Why Handicapping (MMR) is Wrong for Competitive Play

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Posted by Anfanee:

Take into account literally every other game that uses this system


What other games use a Match Making Rating system? What defines it? How can you call it one system, when it would have to be designed differently for every game?
02/15/2018 03:03 PMPosted by Cuthbert
Posted by Anfanee:

Take into account literally every other game that uses this system


What other games use a Match Making Rating system? What defines it? How can you call it one system, when it would have to be designed differently for every game?


CS,League, Wow arena.... You name it. A purely based ELO system doesn't work when it is not 1v1.

Now you're literally asking skewed questions.... Yes it is designed differently for every game, what a dumb thing to state, but the premise is still the same. You have actual rating, and MMR. The system on the back end works from MMR, the actual rating is more of an "average" of your MMR rating i suppose. Now the way each game goes about it is different, for example; CS has MMR decay built in. But the premise is still the same.
What is Match Making Rating based on, in these other games like WoW arena? Stats like healing/damage done, etc.? Has Blizzard published information about how these other MMR systems are designed? What is the extent of that information?

I've played WoW arena (10 years ago), so I'm genuinely interested to know.
02/12/2018 05:16 PMPosted by Kaawumba
02/12/2018 05:03 PMPosted by S23
Ok sure. I'll provide the proof next time you reach a new career high while running solo queue. The loss streak you receive will be your proof.

Now prove to me that won't happen.


It hasn't. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19qAqcIcKfIulz_YN960HgV65c2GfphYdndc6lZli2CA/edit?usp=sharing

This data is all solo queue. I have 7 blocks of career highs. Only one or two of these are followed by significant loss streaks.


I want everyone to notice that Kaawumba has completely stopped playing Overwatch because he is wanting to avoid the loss streak that he is on. He knows at the end of the season it allows you to rank up (to prepare you to get excited for next season) and is waiting. Kaawumba's own data, ironically has proven that the matchmaker is rigged.
Nah the way 1 person does in wow doesn't matter at all. It's all solely win/loss based.

Arena MMR is based upon win/loss based upon current SR, with streaks impacting heavily on hidden MMR. Albeit the wow system is much more subtle than the one used here, but that is mainly because they are predetermined teams queueing rather than full PuGs. Being predetermined teams makes a big difference from a matchmaking system point of view. Points awarded for wins/loss are based on SR rating vs opponent SR rating. However it is your current MMR that will determine who you come up against.

For example;
I could get to 2200+ after around 20 games played on most of my characters, due to the way the win streaks worked. After a few wins in a row, it would place me up against the highest possible team i could face based on my rating. It would continue to do so until your win/loss evens out as your rating hits what it should. Eventually you got to the point where you win pretty much the same as you lose. Or in my teams case, we would lose 4-5x what we would win in points, as finding players at the rating was a pain. LONG queues....
02/12/2018 05:16 PMPosted by Kaawumba
02/12/2018 05:03 PMPosted by S23
Ok sure. I'll provide the proof next time you reach a new career high while running solo queue. The loss streak you receive will be your proof.

Now prove to me that won't happen.


It hasn't. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19qAqcIcKfIulz_YN960HgV65c2GfphYdndc6lZli2CA/edit?usp=sharing

This data is all solo queue. I have 7 blocks of career highs. Only one or two of these are followed by significant loss streaks.


I want everyone to notice that Kaawumba has stopped playing Overwatch because he is wanting to avoid the loss streak that he is on. He knows at the end of the season it allows you to rank up (to prepare you to get excited for next season) and is waiting for that to happen, although I still suspect it will force losses. Kaawumba's own data, ironically has proven that the matchmaker is rigged.

Be sure to bring this up every time he spams the forum saying it is not rigged. His first two seasons of data clearly show a massive loss streak after a career high. The 7th and 8th season he stopped playing before he gets to loss streak to manipulate the data.
02/15/2018 04:08 PMPosted by S23
02/12/2018 05:16 PMPosted by Kaawumba
...

It hasn't. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19qAqcIcKfIulz_YN960HgV65c2GfphYdndc6lZli2CA/edit?usp=sharing

This data is all solo queue. I have 7 blocks of career highs. Only one or two of these are followed by significant loss streaks.


I want everyone to notice that Kaawumba has completely stopped playing Overwatch because he is wanting to avoid the loss streak that he is on. He knows at the end of the season it allows you to rank up (to prepare you to get excited for next season) and is waiting for that to happen, although I still suspect it will force losses. Kaawumba's own data, ironically has proven that the matchmaker is rigged. Be sure to bring this up every time he spams the forum saying it is not rigged. His first two seasons of data clearly show a massive loss streak after a career high. The 7th and 8th season he stopped playing before he gets to loss streak.


Can i have that mindreading device you're using on him? Or your prophecy device? I'm pretty sure even the OP isn't insane enough to think the matchmaker literally plans out loss streaks for anyone.
02/12/2018 05:16 PMPosted by Kaawumba
...

It hasn't. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19qAqcIcKfIulz_YN960HgV65c2GfphYdndc6lZli2CA/edit?usp=sharing

This data is all solo queue. I have 7 blocks of career highs. Only one or two of these are followed by significant loss streaks.


I want everyone to notice that Kaawumba has completely stopped playing Overwatch because he is wanting to avoid the loss streak that he is on. He knows at the end of the season it allows you to rank up (to prepare you to get excited for next season) and is waiting. Kaawumba's own data, ironically has proven that the matchmaker is rigged. Be sure to bring this up every time he spams the forum saying it is not rigged. His first two seasons of data clearly show a massive loss streak after a career high. The 7th and 8th season he stopped playing before he gets to loss streak.


You're an idiot. His stats prove nothing apart from he is where he is supposed to be. If you average out those stats, it comes to 1822. Sure occasionally you will get a lucky stream which allows you to hit a season high, and sometimes you will get an unlucky streak and you will drop. Considering his stats didn't even move by 500 rating, what his ratings have done is normal.

What that says to me, is that you have hit your skill peak and when you are hitting this "career high" you are actually not where you should be.

most people "stop playing before a loss streak" because they acknowledge that they may not be playing that well today, and they know to climb they need to be at their best.

Also he hasn't stopped playing. He has been active all month.... ]

Your argument is invalid.
...

I want everyone to notice that Kaawumba has completely stopped playing Overwatch because he is wanting to avoid the loss streak that he is on. He knows at the end of the season it allows you to rank up (to prepare you to get excited for next season) and is waiting. Kaawumba's own data, ironically has proven that the matchmaker is rigged. Be sure to bring this up every time he spams the forum saying it is not rigged. His first two seasons of data clearly show a massive loss streak after a career high. The 7th and 8th season he stopped playing before he gets to loss streak.


You're an idiot. His stats prove nothing apart from he is where he is supposed to be. If you average out those stats, it comes to 1822. Sure occasionally you will get a lucky stream which allows you to hit a season high, and sometimes you will get an unlucky streak and you will drop. Considering his stats didn't even move by 500 rating, what his ratings have done is normal.

What that says to me, is that you have hit your skill peak and when you are hitting this "career high" you are actually not where you should be.

most people "stop playing before a loss streak" because they acknowledge that they may not be playing that well today, and they know to climb they need to be at their best.

Also he hasn't stopped playing. He has been active all month.... ]

Your argument is invalid.


It's been over a week since he played last. He sees he is on a loss streak and so he's waiting it out. I have the most valid argument, the biggest white knight for the matchmaker has actually proven that it's rigged and now he is avoiding playing to manipulate his data. Reported for calling me an idiot.
Anfanee, you argue one thing then use examples that are pretty much identical to what is happening in the current system. You argue losing a weeks worth of climbing in one night is bad, but that happens right now.

Forcing a bell curve also doesnt magically make things better. Bell curves, to be valid, need to happen naturally.

Why do you think they changed the system for diamond+? Could it be that stats should be irrelevant and win/loss is all that matters?
02/15/2018 04:29 PMPosted by Arzoo
...

I want everyone to notice that Kaawumba has completely stopped playing Overwatch because he is wanting to avoid the loss streak that he is on. He knows at the end of the season it allows you to rank up (to prepare you to get excited for next season) and is waiting for that to happen, although I still suspect it will force losses. Kaawumba's own data, ironically has proven that the matchmaker is rigged. Be sure to bring this up every time he spams the forum saying it is not rigged. His first two seasons of data clearly show a massive loss streak after a career high. The 7th and 8th season he stopped playing before he gets to loss streak.


Can i have that mindreading device you're using on him? Or your prophecy device? I'm pretty sure even the OP isn't insane enough to think the matchmaker literally plans out loss streaks for anyone.


I do have a knack for seeing patterns in data, I predicted his loss streak would come right around here, it has already started and he is avoiding playing because he cannot stand to see that I was correct.
02/15/2018 04:43 PMPosted by S23
It's been over a week since he played last.


Where are you getting this information? I played (and won) two games on Tuesday night.
02/15/2018 04:43 PMPosted by S23
It's been over a week since he played last. He sees he is on a loss streak and so he's waiting it out. I have the most valid argument, the biggest white knight for the matchmaker has actually proven that it's rigged and now he is avoiding playing to manipulate his data. Reported for calling me an idiot.


You're full of it.

He last played a day ago mate, and has been playing climbed significantly since he listed that as well. He also climbed another 40 rating since the day before that. I called you out for your bull!@#$, feel free to report me for the hard truth.
02/15/2018 04:32 PMPosted by Anfanee
If you average out those stats, it comes to 1822


I think you are only looking at the first tab on the spreadsheet (for season 5). It goes through season 8. I haven't been silver in several months.
02/15/2018 04:57 PMPosted by Kaawumba
02/15/2018 04:32 PMPosted by Anfanee
If you average out those stats, it comes to 1822


I think you are only looking at the first tab on the spreadsheet (for season 5). It goes through season 8. I haven't been silver in several months.


So i was! my browser didn't like the tabs... Had to open another one.

Same rules applies re law of averages, since yours is currently 2305. You can also see that you are steadily climbing as well. Good work.
02/15/2018 04:44 PMPosted by Jorlan
Anfanee, you argue one thing then use examples that are pretty much identical to what is happening in the current system. You argue losing a weeks worth of climbing in one night is bad, but that happens right now.

Forcing a bell curve also doesnt magically make things better. Bell curves, to be valid, need to happen naturally.

Why do you think they changed the system for diamond+? Could it be that stats should be irrelevant and win/loss is all that matters?


yes you may lose a weeks worth of climbing, but the system is designed to recover quite quickly so you can revert that issue.

I think you have misread what i have been saying completely. I never was referring to the MMR system based upon personal performance. Personally i think that the MMR system should be based solely upon win/loss. My argument was that the MMR system itself needs to stay for the sake of tiering. MMR can still be based on win/loss and not have anything to do with personal performance. All of my experience this season has been with the MMR system without personal performance anyway.

Either way i honestly don't care, my experience is people will 1 trick and it doesn't matter at all. It happens just as much at any tier as it does in bronze. Realistically that change makes almost no difference, as win/loss has always been the biggest decider.
I would be okay with this as long as the system is able to recognize the unfair matches and rubberband SR accordingly for upsets. You know, like TrueSkill did before it.

Always liked TrueSkill a lot better. Always felt more fair.
02/15/2018 04:02 PMPosted by Anfanee
Nah the way 1 person does in wow doesn't matter at all. It's all solely win/loss based.


But that would be a key point of difference, because MMR in Overwatch is performance-based. And it's comprised of many player statistics.
02/15/2018 04:44 PMPosted by Jorlan
Anfanee, you argue one thing then use examples that are pretty much identical to what is happening in the current system. You argue losing a weeks worth of climbing in one night is bad, but that happens right now.


Players are picking up on the same patterns, but drawing different conclusions from them. We need Blizzard to explicitly state what our Match Making Rating is, for Overwatch.
02/15/2018 04:57 PMPosted by Kaawumba
02/15/2018 04:32 PMPosted by Anfanee
If you average out those stats, it comes to 1822


I think you are only looking at the first tab on the spreadsheet (for season 5). It goes through season 8. I haven't been silver in several months.


Before I continue I want to ask and see what you say, Kawwumba, do you have any affiliation with Blizzard? Know people that work there, work there yourself, have any affiliation at all?

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