was "Tilted"!!!


Oh wow, you got me! You can clearly see in my earlier comments I said "losing streaks never happen". The fact that a player went on a losing streak is unarguable proof that blizzard literally rigs games to force 50/50 in match making. /s

Note: Yes pro's can tilt (I mean !@#$, have you heard of xQc?) . Also, ironically, pro's are people who can actually claim "my teammates are all worse than me". When you're in the 99.999th percentile, there is literally not enough people at your skill level to make a game. There are almost never 11 players equal to IDDQD queueing up at the same time. So he does actually get worse teams and is expected to carry, because the only other option is he just gets no game.

This, again, happens in every competitive game. Used to happy in Dota when a 7K MMR pro would have 4K teammates against 5K enemies. Literal pro players push the match maker to the limit, and get crazy queue times and/or unbalanced teams. But it's an extreme edge case. Are you not top 500? You don't have to worry about the game not being able to find 11 players around your skill.

01/23/2018 11:38 AMPosted by Whistler
Saying all the NFL teams are rated each season blah blah.. Yup they are but that doesn't prevent them from playing against teams beneath their caliber.


All NFL teams are effectively top 500 level. Except they only play against other NFL teams (other top 500 players in this analogy). In comparison, in Overwatch they constantly play with and against GM players.

The difference between the NFL and Overwatch is just whether the transition is discrete or continuous. In the NFL, the worst pro's don't play against the best college teams. There's a hard separation. The equivalent would be in Overwatch you only play against your "tier". I.e. GMs never play against masters or top 500.

Ironically, there is more inter-competition in Overwatch. In the NFL, once you hit pro you're pro until you either quit or are dropped. A player can drop out of top 500 in Overwatch. Isn't that what you want? A top 500 from last season isn't given top 500 this season. They have to play 50 games and maintain their SR, which isn't easy unless they are extremely good players.

Once again, your analogy makes no sense for your point. If anything, it provides evidence against you.
People said the same things in league and cs go. People will always ignorantly claim that matchmaking systems are broken even though, ironically, every triple A title uses virtually the same elo based matchmaking system with minimal variance in implementation. You can search “forced 50/50” and all these other buzz words in league forums, people have been saying these things for a decade and will continue to do so.

The reason stems from the fact that most people werent provided the necessary education to fully understand why matchmaking systems work the way they do. and while most peoples SR complaints can be swiftly nullified by an understanding of how statistics work, people tend to have a natural instinct to think they are better than they really are at tasks they do often. There is plenty of psychological research on this phenomenon.
Every season ive had 50% win rate ive had wins and loss's all day but I always end up at 50% give or take 1%
<span class="truncated">...</span>

OH MY GOD!! YOU MEAN THIS HAPPENS????? TO PROS TOO???? WHOA!! Never could of guessed.... Let me guess before Friendly Fire gets in here to comment!! It's because he was "Tilted"!!!


Tell Blizzard to release the SDK or the Source Code.

Oh wow, you got me! You can clearly see in my earlier comments I said "losing streaks never happen". The fact that a player went on a losing streak is unarguable proof that blizzard literally rigs games to force 50/50 in match making. /s

Note: Yes pro's can tilt (I mean !@#$, have you heard of xQc?) . Also, ironically, pro's are people who can actually claim "my teammates are all worse than me". When you're in the 99.999th percentile, there is literally not enough people at your skill level to make a game. There are almost never 11 players equal to IDDQD queueing up at the same time. So he does actually get worse teams and is expected to carry, because the only other option is he just gets no game.

This, again, happens in every competitive game. Used to happy in Dota when a 7K MMR pro would have 4K teammates against 5K enemies. Literal pro players push the match maker to the limit, and get crazy queue times and/or unbalanced teams. But it's an extreme edge case. Are you not top 500? You don't have to worry about the game not being able to find 11 players around your skill.

01/23/2018 11:38 AMPosted by Whistler
Saying all the NFL teams are rated each season blah blah.. Yup they are but that doesn't prevent them from playing against teams beneath their caliber.


All NFL teams are effectively top 500 level. Except they only play against other NFL teams (other top 500 players in this analogy). In comparison, in Overwatch they constantly play with and against GM players.

The difference between the NFL and Overwatch is just whether the transition is discrete or continuous. In the NFL, the worst pro's don't play against the best college teams. There's a hard separation. The equivalent would be in Overwatch you only play against your "tier". I.e. GMs never play against masters or top 500.

Ironically, there is more inter-competition in Overwatch. In the NFL, once you hit pro you're pro until you either quit or are dropped. A player can drop out of top 500 in Overwatch. Isn't that what you want? A top 500 from last season isn't given top 500 this season. They have to play 50 games and maintain their SR, which isn't easy unless they are extremely good players.

Once again, your analogy makes no sense for your point. If anything, it provides evidence against you.[/q

01/23/2018 12:51 PMPosted by alexfly
People said the same things in league and cs go. People will always ignorantly claim that matchmaking systems are broken even though, ironically, every triple A title uses virtually the same elo based matchmaking system with minimal variance in implementation. You can search “forced 50/50” and all these other buzz words in league forums, people have been saying these things for a decade and will continue to do so.

The reason stems from the fact that most people werent provided the necessary education to fully understand why matchmaking systems work the way they do. and while most peoples SR complaints can be swiftly nullified by an understanding of how statistics work, people tend to have a natural instinct to think they are better than they really are at tasks they do often. There is plenty of psychological research on this phenomenon.


[quote]<span class="truncated">...</span>

Oh wow, you got me! You can clearly see in my earlier comments I said "losing streaks never happen". The fact that a player went on a losing streak is unarguable proof that blizzard literally rigs games to force 50/50 in match making. /s

Note: Yes pro's can tilt (I mean !@#$, have you heard of xQc?) . Also, ironically, pro's are people who can actually claim "my teammates are all worse than me". When you're in the 99.999th percentile, there is literally not enough people at your skill level to make a game. There are almost never 11 players equal to IDDQD queueing up at the same time. So he does actually get worse teams and is expected to carry, because the only other option is he just gets no game.

This, again, happens in every competitive game. Used to happy in Dota when a 7K MMR pro would have 4K teammates against 5K enemies. Literal pro players push the match maker to the limit, and get crazy queue times and/or unbalanced teams. But it's an extreme edge case. Are you not top 500? You don't have to worry about the game not being able to find 11 players around your skill.

01/23/2018 11:38 AMPosted by Whistler
Saying all the NFL teams are rated each season blah blah.. Yup they are but that doesn't prevent them from playing against teams beneath their caliber.


All NFL teams are effectively top 500 level. Except they only play against other NFL teams (other top 500 players in this analogy). In comparison, in Overwatch they constantly play with and against GM players.

The difference between the NFL and Overwatch is just whether the transition is discrete or continuous. In the NFL, the worst pro's don't play against the best college teams. There's a hard separation. The equivalent would be in Overwatch you only play against your "tier". I.e. GMs never play against masters or top 500.

Ironically, there is more inter-competition in Overwatch. In the NFL, once you hit pro you're pro until you either quit or are dropped. A player can drop out of top 500 in Overwatch. Isn't that what you want? A top 500 from last season isn't given top 500 this season. They have to play 50 games and maintain their SR, which isn't easy unless they are extremely good players.

Once again, your analogy makes no sense for your point. If anything, it provides evidence against you.


High School, Collage, and any football other league is not the NFL. Not a valid comparison IMO. There are probably collage football teams than can take NFL teams TBH. But if you had to break down each of their respective leagues each one contains it's own Bronze to GM. The Cleveland Browns being Bronze and whatever team wins the Super Bowl being the GM's. Just because you are champs in Collage still doesn't qualify you to jump in and play in the NFL when you feel fancy free. They are separated. Complete and totally independent of each other. Surprisingly none of these leagues have hidden factors implemented into their games.. Figure that!!

Just tell Blizzard to release the SDK or the Source Code to the games ranking system. Let's lay all assumptions to rest.. Wait... Except they can't do that!! Why?? Because there are "hidden" factors embedded into the system they don't want you to see. Funny once again.. Never heard of any other competitive scenario other than Overwatch where factors are hidden from players knowledge. It's supposed to be fair right?? Everyone is supposed to be on a level playing field? The player base doesn't even know what beyond winning and losing games influences their way to climb. How is this considered competitive??
01/23/2018 12:51 PMPosted by alexfly
People said the same things in league and cs go. People will always ignorantly claim that matchmaking systems are broken even though, ironically, every triple A title uses virtually the same elo based matchmaking system with minimal variance in implementation. You can search “forced 50/50” and all these other buzz words in league forums, people have been saying these things for a decade and will continue to do so.

The reason stems from the fact that most people werent provided the necessary education to fully understand why matchmaking systems work the way they do. and while most peoples SR complaints can be swiftly nullified by an understanding of how statistics work, people tend to have a natural instinct to think they are better than they really are at tasks they do often. There is plenty of psychological research on this phenomenon.


This comment summarizes everything wonderfully. It is almost dangerously dense with hard truths.

01/23/2018 01:54 PMPosted by Whistler
High School, Collage, and any football other league is not the NFL. Not a valid comparison IMO. There are probably collage football teams than can take NFL teams TBH. But if you had to break down each of their respective leagues each one contains it's own Bronze to GM. The Cleveland Browns being Bronze and whatever team wins the Super Bowl being the GM's


This analogy is sort of being stretched to the limit, but it is stupid to say the NFL alone is equivalent to bronze to GM. GM contains actual professional players, while bronze contains 6 year olds playing their first competitive match. You can't pretend like that's an equivalent gap in ability to what is between the Cleverland Browns and the Patriots.

01/23/2018 01:54 PMPosted by Whistler
Never heard of any other competitive scenario other than Overwatch where factors are hidden from players knowledge.


CS:GO? League of Legends? Maybe you've heard about these games just a bit...

Are you conspiracy theorist really that ignorant? Have y'all honestly never played another game with a ranked ladder?
hm idk if op is right but there is some interesting discussion going on
01/23/2018 02:43 PMPosted by FriendlyFire
01/23/2018 12:51 PMPosted by alexfly
People said the same things in league and cs go. People will always ignorantly claim that matchmaking systems are broken even though, ironically, every triple A title uses virtually the same elo based matchmaking system with minimal variance in implementation. You can search “forced 50/50” and all these other buzz words in league forums, people have been saying these things for a decade and will continue to do so.

The reason stems from the fact that most people werent provided the necessary education to fully understand why matchmaking systems work the way they do. and while most peoples SR complaints can be swiftly nullified by an understanding of how statistics work, people tend to have a natural instinct to think they are better than they really are at tasks they do often. There is plenty of psychological research on this phenomenon.


This comment summarizes everything wonderfully. It is almost dangerously dense with hard truths.

01/23/2018 01:54 PMPosted by Whistler
High School, Collage, and any football other league is not the NFL. Not a valid comparison IMO. There are probably collage football teams than can take NFL teams TBH. But if you had to break down each of their respective leagues each one contains it's own Bronze to GM. The Cleveland Browns being Bronze and whatever team wins the Super Bowl being the GM's


This analogy is sort of being stretched to the limit, but it is stupid to say the NFL alone is equivalent to bronze to GM. GM contains actual professional players, while bronze contains 6 year olds playing their first competitive match. You can't pretend like that's an equivalent gap in ability to what is between the Cleverland Browns and the Patriots.

01/23/2018 01:54 PMPosted by Whistler
Never heard of any other competitive scenario other than Overwatch where factors are hidden from players knowledge.


CS:GO? League of Legends? Maybe you've heard about these games just a bit...

Are you conspiracy theorist really that ignorant? Have y'all honestly never played another game with a ranked ladder?


If nothing was wrong with Competitive Mode why did they remove PBSR from Diamond and above??? I mean if the system was working as intended such a change wouldn't be necessary would it?

I could say the same thing about your theory comparing high school, collage, etc all to each other even though they are all independent of another. I can also say you are trying to "stretch" the limit for something to put into your rebuttal. But surprisingly none of these leagues have "Hidden" factors implemented that influence their games do they? I mean everyone on the field knows ALL the rules.. Imagine that!!!
01/23/2018 03:08 PMPosted by Whistler
If nothing was wrong with Competitive Mode why did they remove PBSR from Diamond and above??? I mean if the system was working as intended such a change wouldn't be necessary would it?


Did I ever say the system was perfect? No. This is a silly strawman.

There is a big difference between "not rigged" and "perfect".

01/23/2018 03:08 PMPosted by Whistler
But surprisingly none of these leagues have "Hidden" factors implemented that influence their games do they? I mean everyone on the field knows ALL the rules.. Imagine that!!!


There's no hidden rules to winning Overwatch. Rules about how a game is won is entirely separate from the ranking system.

Note: there are in fact leagues that use non-public ranking systems. College football in the US being the major example. The top 4 teams get to go to the playoffs. How do they determine the top 4? Well, just like Overwatch we know the general factors that are taken into account, but the exact method is not public.

Also, I love how many times I've seen you people throw out "no other game does this!" and then pretends like you never said anything when someone brings up the fact that pretty much every competitive game does the same things as Overwatch, including the largest competitive games in the world.
01/23/2018 03:17 PMPosted by FriendlyFire
01/23/2018 03:08 PMPosted by Whistler
If nothing was wrong with Competitive Mode why did they remove PBSR from Diamond and above??? I mean if the system was working as intended such a change wouldn't be necessary would it?


Did I ever say the system was perfect? No. This is a silly strawman.

There is a big difference between "not rigged" and "perfect".

01/23/2018 03:08 PMPosted by Whistler
But surprisingly none of these leagues have "Hidden" factors implemented that influence their games do they? I mean everyone on the field knows ALL the rules.. Imagine that!!!


There's no hidden rules to winning Overwatch. Rules about how a game is won is entirely separate from the ranking system.

Note: there are in fact leagues that use non-public ranking systems. College football in the US being the major example. The top 4 teams get to go to the playoffs. How do they determine the top 4? Well, just like Overwatch we know the general factors that are taken into account, but the exact method is not public.

Also, I love how many times I've seen you people throw out "no other game does this!" and then pretends like you never said anything when someone brings up the fact that pretty much every competitive game does the same things as Overwatch, including the largest competitive games in the world.


If there are no hidden factors then why does the system favor One Trick's? Why even have MMR/SR?? Why would the number of mercy revives or your hero damage play a factor in the amount of points you win or lose? Why would the map or the comparison of your hero performance to your peers be a factor in the amount of points? People have exploited these factors through and through. If I wanted to play in Master I would of bought the 2nd account like everyone else and wiped my MMR. This shouldn't even be a factor either. But it is...

The Dev's will almost never come out and say.. Hey we screwed up.. But when changes are implemented because of the coummunity's growing concerns there is obviously an issue. They are starting to address this issue.. But if the system was doing its job like you say it is then there wouldn't be a reason to change anything would there?? Did Blizzard come out and say at the beginning this is how the system will work?? No they didn't.. Players dug in and took statistics and did comparisons. A bunch of them took it to the next level and exploited it..

I mean you could always do the Bronze to Master challenge and post the results and "Show us how its done" But until you do or any other of the people that defend this system everything you say is really invalid..

Pretty much every other post in this forum is about this same subject.. But of course it's all our faults. We have everyone from Bronze to GM to Professional players posting about this subject. 1000's of posts in here and in reddit.. 100's more come in daily.. I suppose it's all mere coincidence...
<span class="truncated">...</span>

Like i said, how you don't force a team in a 2/2/2 comp ? By selecting 2 3 or 100 heroes it won't change the fact you have to force the team in 2/2/2 to make that role queue working.

Even if the top player want it, it's not possible to make it work in OW. The only way to make it working is to force the team in 2/2/2 and remove the switch heroes during the game.

Another possibility like in HOST making mirror comp with random comp but that mean you can have 6 dps againt 6 dps or 6 heal against 6 heal.

Like you i wish an improvement in MM but role queue isn't the solution.


What's wrong with not allowing people to switch out of their primary/secondary role, esp if 1-2 such roles are missing in the team comp? It's an easily fixed mechanic. Would also do wonders for solo queue.


not being able to switch would change a fairly big mechanic of the game, its not a good idea.

A role q would still be good though, having games with atleast one healer and one tank would be a start and that wouldn't force meta because you always need one tank and one healer right?

Even if the game looks to make 2\2\2 teams those teams can still switch roles to suit meta! All you would be doing is trying to give both teams a more even base to work with instead of potentially having 4 healer mains on one team and 4 dps mains on the other.

i'm sure its more complicated to program and work out but i could see it being a positive change.
I will win multiple matches in a row, performing well in every match and at some point the game flips the tables entirely. I will perform the same way that I was the previous games but now Ill notice that my teammates are in odd positions, that they are more likely to die. That they are more volatile, and the the team work breaks down and regardless of what I do. It won't matter.

Games where I notice that my teammates know their limits and they are more thoughtful about their actions, we win. But as soon as I win 2-3 in row, then I get a losing streak where its entirely 1 sided and chaotic. Where you legitimately question how these people climbed at all to masters and above.
+
01/23/2018 01:03 PMPosted by silvertain
Every season ive had 50% win rate ive had wins and loss's all day but I always end up at 50% give or take 1%
Sounds like the matchmaker has you placed at the rank that you belong out. Must be rigged...to...match you with equally skilled players.

01/23/2018 10:31 AMPosted by Whistler
Major League Sports - The system is transparent and all the players on the field know ALL the rules of their respective game. They know what they need to do in order to win within the games rules. The NFL doesn't hide the fact that if you take the football over the opposing teams endzone line you score a touchdown!! The NBA doesn't hide the fact that if you put the Basketball in the basket you score points. Does the MLB hide Home Runs?? Does the NHL hide goals?? No.. Everyone is on a level playing field..
What don't you understand about how to win a game in overwatch?

01/23/2018 10:31 AMPosted by Whistler
Should I go on?? I really shouldn't have to..
Please don't.
01/23/2018 12:51 PMPosted by alexfly
People said the same things in league and cs go. People will always ignorantly claim that matchmaking systems are broken even though, ironically, every triple A title uses virtually the same elo based matchmaking system with minimal variance in implementation. You can search “forced 50/50” and all these other buzz words in league forums, people have been saying these things for a decade and will continue to do so.


Just because something is "industry standard" doesn't make it right. Just look at the tobacco, gambling, and alcohol industries. Do you think there are no ethical issues in gaming?

01/23/2018 12:51 PMPosted by alexfly
The reason stems from the fact that most people werent provided the necessary education to fully understand why matchmaking systems work the way they do. and while most peoples SR complaints can be swiftly nullified by an understanding of how statistics work, people tend to have a natural instinct to think they are better than they really are at tasks they do often. There is plenty of psychological research on this phenomenon.


People who take your position on this issue *love* to play amateur psychologist. But answer a simple question. Do you understand that MMR is used to effect handicapping in Competitive Overwatch?
01/23/2018 11:10 AMPosted by Whistler
Since we don't know all the true workings of the ranking system.. Anyone's theory could be right or wrong. Cuth's or anyone's idea may have more truth to it than you know. He could be completely wrong who knows. Point is since this information is hidden from us I fail to see any point to even calling it competitive.


This is a great point. We know I'm not *completely wrong,* because of what Principal Overwatch Designer Scott Mercer has confirmed about handicapping/MMR. But we don't know exactly how right I am. I have reached several conclusions in the OP that seem likely, but cannot be certain to a scientifically-minded person based on the information available to us.

This is where the function of the poll comes in. The poll gives us a reality check on the phenomenon I have tried to describe. The vast majority of voters continue to validate it.
01/23/2018 10:01 AMPosted by Whistler
you are a small minority compared to 10's of thousands of players that experience this same exact thing.


The number is comming form where ? you choose it, you find 100 post about it on this forum and you add 000, you have the feeling it's the right number ? or may you have an official number of it, give your source.

It's not because a minority is making a lot of noise that they are in the trush and they are the majority.
It's not because a majority is telling something that they are in the trush

Without source, a number is useless.
01/24/2018 06:49 AMPosted by Faoline
The number is comming form where ? you choose it, you find 100 post about it on this forum and you add 000, you have the feeling it's the right number ? or may you have an official number of it, give your source.

It's not because a minority is making a lot of noise that they are in the trush and they are the majority.

It's not because a majority is telling something that they are in the trushWithout source, a number is useless.
Even if there were that many people complaining about it, it means nothing. Which I think is what you were saying?

Despite the fact that the forum dwellers are obviously a minority, for a long time, a lot of people thought that the world was flat. Then people provided proof that it isn't.
01/24/2018 06:49 AMPosted by Faoline
The number is comming form where ? you choose it, you find 100 post about it on this forum and you add 000, you have the feeling it's the right number ? or may you have an official number of it, give your source.
Even if there were that many people complaining about it, it means nothing. Which I think is what you were saying?

Despite the fact that the forum dwellers are obviously a minority, for a long time a lot of people thought that the world was flat. Then people provided proof that it isn't.
And what proof did you provide?
01/24/2018 07:03 AMPosted by PureRogue
And what proof did you provide?
About what?

You're the one saying it's rigged, not me. Do you understand how accusations work?

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