Why Handicapping (MMR) is Wrong for Competitive Play

Competitive Discussion
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02/13/2018 06:57 AMPosted by Provoxin
I was replying to you saying that Blizzard marks you as conspiracy theorists, responding that they would be 100% correct in calling you conspiracy theorists.


That's a lie. Blizzard has never responded to this thread, or called me a conspiracy theorist. Blizzard cannot deny my claims, because they are based on disclosures from Overwatch's own game designers.
02/13/2018 06:57 AMPosted by Provoxin
I was replying to you saying that Blizzard marks you as conspiracy theorists, responding that they would be 100% correct in calling you conspiracy theorists.


That's a lie. Blizzard has never responded to this thread, or called me a conspiracy theorist. Blizzard cannot deny my claims, because they are all based on disclosures from Overwatch's own game designers.


Your claims come from willful misinterpretations of Blizzard statements, especially the Scott Mercer reply to another player asking about messed up solo/group mixes in a set of games.
02/13/2018 05:38 AMPosted by tetsu
Messing with the natural flow of things is an evil thing, the universe never needed help, especially not from arrogant video-game developers.


That's how I feel about it too. Handicapping Competitive Overwatch adds disharmony to the world.
02/13/2018 06:57 AMPosted by Provoxin
If the issue made me uncomfortable, I wouldn't have replied at all. I was replying to you saying that Blizzard marks you as conspiracy theorists, responding that they would be 100% correct in calling you conspiracy theorists.


How are you not understanding this? I'll be careful to spell this out to you.

Calling someone a name or labeling them a false title that you know they aren't because you lack sufficient evidence to back your claim is called an ad hominem.

Once again, Blizzard at best could call me incorrect but calling me a "conspiracy theorist" would only make them look guilty. Like I said before it's called deflection.

We're done here.
02/12/2018 06:00 PMPosted by S23
Here we are, current season, you have reached a career high, have hung there for a bit, guess what happens next in this pattern? Start playing some longer sessions, flex a little, you'll see the pattern reveal itself again.


I was wondering if you could look at my stats and tell me what you see. I'd be interested to know.

I've been doing an "experiment" if you will. I've started today and I'll let you know my results in one weeks time.

Here's my experiment:
Everyday for one week play 10 matches. (Quick Play) (I may consider Competitive as well)
Write down the Win to Lose ratio.
See if my list truly reflects the "win percentage," from inside Overwatch in the Career Options menu.
if Handicapping (MMR) is Wrong for Competitive Play, I don't wanna be right!
02/13/2018 06:00 PMPosted by CrackmanDan
02/12/2018 06:00 PMPosted by S23
Here we are, current season, you have reached a career high, have hung there for a bit, guess what happens next in this pattern? Start playing some longer sessions, flex a little, you'll see the pattern reveal itself again.


I was wondering if you could look at my stats and tell me what you see. I'd be interested to know.

I've been doing an "experiment" if you will. I've started today and I'll let you know my results in one weeks time.

Here's my experiment:
Everyday for one week play 10 matches. (Quick Play) (I may consider Competitive as well)
Write down the Win to Lose ratio.
See if my list truly reflects the "win percentage," from inside Overwatch in the Career Options menu.


Good experiment, please only do competitive though (as nothing else is relevant in this thread, and it allows you to assess the games better). I recommend you note the following factors:

1. Blue SR/Red SR
2. Your SR at start of game
3. Character chosen and why - did you chose 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th or last?
4. Any leavers, or super over-the-top throwers, and which side they were on
5. How many players changed characters, and were you one of them?

Then, if you are good to take a few moments after the round has ended, reflect and answer these questions:

1. Who was the best red player?
2. Who was the best blue player?
3. What was the tactic your team used? Was it suitable?
4. What was the tactic the other side used? Was it suitable?

It'd be good as well if you could do this for 10 days. That would be a clean 100 games, which makes all the stats easier for people to digest.
02/13/2018 10:44 AMPosted by Quarters
Your claims come from willful misinterpretations of Blizzard statements, especially the Scott Mercer reply to another player asking about messed up solo/group mixes in a set of games.


My argument does not misinterpret Mercer's words. Overwatch's own developers have told us that they are using Match Making Rating to handicap Competitive Games. That is unnacceptable. You are defending the wrong position.
02/13/2018 05:51 PMPosted by CrackmanDan
Calling someone a name or labeling them a false title that you know they aren't because you lack sufficient evidence to back your claim is called an ad hominem.


That's right! Let's all keep our sticks on the ice.
02/13/2018 06:03 PMPosted by Tactician
if Handicapping (MMR) is Wrong for Competitive Play, I don't wanna be right!


That's fair! Some players have an interest in the handicapping of competitive play, especially new players. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But I would like us to act on the poll results, and the polls still indicate that handicapping is in disfavor with the majority.
02/13/2018 10:41 AMPosted by Cuthbert
02/13/2018 06:57 AMPosted by Provoxin
I was replying to you saying that Blizzard marks you as conspiracy theorists, responding that they would be 100% correct in calling you conspiracy theorists.


That's a lie. Blizzard has never responded to this thread, or called me a conspiracy theorist. Blizzard cannot deny my claims, because they are based on disclosures from Overwatch's own game designers.


Lying in motion.

10/31/2017 09:29 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
10/31/2017 09:25 AMPosted by Hun
Can you address "rigged MMR SYSTEM" please. Too many people crying over the system is out to get them.
It's not. Stop being so paranoid.

Addressed.
In this post by principal designer Scott mercer he explicitly states that there is no handicapping in competitive matchmaking:

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20749737390#post-3

Furthermore in the unofficial poll this topic is losing more by the day - out of 869 posts and potentially ten times as many views (maybe even in the tens of thousands) there are only 258 likes. There's also talk about that number being heavily inflated by the use of multiple accounts by the thread starter but before I have had a chance to do further investigations into the extent of this let's not jump the gun on this one.

Given this new information it's looking like there are dark days ahead for the handicapping proponents.
02/13/2018 10:41 AMPosted by Cuthbert
02/13/2018 06:57 AMPosted by Provoxin
I was replying to you saying that Blizzard marks you as conspiracy theorists, responding that they would be 100% correct in calling you conspiracy theorists.


That's a lie. Blizzard has never responded to this thread, or called me a conspiracy theorist. Blizzard cannot deny my claims, because they are based on disclosures from Overwatch's own game designers.

They did respond, but it was to me when I asked themabout your thread when your title was different, ergo they responded to you indirectly.
Oh my gosh this post again. 75% of ALL OP's posts are on this thread and another 15% are mindless replys to other threads just to put a link to this one.
I am NOT even exaggerating you can check for yourself.

I am saying this because i see no other reason as to why this thread is still alive. The OP post is wrong on so many levels. He doesn't get the concept of ELO rating and all his claims have no actual concrete proofs and the post itself is unreasonably big.

I recommend to everyone to read the very first reply of this thread which gives a better explanation of how things are working in reality and then to never check this thread again and leave it to die peacefully.
I know this is going to perhaps sound stupid but this is the only decent way I can explain it...

On Fifa, there is a mode calls "Online Seasons" .. There are 10 divisions in this mode, everyone starts off in division 10.

When you are in division 10, you only get matched up with other people in division 10. You play 10 games per division, and each division requires you to accumulate a certain amount of points within those 10 games to go up a division, or a certain amount of points to avoid going down a division. (Rather like OW SR tiers, bronze-GM).

Now, what happens is, say you're a division 2 level player, and you've made your way up to division 6, and because you're still beating people 4-0 5-0 a game in division 6 because you're too good for that division, the game DOES NOT go "ok, you're too good for this division, we're going to start matching you with division 1 level players even though you're in division 6" ...

If the game did this, you'd never get out of division 6, even though you're a division 2 level player... What the game does, is carries on giving you division 6 level players until you climb out to where you belong ! In division 6, you'll still come across players who are also too good for that division, climbing to where they should be, like division 2 like yourself, and that's where the close games will be, but the game will never put you up against anyone higher than your division because it feels you're too good for that division... instead, it let's you climb NATURALLY to the division you're supposed to be in.

It doesn't start deciding for you who you should be matched with, instead, it gives you random people within your division, until you reach the division where you're not 4-0 / 5-0 beating people anymore.

Overwatch does the complete opposite to this !

Seriously hidden MMR should be gone, the only thing the game should matchmake with is SR and SR only and then it cuts out all conspiracy theories, everything, people will reach there rank naturally.
02/14/2018 09:19 AMPosted by Taktikz
Seriously hidden MMR should be gone, the only thing the game should matchmake with is SR and SR only and then it cuts out all conspiracy theories, everything, people will reach there rank naturally.


Your hidden MMR IS your SR (provided you didn't decay). Or to be more accurate, your "hidden MMR" is a long string of digits based on your play history that translates to your SR. It is NOT something where say, you show an SR of 2450 but your hidden MMR says you're really a 2750 player.
02/14/2018 09:19 AMPosted by Taktikz
Now, what happens is, say you're a division 2 level player, and you've made your way up to division 6, and because you're still beating people 4-0 5-0 a game in division 6 because you're too good for that division, the game DOES NOT go "ok, you're too good for this division, we're going to start matching you with division 1 level players even though you're in division 6" ...

If the game did this, you'd never get out of division 6, even though you're a division 2 level player...

That sounds stupid indeed. I hope there is no serious game that does this. However since we are discussing Overwatch here let's do your example using what we know for a fact about the Overwatch matchmaking engine.

You are playing Fifa and currently in division 6. However you are really good - a division 2 player in terms of skill actually. So the matchmaker will start matching you with players in division 5. Maybe even players in division 4... You keep beating those people as you are a division 2 player. The game is also starting to realize this and each win will bump you up a lot more than each loss. All of a sudden you are in division 3 and are playing division 2 players. As this is equal to your skill you are starting to even out at a 50% win rate. However the game will see that you are winning 50% of the time against division 2 players even though you are in division 3 so you keep climbing.

Viola - you are in division 2 now where you are winning about half your games. Time to improve and climb up to that first division now!
It is not handicapping. It is not rigging. It is a (hidden) number that goes up when you win, and down when you lose.


lmao what? Yes it is absolutely is. What you literally just said was that it is a handicapping system. "He's not angry, he's just mad" is basically what you just said lol. I'm actually dumfounded by that statement.

It's a biased system and Blizzard has admitted to this. In a true unbiased competitive system, it wouldn't try to make you win or lose. The only thing it would do is put you with people in a similar skill bracket...that's it.
02/13/2018 08:11 PMPosted by Jorlan
Good experiment, please only do competitive though (as nothing else is relevant in this thread, and it allows you to assess the games better). I recommend you note the following factors:

1. Blue SR/Red SR
2. Your SR at start of game
3. Character chosen and why - did you chose 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th or last?
4. Any leavers, or super over-the-top throwers, and which side they were on
5. How many players changed characters, and were you one of them?

Then, if you are good to take a few moments after the round has ended, reflect and answer these questions:

1. Who was the best red player?
2. Who was the best blue player?
3. What was the tactic your team used? Was it suitable?
4. What was the tactic the other side used? Was it suitable?

It'd be good as well if you could do this for 10 days. That would be a clean 100 games, which makes all the stats easier for people to digest.


Jorlan, this is an excellent idea and I will in fact take you up on this challenge!

10 days starting today, I will play 10 games each day only in Competitive Mode and will promptly respond with my results. (Note: I will de-rank as I currently sit at 2005 gold--I was placed at 2074, 1 or 2 games away from Platinum,

It's only been two days with my original idea (in Quick Play) and the results are already quite bad.

1st Day--8 loss, 2 wins
2cnd Day--7 loss--3 wins (In two games I had 1 Diamond on the opposing team same guy, I'll be considerate and not name him)

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