Why Handicapping (MMR) is Wrong for Competitive Play

Competitive Discussion
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02/15/2018 05:43 PMPosted by Cuthbert
02/15/2018 04:02 PMPosted by Anfanee
Nah the way 1 person does in wow doesn't matter at all. It's all solely win/loss based.


But that would be a key point of difference, because MMR in Overwatch is performance-based. And it's comprised of many player statistics.


It's only performance based for sub diamond...

But as i stated earlier removing the performance based part of MMR, and removing MMR completely are two entirely different scenarios.

I have no issues with removing performance based MMR... It's the MMR based upon Win/Loss that is vitally important.
Though the change doesn't impact me at all so i don't really care...
02/15/2018 06:10 PMPosted by Anfanee
It's only performance based for sub diamond...

But as i stated earlier removing the performance based part of MMR, and removing MMR completely are two entirely different scenarios.

I have no issues with removing performance based MMR... It's the MMR based upon Win/Loss that is vitally important.
Though the change doesn't impact me at all so i don't really care...


Okay...so how does SR work at diamond and above? You win/lose a flat rate of SR per victory/defeat?
02/15/2018 07:24 PMPosted by Cuthbert
02/15/2018 06:10 PMPosted by Anfanee
It's only performance based for sub diamond...

But as i stated earlier removing the performance based part of MMR, and removing MMR completely are two entirely different scenarios.

I have no issues with removing performance based MMR... It's the MMR based upon Win/Loss that is vitally important.
Though the change doesn't impact me at all so i don't really care...


Okay...so how does SR work at diamond and above? You win/lose a flat rate of SR per victory/defeat?


Sort of..

Win/loss based upon team ratings, then taking into account your rating compared to said team.

For example;
Say the teams are evenly matched, so for arguments sake you team rating is 20 points for a win, 20 for a loss for both teams. It will then look and go "If personal SR is lower than team rating: gain higher SR, if personal SR is higher than team rating: Gain less SR.

For most of the time your MMR will eventually sort of flatline near your actual SR ratings (as you hit your skill cap). This means that it won't have a massive impact on said 20 points, you might get say 24 points instead or something.

Where it has a big impact is tier progression/regression. Which is why they implemented that system. I suspect in the long run they will implement the diamond+ version for all tiers.
02/15/2018 05:51 PMPosted by S23
Before I continue I want to ask and see what you say, Kawwumba, do you have any affiliation with Blizzard? Know people that work there, work there yourself, have any affiliation at all?


No. Stop being so paranoid.
02/15/2018 08:57 PMPosted by Kaawumba
02/15/2018 05:51 PMPosted by S23
Before I continue I want to ask and see what you say, Kawwumba, do you have any affiliation with Blizzard? Know people that work there, work there yourself, have any affiliation at all?


No. Stop being so paranoid.


That's not paranoia, every post I have ever seen where someone talks about matchmaker you are in it spamming blue posts, defending the matchmaker etc. yet relatively speaking you barely play the game. I would venture to say you spend more time defending the matchmaker than actually playing with the matchmaker.

I'm going to go with my gut and believe that you work for Blizzard or are in some way affiliated with them.
02/15/2018 09:35 PMPosted by S23
<span class="truncated">...</span>

No. Stop being so paranoid.


That's not paranoia, every post I have ever seen where someone talks about matchmaker you are in it spamming blue posts, defending the matchmaker etc. yet relatively speaking you barely play the game. I would venture to say you spend more time defending the matchmaker than actually playing with the matchmaker.

I'm going to go with my gut and believe that you work for Blizzard or are in some way affiliated with them.


People that think that I'm a white knight don't read what I write very carefully. Here is a relatively recent quote where I am critical of Blizzard:

02/05/2018 03:32 PMPosted by Kaawumba
Blizzard's SR/MMR system looks like it was written by engineers. Cludged together and full of unintended consequences. Things that look nice on paper, but fail hard in somewhat common edge cases. etc.

The silver lining here is that things have been slowly improving, as Blizzard determines through experience what a more skilled person would have seen in the beginning.


Also, if you want to hold how much you play (or I don't play) as proof of something, stop posting from an account with only 38 levels. Do you have any concept of how ridiculous you look? Frankly, I still can't decide if you are a flat out troll doing this for jollies or if you actually believe the ridiculous things you say and believe that your arguments have any merit whatsoever.

02/15/2018 09:35 PMPosted by S23
I'm going to go with my gut and believe that you work for Blizzard or are in some way affiliated with them.


Your gut is an unreliable narrator.
02/15/2018 04:43 PMPosted by S23
...

You're an idiot. His stats prove nothing apart from he is where he is supposed to be. If you average out those stats, it comes to 1822. Sure occasionally you will get a lucky stream which allows you to hit a season high, and sometimes you will get an unlucky streak and you will drop. Considering his stats didn't even move by 500 rating, what his ratings have done is normal.

What that says to me, is that you have hit your skill peak and when you are hitting this "career high" you are actually not where you should be.

most people "stop playing before a loss streak" because they acknowledge that they may not be playing that well today, and they know to climb they need to be at their best.

Also he hasn't stopped playing. He has been active all month.... ]

Your argument is invalid.


It's been over a week since he played last. He sees he is on a loss streak and so he's waiting it out. I have the most valid argument, the biggest white knight for the matchmaker has actually proven that it's rigged and now he is avoiding playing to manipulate his data. Reported for calling me an idiot.


I'm not sure how much dumber people can get, but honestly you're at the very top of idiocy.

Any good player knows to not play when they're not playing well. That's not trying to dodge the system "rigging", but dodging your own bad performance.

Why would you intentionally sabotage your gains by playing on tilt, underperforming, or when you're inebriated? But people always do this, and I just don't get know why if your only purpose is get "SR."

For myself I play to improve myself, but if I'm sick or exhausted, I don't play my main. I'll play on an alt account and even then if I'm under poor conditions I don't play much.
02/16/2018 02:00 AMPosted by Hun


I'm not sure how much dumber people can get, but honestly you're at the very top of idiocy.

Any good player knows to not play when they're not playing well. That's not trying to dodge the system "rigging", but dodging your own bad performance.

Why would you intentionally sabotage your gains by playing on tilt, underperforming, or when you're inebriated? But people always do this, and I just don't get know why if your only purpose is get "SR."

For myself I play to improve myself, but if I'm sick or exhausted, I don't play my main. I'll play on an alt account and even then if I'm under poor conditions I don't play much.


Waiting an hour or a day is avoiding tilt. Waiting 5-6 days is not, why does this need to be explained?
Its so sad that people really try to make this game a better place and really think stuff through but Blizzard just keeps ignoring it no matter how popular threads like this become. I dont even know why forums like this exist in the first place if every attempt to help gets ignored.
02/16/2018 06:23 AMPosted by S23
02/16/2018 02:00 AMPosted by Hun


I'm not sure how much dumber people can get, but honestly you're at the very top of idiocy.

Any good player knows to not play when they're not playing well. That's not trying to dodge the system "rigging", but dodging your own bad performance.

Why would you intentionally sabotage your gains by playing on tilt, underperforming, or when you're inebriated? But people always do this, and I just don't get know why if your only purpose is get "SR."

For myself I play to improve myself, but if I'm sick or exhausted, I don't play my main. I'll play on an alt account and even then if I'm under poor conditions I don't play much.


Waiting an hour or a day is avoiding tilt. Waiting 5-6 days is not, why does this need to be explained?


I haven't played in well over a month since I've been travelling and won't be able to play anymore for this season and the next in NA. I don't know his circumstances, but not playing does not mean he's dodging "rigging."

Why is it that you want to go out of your way to make examples for "rigging" that you dodge basic logic.

Even if he didn't play for 5 days because he's not up to it, why do you identify that as something as dumb as dodging "rigging"?

You know what dodging would be? Placing at a high rating or getting to a certain rank and then quitting. There after stating that's your rank even though you haven't played enough to be that rank. Example? Me, why? I stopped playing for so long that I'm no longer GM. If I started playing again I would most likely be Masters, but definitely not GM. Even a month of inactivity can do a lot, people get better, metas change, I get worse because of muscle memory loss.

Maybe I can easily bounce back to GM, but that's not the case for everyone else and specially not lower skilled players.
I lost 7-8 games in a row this season. I've never seen that happen. I don't care about losing but I also never feel like I'm with players that are on the same skill level as me.
02/16/2018 09:02 AMPosted by Hun
I don't know his circumstances, but not playing does not mean he's dodging "rigging."

Why is it that you want to go out of your way to make examples for "rigging" that you dodge basic logic.

Even if he didn't play for 5 days because he's not up to it, why do you identify that as something as dumb as dodging "rigging"?


I've explained to S23 in a different thread what my situation is. I'm a dad gamer with a full-time job and long commute. Two games a day is my weekday limit, and four games a day is my weekend limit. I often do less than that because the wife or baby needs attention. I also don't play competitive when tired or tilted. I don't get tilted often, but I am frequently too tired to play.

My explanation of S23's "thought" process is that he has been unable to climb, so anyone who is climbing must be cheating somehow. And he rationalizes whatever argument he can "think" of to support that he is good, the system is holding him down, and only cheaters prosper.
02/15/2018 07:39 PMPosted by Anfanee
02/15/2018 07:24 PMPosted by Cuthbert
...

Okay...so how does SR work at diamond and above? You win/lose a flat rate of SR per victory/defeat?


Sort of..

Win/loss based upon team ratings, then taking into account your rating compared to said team.

For example;
Say the teams are evenly matched, so for arguments sake you team rating is 20 points for a win, 20 for a loss for both teams. It will then look and go "If personal SR is lower than team rating: gain higher SR, if personal SR is higher than team rating: Gain less SR.

For most of the time your MMR will eventually sort of flatline near your actual SR ratings (as you hit your skill cap). This means that it won't have a massive impact on said 20 points, you might get say 24 points instead or something.

Where it has a big impact is tier progression/regression. Which is why they implemented that system. I suspect in the long run they will implement the diamond+ version for all tiers.


I'm wondering why the system doesn't work like that for all competitive tiers.

Do you find your wait times for matches generally increase when you win matches?
02/13/2018 08:11 PMPosted by Jorlan
1. Blue SR/Red SR
2. Your SR at start of game
3. Character chosen and why - did you chose 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th or last?
4. Any leavers, or super over-the-top throwers, and which side they were on
5. How many players changed characters, and were you one of them?


I wanted to give you a sneak peak into my progress and I must say, it's not looking good. LOL!

I've discovered that when you lose Blizzard always takes away more points then when you win and this is consistent. (This undoubtedly leads to de-ranking)

Not only have I de-ranked as I warned I would but I have been digging a grave into Bronze quicker than I expected. (Remember that I was originally 2070--something and have now sunk down to 1933 currently)

One last thing, after I lose consistently, all of a sudden, I am faced by a team that seems incredibly incompetent. Walking targets that get mowed down without effort.

I'll have more information soon, stay tuned!
02/16/2018 10:02 AMPosted by Cuthbert

Do you find your wait times for matches generally increase when you win matches?


I've never noticed any such thing. Even after large win streaks.
02/16/2018 09:22 AMPosted by Kaawumba
02/16/2018 09:02 AMPosted by Hun
I don't know his circumstances, but not playing does not mean he's dodging "rigging."

Why is it that you want to go out of your way to make examples for "rigging" that you dodge basic logic.

Even if he didn't play for 5 days because he's not up to it, why do you identify that as something as dumb as dodging "rigging"?


I've explained to S23 in a different thread what my situation is. I'm a dad gamer with a full-time job and long commute. Two games a day is my weekday limit, and four games a day is my weekend limit. I often do less than that because the wife or baby needs attention. I also don't play competitive when tired or tilted. I don't get tilted often, but I am frequently too tired to play.

My explanation of S23's "thought" process is that he has been unable to climb, so anyone who is climbing must be cheating somehow. And he rationalizes whatever argument he can "think" of to support that he is good, the system is holding him down, and only cheaters prosper.


I've never said I can't climb, for the heros I use I'm right about where I'm supposed to be. My problem is the RIGGED loss streaks it forces you on.

What drives me nuts is I actually know how to rig the game in my favor and I won't say how because then it would be abused. Anytime I want to climb I can do it, it was me discovering this that made me so sick at the stupid matchmaker because it doesn't reward the correct type of play.
My biggest annoyance is that I originally went into comp a long time ago without really knowing the game or how comp ratings worked. I was placed in silver on my first season and had to fight my way into gold through elo hell.

Now for the recent seasons, it doesn't matter how many games I win during placement or how well/bad I do, I end up placed in mid gold. I thought I did well in placement this season, we won 7 games and I tried to do my best even though I had to flex a few times. Result, mid gold elo hell.

Now I could bust my rear end and do my best to fight my way up to plat, but what is the true reward? It just means next season I will get stuck in Plat again. It also means I can't play quickplay because I risk the toxic sludge there causing me to drop mmr and, therefore, dropping possibly in comp rank as soon as my next season's placements are complete.

The way it is set up, I would be better off creating a smurf account so I could enter comp without an extremely bad mmr.

Truthfully, the only reason I bother is that everyone equates skill in this game (or knowledge about it) to your broken comp rating. So you have ignoramuses, like Pu_se, who have gamed the system to have a high rating so that they can post "NERF XXXX" threads about heroes they dislike. When you try to counter their ignorance, they don't try to meet you with logic, they just say something like "Oh, you're XXXXX rank so you wouldn't know anything about it."
02/16/2018 10:49 PMPosted by Mordhaus
My biggest annoyance is that I originally went into comp a long time ago without really knowing the game or how comp ratings worked. I was placed in silver on my first season and had to fight my way into gold through elo hell.

Now for the recent seasons, it doesn't matter how many games I win during placement or how well/bad I do, I end up placed in mid gold. I thought I did well in placement this season, we won 7 games and I tried to do my best even though I had to flex a few times. Result, mid gold elo hell.

Now I could bust my rear end and do my best to fight my way up to plat, but what is the true reward? It just means next season I will get stuck in Plat again. It also means I can't play quickplay because I risk the toxic sludge there causing me to drop mmr and, therefore, dropping possibly in comp rank as soon as my next season's placements are complete.

The way it is set up, I would be better off creating a smurf account so I could enter comp without an extremely bad mmr.

Truthfully, the only reason I bother is that everyone equates skill in this game (or knowledge about it) to your broken comp rating. So you have ignoramuses, like Pu_se, who have gamed the system to have a high rating so that they can post "NERF XXXX" threads about heroes they dislike. When you try to counter their ignorance, they don't try to meet you with logic, they just say something like "Oh, you're XXXXX rank so you wouldn't know anything about it."


Yes! Players put a lot of stock in Skill Rating (SR), and that is because everyone *assumes* it is an objective measure of skill; that everyone is able to move up in the SR system if they show merit. But when players show true merit, the Match Making Rating system handicaps them by worsening the quality of the teammates they get matched with.

The only players who are able to escape this viscious cycle are those who know about the handicapping system, and are cynical enough to game it out by manipulating their own stats.
02/16/2018 07:58 PMPosted by Arzoo
I've never noticed any such thing. Even after large win streaks.


Okay, thanks for your input.
02/16/2018 10:49 PMPosted by Mordhaus

The way it is set up, I would be better off creating a smurf account so I could enter comp without an extremely bad mmr.


Wait...

Why should we have a single MMR tied to both quick-play and comp? What if you had few bad QP's or play for the giggles/lootboxes? Wouldn't it make more sense to have a QP/Arcade MMR and a Comp MMR?

I understand MMR is some convoluted number rank to help find quicker matches. So are custom games the only safe space to enjoy off-comp games?

Or maybe i'm reading this wrong... :thinking:

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