Why Handicapping (MMR) is Wrong for Competitive Play

Competitive Discussion
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01/26/2018 06:00 AMPosted by Hun
I want to know the college\university you went to because you lack the basic understanding of the scientific method, but talk about it as though you've gone through the whole process.


I went to York University in Toronto, Ontario. I actually graduated with a degree in English though, and I've been working as a technical writer (rather than a scientist) for the last 10 years. But I still know the difference between scientifically minded people and posers.

01/26/2018 06:00 AMPosted by Hun
Then you try to list authors that don't actually help your argument. So I'm left here thinking that you've never taken a math class or read a statistics book.


They're just a couple of non-fiction authors whose work is deeply rooted in the scientific method (Gladwell, Harris). I recommend anything they've written as an introduction to critical thinking. If you've never read any of their work, you should.

01/26/2018 06:00 AMPosted by Hun
I agree with you though only 1 part, that public schools need more funding, in math related course, so we wouldn't have people like you talking about things they don't understand.


Fine.
01/25/2018 07:15 PMPosted by Cuthbert

None of you know how to address the post I cited from Principal Overwatch Designer Scott Mercer. My argument against handicapping is based *entirely* on what Scott has said. So you pretend his statement doesn't exist?


You've been directly addressed regarding this point. I think it is you who don't know how to address it, because you've ignored every response pointing out that Mercer's quote does nothing to support your argument at all. There is nothing more to do on that topic but reiterate a demand that you cite the exact sentences you're so convinced are your proof.

01/25/2018 07:15 PMPosted by Cuthbert

Stop pretending the truth matters to you. You just don't want anyone criticizing your precious game (which by the way, is an imitation of Team Fortress 2, so not even an original). You are as unthinking as Russian spambots. (Gasp, is that who I've been arguing with this whole time?!)

[/quote]

Ah, and at last comes the "disinfo agents" accusation. I assure you, if the truth didn't matter to me I wouldn't have bothered replying in this thread in the first place.
01/25/2018 07:15 PMPosted by Cuthbert

None of you know how to address the post I cited from Principal Overwatch Designer Scott Mercer. My argument against handicapping is based *entirely* on what Scott has said. So you pretend his statement doesn't exist?


You've been directly addressed regarding this point. I think it is you who don't know how to address it, because you've ignored every response pointing out that Mercer's quote does nothing to support your argument at all. There is nothing more to do on that topic but reiterate a demand that you cite the exact sentences you're so convinced are your proof.


Hey, that's what I wanted to say! Scott Mercer's post describes a normal, non-rigged, match making system. You can't just link to it and claim that it's evidence of these nonsense conspiracy theories. Or I guess you can do that, but it's not a good argument.

There was one other thing you mentioned as evidence...

01/25/2018 07:12 PMPosted by Cuthbert
Read the section of the original post titled "evidence of handicapping."


Which is...

Evidence of handicapping
Here are three very simple things you can observe for yourself, which show how the matchmaking system handicaps your matches:

1) Group and queue for matches with other players who you know are good at Overwatch. You will see that your wait times for matches scale up in direct proportion to how good you are, and how many of you are in the group. While there are other groups available to play at your collective *SR level,* matchmaking takes time to seek a group with an equal *MMR profile.*

2) Win matches as a group, and you will see your wait times increase from match to match. Matchmaking delays your games in order to handicap them, based on your group's record. Again, there are other groups available to play at your collective *SR level,* but matchmaking takes time to seek a group with an equal *MMR profile.*

3) Note the spread of player experience (portrait color, stars) across teams, when you join matches in small groups or solo queue. You will see the teams in each game have roughly the same number of experienced and inexperienced players. The matchmaking system arranges teams this way to handicap matches.


Let's note two things here...

  • These are not pieces of evidence, they are claims. You have a degree in English, you should know the difference between those words
  • These claims are not even true, the first two have been specifically disproven.
  • I mean, for !@#$ sake two of three mention the whole SR-MMR thing. How many times have we been through this no-evidence-Cuthbert? SR isn't used in match making, I've backed that up with ACTUAL evidence. Official statements that explicitly say SR is not used in match making, and in game videos that demonstrate it.

    You've provided 0 evidence, and the only specific, falsifiable claims you've made have all ready been disproven. Your effectively plugging your ears while yelling "I'M RIGHT COMP IS RIGGED" repeatedly.

    Stop the nonsense. Record it happening in your games, or shut up. You know how ridiculous it is to continue to say something happens, but refuse to record it? Why spam this forum indefinitely, instead of just recording your games and using hard video evidence to prove us wrong?

    Oh, that's right. You can't get hard evidence because it doesn't happen.
    Friendly you ask for evidence but can you prove that the system isn't designed in this way? someone has recorded their games have you watched those already?
    01/26/2018 07:44 AMPosted by FriendlyFire
    These are not pieces of evidence, they are claims. You have a degree in English, you should know the difference between those words
    He claims to have a degree in English. Although, he probably thinks that he's provided proof already. :P
    01/26/2018 07:49 AMPosted by silvertain
    Friendly you ask for evidence but can you prove that the system isn't designed in this way? someone has recorded their games have you watched those already?


    Yes, and these posts have been filled with evidence against no-evidence-Cuthbert which he just ignores. For instance, the whole "matching does not use SR" thing that I just mentioned. I've all ready posted this stuff several times, but I'll do it again. This is important, because it is one of the cornerstones of no-evidence-Cuthbert's theory, the idea of how match making groups people with the same SR but different MMRs, but it's totally wrong.

    Official statements:

    1 - https://twitter.com/ww/status/867570441182826499
    2 - https://twitter.com/playoverwatch/status/850435344457543680?lang=en

    In game proof:

    1 - https://youtu.be/yXOwh6l8aBI?t=1m17s
    2 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZdyrUpEXRs

    Notice how this is actual evidence. Official statements that actually say what I'm claiming they say, and hard in game video.

    On a more general note, Kaawumumamba made a great post describing how the system actually works, filled with actual citations to official posts and videos demonstrating things.

    https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20761096463

    Due to the nature of how these forums work, and no-evidence-Cuthbert's obsessive spamming, this stuff gets quickly pushed down. Which is exactly what he wants. He simply ignores and buries the evidence against him, while providing no evidence to support his own claims.

    P.S. I haven't watched those games yet, I will, but I looked through the thread and at least 3 people have all ready said they show nothing at all. They claim the OP played as bad or worse than their teammates in the matches they lost. No "rigged games".
    I don't think the games are rigged to make you lose I do believe if you play well enough it will place with team mates who aren't playing so well so to give them a better chance of winning. If you have never experienced what SEEMS like a forced losing streak fair enough. There are multiple people reporting that when they are about to be promoted or reach there season high BOOM, team of clampets. I went over my season high earlier, very next game I got teamed with a Bastion that couldn't beat me as Winston in dmg we got steamrolled.

    This is not once or twice this happens its 100% every single time ...EVERY SINGLE TIME! I can say the same thing until I'm blue in the face and you will either say 'git gud' or its my fault. that match I can honestly say I could have don't no more than I did. Ofcourse I have matches where I'm terrible and ive held my hands up I know I'm not master or even diamond. But something is not right that when you get to that point you will always get teamed with the dregs.
    I had a five game win streak recently. I went from 2350 to 2475. Some of those wins were close. In some of the wins my team destroyed the enemy so bad they could not leave spawn, could not get 1% capture on KOTH, could not even make it to the first payload checkpoint when it was their turn to push but my team easily got all three.

    In some cases the enemy had a very good Diva, Mercy or McRee but the rest of their team was losing so badly that it didn't help enough and so they lost badly.

    Then suddenly after 5 wins I could not win a single match. Now I was on the team who could not leave spawn, could not capture 1% of the KOTH, and if the enemy pushed the payload to all three points then my team could not get past the first point.

    I went on a losing streak and ended losing all of the SR I had gained from the win streak and more. I ended up dropping down to 2200 before my first win.

    In those matches I played Orissa and had 4 Gold with only 6 Elims in one match and only 12 Gold elims in another. Then I tried playing Diva and had 4 Gold with only 15 Gold elims. Then I played Zen and had 4 Gold with only 12 Gold Elims.

    DPS on my team are getting way less elims than the enemy DPS.

    Is it rigged matchmaking? What is the incentive?

    They don'y want everyone climbing or everyone would hit Diamond or higher.

    In the matches we won easily everyone on my team including myself were on win streaks and teaming up together well. We were near or at our Season high.

    On the matches we lost badly all of us were on losing streaks and not teaming up well and were not close to our Season high. The enemy team who was destroying us were on winning streaks and teaming up well together. They were also near or at their Season high.

    When we were winning on win streaks we had 2 very good DPS placed on our team. When we were losing the DPS on our team were very bad but the ones on the enemy team were very good.

    So to keep you from climbing too high they can put either very good DPS on your team or very bad DPS to affect the outcome of the match in either direction.

    This way matchmaking can keep you within a certain ELO range. Let you win some easily and then lose some badly while being able to keep you within a certain range. This will especially affect you more if you Main Tanks or Support. It will affect you a lot less if you main DPS which is why most people in higher ranks main DPS and have at least one friend who also mains a DPS hero and climb together.

    The matchmaker can try to put two good DPS on the enemy to try to force a loss so you don't climb too high but since your team has a "given" good DPS because you and your friend both main DPS then the match feels more balanced and the loss streak after the win streak does not happen to them like it does to Tanks and Supports.

    So if you main DPS and have a group or at least one friend to DPS with then your chances are greatly increased to win. Another factor is how many hours have you played? If you play a lot and have not been able to climb to Diamond then do you think the system will let you go to Diamond when you have proved that you can barely get to Plat? But that is because of the data they have on you. If you open a new account and start fresh you will probably be able to hit Diamond when you have been stuck in Gold and Plat forever in your old account.
    01/26/2018 10:48 AMPosted by silvertain
    There are multiple people reporting that when they are about to be promoted or reach there season high BOOM, team of clampets.


  • Reach season high
  • Get put against the best players you've ever faced
  • Fail, and blame teammates
  • I mean, honestly, how many times have you seen someone in your own game do bad and then blame you and the rest of your team? I think we all know this happens. Some people always look for someone else to blame.

    I went over my season high earlier, very next game I got teamed with a Bastion that couldn't beat me as Winston in dmg we got steamrolled... I can say the same thing until I'm blue in the face and you will either say 'git gud' or its my fault. that match I can honestly say I could have don't no more than I did.


    Lol, this is why we want videos. To see what actually happens in these games with "team of clampets".

    Why the heck are you on winston if your teammate is bastion? Winston is considered THE main dive tank, but he is practically useless at supporting bastion. And for bastion to be effective, he really needs a main tank to be shielding him.

    Winston + Bastion is practically throwing from the pick screen. It's actually anti-synergistic. Now I don't know how the picks went down in your game, but if in one of my games we had a bastion, and our main-tank player selected winston... I wouldn't be blaming bastion for us losing.

    01/26/2018 10:55 AMPosted by Eclipse
    Is it rigged matchmaking? What is the incentive?

    They don'y want everyone climbing or everyone would hit Diamond or higher.


    ... Jesus ... I think this pretty much summarizes the mentality that generates these nonsense conspiracy theories. Reading it also made me far less confident that you people can learn how things really work.

    Stop everyone from climbing to diamond? You realize everyone can't climb to diamond, right? Every game you win and climb, someone else loses and drops. Diamond is for above-average players. Everyone can't be above average. Half of all players will always be below average, this is basic logic.

    Do you have no idea what a ranking system is? SR isn't like your WoW characters level that you just grind up. It's a ranking against other people.

    This is just total ignorance to what a rank in a game even means.
    I did not mean literally "everyone". You know what I mean. Obviously this would not include new players who have never played the game before and don't know what they are doing.

    I was talking about players whom I have mentioned before who have hundreds of hours in this game and have at least three heroes they can flex to and play well with depending on the counters and team comp.

    For example, why can I as a low Gold player group up with one friend who is in Mid Diamond and go on a 10 game win streak where I die less than three times, have highest elims and damage, get end of game card and nobody is accusing me of being carried. In fact they ask me why am I in Gold? They ask that because I play on their level which is high plat to low diamond.

    I know others have experienced this as well. Where a Silver or Gold player can win match after match against an enemy team who are two Ranks higher than they are and who are about 700 SR higher than them and where they are not being boosted but just playing with a real friend or relative.

    Even if I can play at the Diamond level that is still not good enough to carry 5 Gold players who are losing because the enemy team are playing at a higher level than us because it was one of those 'unwinnable' matches.

    But that is not the case in every match. Like I said, I will get a great team and go on a win streak and then the enemy will get the good team and we lose and that can happen several matches in a row. Unless I am playing at GM level I will not be good enough to win those unwinnable matches.

    Even Blizz admits there are unwinnable matches. They don't say if you are better than the other 11 people then you will win.

    That is what I am talking about.
    I went Winston because they had a zen and widow and genji we had an orisa guarding bastion, I'm not an idiot I realise certain chars need certain team comps what would you have suggested I pick?. The fact our main source of dmg (Bastion) was doing zero dmg is why we lost so yes in this instance I can 100% blame my team mate.
    01/26/2018 11:21 AMPosted by Eclipse
    I did not mean literally "everyone". You know what I mean.


    Okay, well you said everyone, but I think I get what you mean now, and I still think you have a misconception.

    A rank is essentially a percentile of players. In general, you cannot win games and climb into diamond without making some other diamond player lose, and fall into platinum. It's not quite 1-to-1, your winning game won't always have someone on the other team fall into plat, but that's how the system works overall. If you are now in the top 15% of players, or whatever diamond is, someone else no longer is.

    Even if I can play at the Diamond level that is still not good enough to carry 5 players who play at Silver or Bronze


    Just to be clear, diamond level play is absolutely good enough to carry in silver/bronze. In fact, there is a thread right now complaing about even plat-level smurfs at these ranks ( https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20760997474 )

    They are complaining for a reason, these players can dominate the game and make it unfun.

    01/26/2018 11:21 AMPosted by Eclipse
    Even Blizz admits there are unwinnable matches. They don't say if you are better than the other 11 people then you will win.


    Blizz says they occasionally cannot make a well balanced match. Note this is VERY different than them intentionally making a rigged match to hold players down. Also note they adjust SR/MMR changes in these situations. You lose very little for losing an unfair game.

    01/26/2018 11:21 AMPosted by Eclipse
    For example, why can I as a low Gold player group up with one friend who is in Mid Diamond and go on a 10 game win streak where I die less than three times, have highest elims and damage, get end of game card and nobody is accusing me of being carried. In fact they ask me why am I in Gold? They ask that because I play on their level which is high plat to low diamond.


    Yeah, I'm not trying to be mean, but all I have to say to this is "cool story bro". If you really play so well, you should be able to crush gold games and climb ezpz. If your teammates are actually holding you down, video the proof and show us.

    It's really easy to "do well" if your team is winning, like if your diamond buddy is carrying your team by getting a first pick every fight, giving you a big advantage that lets you clean up a bunch of easy kills.
    01/26/2018 07:23 AMPosted by Arzoo
    Ah, and at last comes the "disinfo agents" accusation. I assure you, if the truth didn't matter to me I wouldn't have bothered replying in this thread in the first place.


    Have you read through the replies to any of my threads? This is the *first* thing that the skeptics of my argument called me. So I'm throwing it back in your face. See how it feels.
    01/26/2018 08:02 AMPosted by FriendlyFire
    Official statements:

    1 - https://twitter.com/ww/status/867570441182826499
    2 - https://twitter.com/playoverwatch/status/850435344457543680?lang=en


    These Twitter posts have nothing to do with my argument, or the handicapping system that Principal Designer Scott Mercer has described. Stop posting them here.
    01/26/2018 12:38 PMPosted by Cuthbert
    These Twitter posts have nothing to do with my argument, or the handicapping system that Principal Designer Scott Mercer has described. Stop posting them here.


  • Stop lying about Scott Mercers post, it says nothing like that. If you disagree, quote where he says anything is handicapped (you can't of course, because it doesn't).
  • Delete all the lies in your original post related to SR being used for match making, and I'll stop posting those tweets. Until then, they are relevant.
  • Post a video of your claims happening in game, or admit you're lying. Why would you not simply record what you say happens and show us we are wrong? Because you can't record it, because you are making it up.
  • Someone with brain cells: "You have no evidence for your claims that the MM system handicaps you".

    Cuthbert: "Yes I do all you have to do is read through the maze of misinformation that I've misinterpreted to see that my conspiracy theory is correct".

    Another person with brain cells: "But you're talking about a statistical system with algorithms that handicaps its players. Wouldn't you need numbers and evidence to back up your claims"?

    Cuthbert: "Why do I need that? All I need to do is take developer statements out of context and use my 3rd grade intellect to erroneously analyze that information so I can feel better about my self when I bump my threads every day to maintain interest in a topic in which nobody with a brain cell cares about".

    Yet another person with brain cells: "So you're admitting that you don't have a point at all or evidence to support it"?

    Cuthbert: "Yes I do all you have to do is read my responses to people who ask me for evidence which tells them that the only evidence I need for my claims is the verbal diarrhea I spew that contains no actual evidence while I claim victory over them."
    The precise way in which this post explains my Overwatch competitive experience cannot be coincidence. It sounds like conspiracy, but suddenly everything makes sense. I dunno, I'll keep this in mind but take it with a grain of salt.
    So you agree in Handicaping in that a smurf can change the outcome of the match. What if the system knows who the high MMR player is and puts them on the enemy team while your team have low MMR DPS. The system can use this to calculate who is more likely to win or lose based on the DPS hidden skill (MMR).

    If it thinks you belong higher then you get a streak of matches with the high MMR dps players. If it thinks you need to be lower then it can put those high MMR skilled DPS on the enemy team. Thats why the vast majority of players are stuck in what they call ELO hell.

    I think a lot of these complaints come from Tank and Support mains who count on the DPS to get elims. The system can give you a good DPS player or a bad one and thus give you a greater chance at winning or losing which has nothing to do with how good a healer or tank you are.

    I have seen matches where an entire team of high skilled MMR dps players won with no healers or tanks against an enemy team who did have healers and tanks.

    I agree with you that a smurf can carry if he is a DPS smurf. I play Tanks and Healers. So if I am in a Diamond match and am healing good or tanking good then I can rely on the DPS on my team to be skilled enough to make it an even match.

    In the last match there was a Widow in low Gold who got triple headshots in practically every kill cam. Clearly a smurf who was being pocketed by a shield tank and healer. If you went outside out of cover of shield or wall you got instantly killed and were unable to dodge it by random movements. Not to mention being shot at by the rest of the enemy team.

    Those shield tanks and healers are winning because of that Widow carry. In Diamond though there would be an equally good Widow who can keep her in check. So now its a more balanced match. You won't see that in Gold. Either both Widows are terrible or one is carrying and the other is making us lose.

    In Gold you can be the best healer or tank in the world but if your DPS are not getting elims and just dying constantly you will lose no matter how good a tank or healer you are.

    Whenever I try to DPS I am forcing some other DPS to play healer or tank who does not know how to do those roles. I don't get heals and I don't get pocketed and the tanks are playing like DPS, out of position, feeding the enemy ULTs so they end up having one ULT after the next and we lose.

    I think others know what I am talking about when a DPS main tries to play a healer or tank. Likewise, when a support main who never plays DPS tries to go McRee or Hanzo and gets killed too much thinking they will get healed but the DPS healer is just not as good as them in the healing department.
    01/26/2018 12:48 PMPosted by FriendlyFire
    Stop lying about Scott Mercers post, it says nothing like that.


    Does a single word of that post describe anything *other* than a handicapping system to you? What do you even think Scott is talking about there?

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