Why Handicapping (MMR) is Wrong for Competitive Play

Competitive Discussion
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01/28/2018 05:38 PMPosted by Cuthbert
01/28/2018 10:33 AMPosted by pootflute
Raw stats don't necessarily translate to playing well, and the concept of PBSR incentivizes favoring stats over playing smart. It means more people pick dps and constantly charge in regardless of what the team is doing, so they can get gold dmg and elims. At the same time you may be forced to play support for 4 dps, putting you in a situation where you are unlikely to have great stats no matter how well you play.

Maybe that isn't even how PBSR works, but what matters is how people think it works. That alone is extremely detrimental to matchmaking. It gives people a reason not to fill out a reasonable team composition.


That's right.


Do you just like quoting people that are completely wrong? I wasn't going to talk about your English degree, but I'm not sure if you're trying to be malicious because it honestly seems so.

I knew you had an English degree months back, how? The way you write and respond. You write with so much emotional intelligence, but you lack logical intelligence. The problem with that is, you think you're logical, but you're not. You haven't proven anything in a scientific way, but you write as though you have.

I'm not sure what the requirements for a liberal arts degree at York are, but it must not be very high if you haven't taken a statistics class. What's the highest level of math that you've accomplished? Just post some actual evidence and not emotional evidence of people saying so.
MMR exists for two reasons. Placement matches and decay. You will usually get placed with players who have the same SR as you anyways. They do not want Bronze players ending up in GM games during placements and they don't want a Top 10 player who decayed down to Diamond destroying Diamond players. MMR is a good system and there is no reason to remove it.
01/28/2018 07:03 PMPosted by tawT
01/27/2018 10:00 PMPosted by Kaawumba

So, sorry, no evidence of handicapping or rigging. However, it is pointing to one of Blizzard's questionable decisions, which has since been corrected.


That is a poor analysis you give there.

First of all I'd noticed the effect for some time before I started logging the data it was not in the beginning of the season wich you assumed without reason).
EDIT: The word "placements" are in there - but they were not *my* placements.
Secondly you forget the almost complete lack of "Team Higher SR" persists through the entire dataset.
Thirdly, you assume our situations are the same - wich it may not be.

My claim still stands.


You seem confused about my discussion of early season vs late season, so let's just drop it. The key here is whether or not the effect persists in season 6+. Do you have any more recent data (since you apparently don't trust mine)?
I'm saying our situations might be different is all - your SR and MMR might be synced.

Mine - over 130+ games werent, and it led to me not enjoying the game because the game insisted i play with lower ranked people ALL THE TIME.

I just want the game to believe i deserve my current rank at all times and just stop giving me help or hindering me. And at the very least give me the damned info so i can know what the hell is going on. I don't even need to know the mmr of other people just my own and how i compare to the average player at my SR...

Like this for instance: Your MMR for Volskaya is xxx and the average player has yyy mmr here. (i assume it tracks the maps separately, and damned volskaya - my nemesis...)
01/28/2018 07:44 PMPosted by Shadow
MMR exists for two reasons. Placement matches and decay. You will usually get placed with players who have the same SR as you anyways. They do not want Bronze players ending up in GM games during placements and they don't want a Top 10 player who decayed down to Diamond destroying Diamond players. MMR is a good system and there is no reason to remove it.


I feel like both of those problems can be fixed without creating a hidden rubber band threshold.
01/28/2018 08:11 PMPosted by Obelisk
01/28/2018 07:44 PMPosted by Shadow
MMR exists for two reasons. Placement matches and decay. You will usually get placed with players who have the same SR as you anyways. They do not want Bronze players ending up in GM games during placements and they don't want a Top 10 player who decayed down to Diamond destroying Diamond players. MMR is a good system and there is no reason to remove it.


I feel like both of those problems can be fixed without creating a hidden rubber band threshold.


There is no rubber band. Playing better leads to higher rank and more skilled teammates/opponents.
01/28/2018 11:36 PMPosted by Arzoo
01/28/2018 08:11 PMPosted by Obelisk
...

I feel like both of those problems can be fixed without creating a hidden rubber band threshold.


There is no rubber band. Playing better leads to higher rank and more skilled teammates/opponents.


Nope in most cases it's getting teammates so beaten by the system and all the consistent losses they just don't care anymore. As a support main you pretty much know what your team is doing all the time. We are in the back most the time so I can tell if the other team is not putting out enough damage by the rate of healing I'm putting out. I can tell if our team is not putting enough damage out by watching the other team sustain. I know what medals/statistics I'll expect to get at the end of the round with any given hero I play. When it all becomes inconsistent I can tell right away what the cause is. When I start rolling 4 gold medals playing Ana there is a definite problem with the team comp, or the team's chemistry, or lack of game sense/tactics. In some cases I've experienced forced winning streaks.. Games where the enemy team is so uncoordinated that 2 people on your team could be AFK and still win. Then there is the losing streaks games where you get teammates that don't use the Comms, OTP's, Trolls, De-Rankers, Toxics, Etc.. You name it.. When it rains in this game it pours and you my friend are sitting in the middle of a wide open field with no shelter..
There is no reason whatsoever to have performance based SR on ANY rank as long as there is no role que and people are forced to flex on roles they're not comfortable with. Hence the stubborn one trick revolution that came from it.
01/29/2018 05:39 AMPosted by kiesu
There is no reason whatsoever to have performance based SR on ANY rank as long as there is no role que and people are forced to flex on roles they're not comfortable with. Hence the stubborn one trick revolution that came from it.


Yeah, well said.
01/29/2018 09:07 AMPosted by Cuthbert
01/29/2018 05:39 AMPosted by kiesu
There is no reason whatsoever to have performance based SR on ANY rank as long as there is no role que and people are forced to flex on roles they're not comfortable with. Hence the stubborn one trick revolution that came from it.


Yeah, well said.


Precisely why role queue needs to be introduced. In a team game where certain positions are vital for victory; it's unfathomable that the system expects players to play for the team, instead for themselves. Which is what everyone is naturally doing, and will only continue to do until role queue is introduced.

This a a moba/fps hybrid, let's start making it work as it's intended.

That or actually introduce some form of in-built synergy for team comps. Say teams with 5 dps, get a healing debuff, that reduces healing received or something. If you're too stubborn to add role queue, at least address the issue.

Games should not be decided in the hero select room, having uncooperative teammates should not instantly lead to a loss.
01/29/2018 09:07 AMPosted by Cuthbert
01/29/2018 05:39 AMPosted by kiesu
There is no reason whatsoever to have performance based SR on ANY rank as long as there is no role que and people are forced to flex on roles they're not comfortable with. Hence the stubborn one trick revolution that came from it.


Yeah, well said.

Are you going to respond to Hun? Ofcourse not.
A lot of this goes over my head. Here is what I observe. Not sure if this implies Matchmaking Handicap or not.

Lets say you have 1000 players with an SR of Gold 2300. Let's say to make this simpler the Matchmaker only put you in Matches where everyone on your team and the enemy team were all pulled from these 1000 players all of whom are Gold SR 2300.

Here is a thought. Some of these players who are currently Gold 2300 used to be in Diamond a week ago but have been on a major losing streak. Some of them used to be in Silver a week ago but are on a major win streak. Some of them are new and just got placed in Gold 2300 and some have been staying in Gold 2300 for months.

Now out of this the random factors that we do not know about are whether are not the Diamond player is losing on purpose and then when he gets to Gold 2300 he tries to win. We also don't know if the Silver person was being carried through most of his matches and will perform at Silver or Bronze level in a Gold 2300 match or if he was badly misplaced and should be in Plat or Diamond. More randomness is how many of the 1000 pool of Gold 2300 players are Smurfs and how many of them get into your match who are paying to be boosted which means that Gold 2300 player is playing at GM Top 500 skill level.

How does the matchmaker reconcile all of this to make the match fair? It basically can't in most cases because it does not know when a player will be toxic and throw the match, or when a losing account in the next match is getting boosted by a top 500 GM player, or when the Diamond player is losing on purpose by not trying hard or is losing because he was badly misplaced and should be in Silver and starts winning more when he gets closer to low Gold/High Silver.

Just some things I have thought about.
01/29/2018 11:20 AMPosted by tnucreggin
Are you going to respond to Hun? Ofcourse not.


What would you like me to reply to, specifically?
Still spamming this thread no-evidence-Cuthbert? Let me try explaining it another way.

Match making does try to make 50% balanced games, as you said, and as you would want from any coherent match making system. The key point here is it makes a 50% game given the assumption you are accurately ranked. Are you a lower rank than you deserve? Then you should unbalance the game in your teams favor. Thus you win more (not every game) and your rank climbs.

Specifically, it balances the games on MMR. And if your SR somehow got much lower than your MMR (which Cuth likes to think happens a lot more than it does), we all know your SR would rapidly catch up to it, even with a 50% win-rate, due to SR bonuses. This has been thoroughly demonstrated.

If you are stuck at 50% win-rate, all that means in the match maker has found your real rank. Where you belong, based on your current play. It's not complicated. You just have to drop the delusion that you are special and the system is working against you.
The problem is that Blizzard needs this game to make money. And they way they do that, among other things, is e-sports. So they use their ability for controlling matchmaking to their advantage, to provide what they consider entertainment which they can sell for e-sports. They rig the game, not so that one team wins or loses, but in an attempt to draw views and make money. Good for them, bad for us.

At the same time, though, it won't change. Blizzard made a bad PR mistake by having so much dev and player interaciton. Jeff became more like "my buddy that works at blizzard!" and was probably too proactive and too friendly to the community, which in turn, created a feeling of entitlement and an emotional attachment to a game we felt like we had some input on.

However-Jeff answers to the shareholders. Period. All the attention paid to early fan base was a mistake. It's been fixed now, but that means most of Overwatchs early adopters who felt like they had a stake in the game's future, feel betrayed. I doubt they will do it again.

I digress. You obviously don't like this game, or rather, what it has become. Neither do I, which I way I don't play it anymore. There are a lot of good games out there, and you will probably be happier playing one of them.
01/29/2018 02:18 PMPosted by ikt
They rig the game, not so that one team wins or loses, but in an attempt to draw views and make money. Good for them, bad for us.


They rig comp queue games to draw views and make money? This makes no sense. Blizzard isn't profiting off competitive queue game viewership, which is non-existent.

Are you saying they rig OWL instead?
01/29/2018 02:25 PMPosted by FriendlyFire
01/29/2018 02:18 PMPosted by ikt
They rig the game, not so that one team wins or loses, but in an attempt to draw views and make money. Good for them, bad for us.


They rig comp queue games to draw views and make money? This makes no sense. Blizzard isn't profiting off competitive queue game viewership, which is non-existent.

Are you saying they rig OWL instead?


well it has to serve some purpose.
01/29/2018 02:25 PMPosted by FriendlyFire

They rig comp queue games to draw views and make money? This makes no sense. Blizzard isn't profiting off competitive queue game viewership, which is non-existent.

Are you saying they rig OWL instead?


well it has to serve some purpose.


What, specifically, has to serve a purpose? Competitive queues purpose is for players to enjoy themselves in it.

Are you talking about the "rigging" of comp have a purpose? Because this leads to a good point: there is no purpose to them rigging comp. Like the "flat earth theory" it's a conspiracy with no coherent motivation.
01/29/2018 02:38 PMPosted by ikt
01/29/2018 02:25 PMPosted by FriendlyFire
...

They rig comp queue games to draw views and make money? This makes no sense. Blizzard isn't profiting off competitive queue game viewership, which is non-existent.

Are you saying they rig OWL instead?


well it has to serve some purpose.

"It has to serve some purpose so I'm going to make one up and pretend it makes sense".

Nice.
01/29/2018 12:23 PMPosted by Eclipse

How does the matchmaker reconcile all of this to make the match fair? It basically can't in most cases because it does not know when a player will be toxic and throw the match, or when a losing account in the next match is getting boosted by a top 500 GM player, or when the Diamond player is losing on purpose by not trying hard or is losing because he was badly misplaced and should be in Silver and starts winning more when he gets closer to low Gold/High Silver.

Just some things I have thought about.


It handicaps the matches. If your MMR is lower or higher than your SR it puts you in matches that maatches your MMR rather than your SR.

The diamond gets to play people that are typically closer to Diamond, the carried silver gets to play people who are typically closer to silver. Unless the queue times are too long in wich case it gives up and just starts some match. Se my post above for data.
Since the matchmaker tries to make every team have a 50% chance of winning it follows that the Lower MMR than SR gets to have easier matches than the average MMR 2,3kSR player and the higher MMR than SR gets to have harder matches than the average MMR 2,3kSR player.
Hence the handicapping/meddling claim - it's not fair, it's unfair.

It also hits the SR gains and losses to push people in a direction. Performance based SR.
Blizzard has already admitted through the new no-pbsr in diamond and above that PBSR is a problem for team play - let's hope they do it for the 75% of players who are not in diamond and above.

EVIDENCE 2:
PBSR is in itself evidence for handicapping as the SR gains or losses try to bring the SR in line with MMR.

The MM should just believe in your SR and leave it at that.
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Furthermore, I think that Carthage must be destroyed.

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