Why Handicapping (MMR) is Wrong for Competitive Play

Competitive Discussion
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02/04/2018 08:43 AMPosted by ForceComdr
A Better counter argument against the OP would be to point out how the MMR system improves the game, seeing as the entire crux of his post is how it hurts it.

Examples have been given of how it hurts the game; but most people who disagree do everything except point out how it helps or makes the game better.


The fact is, Blizzard have backed themselves into a position they can't defend. They've created and advertised Overwatch as a competitive game, but it is ostensibly *handicapped* and non-competitive.

This is the consequence of bad decisions from intellectual cowards in positions of corporate power with Blizzard...marketing executives who pretend to be game designers.
I would think that 700 posts in this thread would warrant a Blue post response...
02/05/2018 06:38 AMPosted by Cuthbert
02/04/2018 12:17 PMPosted by SpaceCat
OPs argument in a nutshell:

I've flipped this coin 1000 times and it's at 50% for both heads and tails.

The only way this can happen is a) if the coin is equally weighted (reality, obvious to most) or b) there is some artificial mechanism making it trend to heads when tails has shown up more often and vice versa (conspiracy, delusion).

And he chooses b.

A slightly convoluted version of gambler's fallacy, nonetheless completely ridiculous.


What a stupid false equivalency.

Aka he accurately outlined your delusional conspiracy theory and you erroneously believe you can dismiss and defeat his argument with a sentence fragment.
02/05/2018 06:58 AMPosted by HotBBQ88
I would think that 700 posts in this thread would warrant a Blue post response...


If you count the other threads that reached their post limit for comments, it's over 1,700 posts without a response from Blizzard. I also reached out to Scott Mercer and Jeff Kaplan about this topic in other threads where they are actively posting, and got no reply.

To be fair, I'm not sure what response they *can* make to this. Nothing short of a matchmaking design overhaul would fit the bill. That involves admitting fault, and then doing a lot of rework. But rework is often what it takes to make something better.
02/05/2018 06:57 AMPosted by Cuthbert
02/04/2018 08:43 AMPosted by ForceComdr
A Better counter argument against the OP would be to point out how the MMR system improves the game, seeing as the entire crux of his post is how it hurts it.

Examples have been given of how it hurts the game; but most people who disagree do everything except point out how it helps or makes the game better.


The fact is, Blizzard have backed themselves into a position they can't defend. They've created and advertised Overwatch as a competitive game, but it is ostensibly *handicapped* and non-competitive.

This is the consequence of bad decisions from intellectual cowards in positions of corporate power with Blizzard...marketing executives who pretend to be game designers.


It's kinda hypocritical that you talk about game designer when I bet you've never tried creating a game. Balance match making does not equal handicapping, but somehow you're such a brute that can't calculate simple math.

This is why we have an epidemic of under educated individuals in the fields of math and science. When we get people with English degrees trying to talk about things they don't even understand.

I think we should stop wasting our time trying to logically convince Cuthbert and his conspiracy theorists. I didn't think a group of people could be so ignorant to make such claims without posting 1 video.

As ignorant as you guys are, I have no clue what you have against unbiased video data. It's so simple and easy to produce, but you guys constantly want to decline to post your gameplay.
02/05/2018 07:05 AMPosted by Cuthbert
02/05/2018 06:58 AMPosted by HotBBQ88
I would think that 700 posts in this thread would warrant a Blue post response...


If you count the other threads that reached their post limit for comments, it's over 1,700 posts without a response from Blizzard. I also reached out to Scott Mercer and Jeff Kaplan about this topic in other threads where they are actively posting, and got no reply.

To be fair, I'm not sure what response they *can* make to this. Nothing short of a matchmaking design overhaul would fit the bill. That involves admitting fault, and then doing a lot of rework. But rework is often what it takes to make something better.


They have.

10/31/2017 09:29 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
10/31/2017 09:25 AMPosted by Hun
Can you address "rigged MMR SYSTEM" please. Too many people crying over the system is out to get them.
It's not. Stop being so paranoid.

Addressed.


https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20759240215?page=9#post-164
Here you go:

10/31/2017 09:29 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
10/31/2017 09:25 AMPosted by Hun
Can you address "rigged MMR SYSTEM" please. Too many people crying over the system is out to get them.
It's not. Stop being so paranoid.

Addressed.


(quote="207576722816")(quote="207577522547")Can you address "rigged MMR SYSTEM" please. Too many people crying over the system is out to get them.(/quote)It's not. Stop being so paranoid.

Addressed.(/quote)

Replace () with []

You can quote locked blue threads by view source (ctrl-u on chrome) and finding the data-topic-post id of the post in question.
02/05/2018 07:05 AMPosted by Cuthbert
02/05/2018 06:58 AMPosted by HotBBQ88
I would think that 700 posts in this thread would warrant a Blue post response...


If you count the other threads that reached their post limit for comments, it's over 1,700 posts without a response from Blizzard. I also reached out to Scott Mercer and Jeff Kaplan about this topic in other threads where they are actively posting, and got no reply.

To be fair, I'm not sure what response they *can* make to this. Nothing short of a matchmaking design overhaul would fit the bill. That involves admitting fault, and then doing a lot of rework. But rework is often what it takes to make something better.


You don't realize it, but you are a forum troll. The reason you get so many replies is 1 of 2 reasons.
1. You piss off rational people shocked by the fact that you and others can believe this nonsense
2. You pick up niave and ignorant individuals who are feeling the same ignorant thoughts as yourself.

I have said this before, blizzard has nothing to gain by acknowledging the existence of delusional and ignorant thought processes. As has been demonstrated by this thread, reason and knowledge do not affect your wayward opinions, and you are only reinforced by likeminded individuals.
02/05/2018 07:05 AMPosted by Cuthbert
...

If you count the other threads that reached their post limit for comments, it's over 1,700 posts without a response from Blizzard. I also reached out to Scott Mercer and Jeff Kaplan about this topic in other threads where they are actively posting, and got no reply.

To be fair, I'm not sure what response they *can* make to this. Nothing short of a matchmaking design overhaul would fit the bill. That involves admitting fault, and then doing a lot of rework. But rework is often what it takes to make something better.


They have.

Posted by Jeff Kaplan
...

It's not. Stop being so paranoid.

Addressed.


I'm not able to format that properly because the post limit was reached and I can't quote it.
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20759240215?page=9#post-164


lol I take my previous comment back. He did address this
If you understand probability and statistics, you listen to Kaawuumba.

If you want to blame your teammates, you listen to Cuthbert.

Decisions, decisions.
The reason you don't get a blue response is the same reason that flat earthers don't get much more than a /facepalm from rational people.

You are literally delusional, and nothing anyone can say will help you with that.

You farm posts from rational people who just /facepalm you and you farm posts from delusional lunatics like yourself who can't accept they could be the reason they are stuck at their rank. None of that warrants a scientific explanation which you will (and have) flat out reject.

It's kind of hilarious in a way. Just kind of though.

It's not fully hilarious because THIS type of reasoning is exactly what causes toxicity in matchmaking.

"I'm the only real person here. These other 11 people are here to make me fail/succeed based on...reasons. Since I'm the only real person here, yet can't factor into the outcome, I can be a complete suck to these other 11 bots, and mostly the bots on my team."

It's laughable but only as an outsider.
02/03/2018 11:22 AMPosted by tawT
well *something* is wrong, the removal of performance based SR is proof of that in some way. That and the frustrating randomness of the people you get to play with...


What do you mean by the "removal" of performance-based SR? It's still part of the game, no?
02/06/2018 01:30 PMPosted by Cuthbert
What do you mean by the "removal" of performance-based SR? It's still part of the game, no?
It's removed for diamond and above.

It's obvious as to why it remains for players below diamond, but maybe you can make up some absurd reason as to why it shouldn't, find a blue post that doesn't back up your opinion, claim it does, and go make another 700 page thread about it.
02/07/2018 06:29 AMPosted by Applesoup
02/06/2018 01:30 PMPosted by Cuthbert
What do you mean by the "removal" of performance-based SR? It's still part of the game, no?
It's removed for diamond and above.

It's obvious as to why it remains for players below diamond, but maybe you can make up some absurd reason as to why it shouldn't, find a blue post that doesn't back up your opinion, claim it does, and go make another 700 page thread about it.


Diamond and above is 13% of the player base if i'm not mistaken. Divided over 3 brackets.
I really doubt that the match making system can work its magic with so few players. But when you take silver, gold and plat where the vast majority players are... well you get a lot of working material for creating whatever kind of matches you want.
No matter how fair the game mode in itself can potentially be, players get toxic because that's a team game where your efforts are not meaningful unless you are really above your rank. But if you are above your rank, you need to climb, right? The point is the game does a poor job at placing people where they actually belong, which is lower than they are and in the same time it rewards high ranked players with more cp and fancy badges. Add reputation grinding and general ignorance to the mix and you get the worst multiplayer experience one can get.
I hope one day Blizzard decides to fix these fundamental issues by:
1) Making rank mocking and bragging a reportable offence
2) Making badges feel more blend and less meaningful. And make rank icons and SR stats a thing that you can hide in the settings.
3) Remove cp from competitive mode and/or add them to another mode.

Since then competitive will feel immature, toxic and will always be a mixed pot of tryhards and casuals who ended up in the wrong game mode. Since then don't waste your time in these salty forums and try to avoid competitive if you have alternatives.
10/31/2017 09:29 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
10/31/2017 09:25 AMPosted by Hun
Can you address "rigged MMR SYSTEM" please. Too many people crying over the system is out to get them.
It's not. Stop being so paranoid.

Addressed.
02/05/2018 07:23 AMPosted by Hun
02/05/2018 06:57 AMPosted by Cuthbert
...

The fact is, Blizzard have backed themselves into a position they can't defend. They've created and advertised Overwatch as a competitive game, but it is ostensibly *handicapped* and non-competitive.

This is the consequence of bad decisions from intellectual cowards in positions of corporate power with Blizzard...marketing executives who pretend to be game designers.


It's kinda hypocritical that you talk about game designer when I bet you've never tried creating a game. Balance match making does not equal handicapping, but somehow you're such a brute that can't calculate simple math.

This is why we have an epidemic of under educated individuals in the fields of math and science. When we get people with English degrees trying to talk about things they don't even understand.

I think we should stop wasting our time trying to logically convince Cuthbert and his conspiracy theorists. I didn't think a group of people could be so ignorant to make such claims without posting 1 video.

As ignorant as you guys are, I have no clue what you have against unbiased video data. It's so simple and easy to produce, but you guys constantly want to decline to post your gameplay.


this is the guy that told me that I am toxic lol. yet his post is filled with insults.
strange, since he is on a blizzard payroll to troll the forums
This explains why the last 6-10 games I've played have had me at triple gold medals and still losing because the "worst" player is always deranking/throwing/trolling. Essentially, my stats are high, but his are low (on purpose), so we're drawn together.

Nice, Thanks Blizzard.

My "group account" hovers around 2900-3200, my "solo" account hovers around 2200-2400. Stats are identical, minus win percentages and total hours played. I don't play with the same group or the same one hero/role every time on my group account, so I doubt I'm being carried.
02/07/2018 07:30 AMPosted by Bear
This explains why the last 6-10 games I've played have had me at triple gold medals and still losing because the "worst" player is always deranking/throwing/trolling. Essentially, my stats are high, but his are low (on purpose), so we're drawn together.

Nice, Thanks Blizzard.


MEDALS - GOLD 110
GAMES PLAYED 164

Most played heroes:
McCree (DPS) - 12 Hrs
Moira (Support) - 7 Hrs

You main the two heroes in the game who have some of the highest gold medal potential, yet you could only get 110 medals in 164 games, yet you're boasting about high stats and 2-3 medals when you couldn't even get any gold medals in a good portion of your games at all?

For example, filtering on just McCree, these are your stats:

GAMES PLAYED 67
MEDALS - GOLD 37

You have no golds at all in almost HALF your games. Who are you trying to fool?

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