Why Handicapping (MMR) is Wrong for Competitive Play

Competitive Discussion
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02/18/2018 07:20 AMPosted by Hun
02/18/2018 06:38 AMPosted by JTMoney
Cuthbert is absolutely right, but Blizz won't change it, because they want us to keep spinning on our hamster wheel and playing for as long as possible, like in all their other games.


So you agree with the guy that went to University to major in English? Has zero evidence to prove anything and is unable to BASIC MATH.

It's infuriating how many stupid people there are in this world and how they're so proud being ignorant. It's honestly disturbing how people ramble about things they don't understand.

YOU GUYS PREFER TO BELIEVE AN IDIOT STUCK IN SILVER, WHO BLAMES HIS TEAMMATES FOR BEING STUCK THERE, RATHER THAN LOGIC BECAUSE YOU ALSO WANT AN EXCUSE.

I'll probably get forum banned, Downvotes, and silenced, but I don't care. You guys seriously need to stop playing video games and pick up a damn math book. Don't go to college or university to get an English degree like Cuthbert, go get something that's actually useful.

Peace.


Fun how you constantly keep trolling the thread and spouting your rude drivel then? You're clearly not in a state of mind to have rational discussions with anyone, and you keep missing the point of this thread. So be nice or stay away.
How about Stylosa dropping the bomb of the special server at the Blizzard OWL site that increases the tick rate of all the OWL games. So on top of MMR and SR we deal with a sub-par tickrate in this game. Which in turn doesn't help you win games either lol..
02/19/2018 11:24 AMPosted by tawT

Fun how you constantly keep trolling the thread and spouting your rude drivel then? You're clearly not in a state of mind to have rational discussions with anyone, and you keep missing the point of this thread. So be nice or stay away.


Can't have rational conversations with people that have English degrees, logic fails you guys. If you even knew basic math, you would realize how stupid this topic is, but unfortunately you're too proud to actually study math and rather be ignorant.

You've clearly not read everything Cuthbert has said from the start, I have, and he's changed his story over and over for the last 4 months. He's deleted his posts were he's clearly talking about "!@#$ teammates" and how it's their fault he's stuck in Silver.

You're so ignorant about everything, even when you have logical proof in front of your face you. You rather ignore it and accept a false "truth" from a person that didn't even know the difference between MMR and SR for over 3 months after making his initial "match making is rigged" post.

But hey I'm just a random GM player that got there after 2 Season, who started at gold. It just so happens to be more convenient for you to believe in a "rigged match making" system, than the fact that you just suck at a video game.
02/19/2018 11:55 AMPosted by Hun
02/19/2018 11:24 AMPosted by tawT

Fun how you constantly keep trolling the thread and spouting your rude drivel then? You're clearly not in a state of mind to have rational discussions with anyone, and you keep missing the point of this thread. So be nice or stay away.


Can't have rational conversations with people that have English degrees, logic fails you guys. If you even knew basic math, you would realize how stupid this topic is, but unfortunately you're too proud to actually study math and rather be ignorant.

You've clearly not read everything Cuthbert has said from the start, I have, and he's changed his story over and over for the last 4 months. He's deleted his posts were he's clearly talking about "!@#$ teammates" and how it's their fault he's stuck in Silver.

You're so ignorant about everything, even when you have logical proof in front of your face you. You rather ignore it and accept a false "truth" from a person that didn't even know the difference between MMR and SR for over 3 months after making his initial "match making is rigged" post.

But hey I'm just a random GM player that got there after 2 Season, who started at gold. It just so happens to be more convenient for you to believe in a "rigged match making" system, than the fact that you just suck at a video game.


A grandfathered GM.. The worst...
02/19/2018 11:49 AMPosted by Whistler
How about Stylosa dropping the bomb of the special server at the Blizzard OWL site that increases the tick rate of all the OWL games. So on top of MMR and SR we deal with a sub-par tickrate in this game. Which in turn doesn't help you win games either lol..


Dropping the bomb? This has been public since day 1. Overwatch servers run at 60 tick, but the tournament client doubles that.

Fun fact, back in the day the servers ran at 20 tick. Yes, I'm serious. The upgrade to 60 tick was done months after launch. Honestly, it was surprisingly smooth for 20 tick. Their networking code is well made. Which still helps players who don't have a good connection.

CS:GO runs at 64 tick, and sometimes they complain about it too, wanting 128 tick servers, but most players recognize it's a meme. You're not a pro, 60 tick is perfectly fine. Shedding a few milliseconds with a higher server tickrate isn't going to change anything in your game.
02/19/2018 12:00 PMPosted by Whistler

A grandfathered GM.. The worst...


Really? LMFAO! You have over 1700 Levels and stuck in platinum. I'm not sure what's more pathetic, your understanding of the term grandfather-in or your rank and level. I think it took about a week to hit your rank after I started, somewhere about 1\1000 of your time played.

Clearly there is no skill difference between us and I just got lucky.
02/19/2018 11:55 AMPosted by Hun

Can't have rational conversations with people that have English degrees, logic fails you guys. If you even knew basic math, you would realize how stupid this topic is, but unfortunately you're too proud to actually study math and rather be ignorant.


This is the exact thing I was going for. I don't have an english degree. You, however, should consider taking one together with one of philosophy because your style is both offensive and immature. If your only aim is to rant at people try opening a box and scream into it instead of flailing about on forums.

You've clearly not read everything Cuthbert has said from the start, I have, and he's changed his story over and over for the last 4 months. He's deleted his posts were he's clearly talking about "!@#$ teammates" and how it's their fault he's stuck in Silver.

You're so ignorant about everything, even when you have logical proof in front of your face you. You rather ignore it and accept a false "truth" from a person that didn't even know the difference between MMR and SR for over 3 months after making his initial "match making is rigged" post.


Changing your argument or ammending your views in a discussion is to be commended not scorned - and removing ones own stupidity is too. It is YOU who keeps harping about this. Move on.

Furthermore, I'm NOT "ignorant about everything" as you suggest, I've submitted evidence for handicapping through a dataset above and argued that it supports the op main argument.


But hey I'm just a random GM player that got there after 2 Season, who started at gold. It just so happens to be more convenient for you to believe in a "rigged match making" system, than the fact that you just suck at a video game.


This is an example why you should consider studying some philosophy. A blatant appeal to authority. You being GM does not qualify you as an expert in matchmaking systems or in evaluating the consequences they may have.

And logically I can turn your rubbish logic around and counter with "It's more convenient for you to believe in the system that happened to land you in GM".

Get schooled.

Link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority
02/19/2018 12:24 PMPosted by Hun
02/19/2018 12:00 PMPosted by Whistler

A grandfathered GM.. The worst...


Really? LMFAO! You have over 1700 Levels and stuck in platinum. I'm not sure what's more pathetic, your understanding of the term grandfather-in or your rank and level. I think it took about a week to hit your rank after I started, somewhere about 1\1000 of your time played.

Clearly there is no skill difference between us and I just got lucky.


Stop trolling the thread with your superiority complexes Hun, you embarrass yourself. Have some shame.
02/19/2018 12:00 PMPosted by Whistler
02/19/2018 11:55 AMPosted by Hun
...

Can't have rational conversations with people that have English degrees, logic fails you guys. If you even knew basic math, you would realize how stupid this topic is, but unfortunately you're too proud to actually study math and rather be ignorant.

You've clearly not read everything Cuthbert has said from the start, I have, and he's changed his story over and over for the last 4 months. He's deleted his posts were he's clearly talking about "!@#$ teammates" and how it's their fault he's stuck in Silver.

You're so ignorant about everything, even when you have logical proof in front of your face you. You rather ignore it and accept a false "truth" from a person that didn't even know the difference between MMR and SR for over 3 months after making his initial "match making is rigged" post.

But hey I'm just a random GM player that got there after 2 Season, who started at gold. It just so happens to be more convenient for you to believe in a "rigged match making" system, than the fact that you just suck at a video game.


A grandfathered GM.. The worst...

If I gave you any of my "grandfathered GM" I guarantee you'd lose 100 straight games until you get to gold.
02/19/2018 12:24 PMPosted by Hun
02/19/2018 12:00 PMPosted by Whistler

A grandfathered GM.. The worst...


Really? LMFAO! You have over 1700 Levels and stuck in platinum. I'm not sure what's more pathetic, your understanding of the term grandfather-in or your rank and level. I think it took about a week to hit your rank after I started, somewhere about 1\1000 of your time played.

Clearly there is no skill difference between us and I just got lucky.


I could care less.. Already made Diamond once in this horrible excuse for a ranking system and probably would still be there if I didn't skip season 5. I gave up on rank a LONG time ago lol. Grandfathered is BEFORE the Streak modifier was done away with.. Where people would gain and lose 1000's of SR.. Sometimes in one day. Putting people of all different types of skill sets ALL OVER the ranking system. You probably got a lucky steak along with the OTP's that are now stuck up there and not going anywhere. So Lucky... Yeah probably a good chance that is the reason. I already made it to the top 13%-15% of the game's population and I'm not to far from that this season. To me it's almost pointless.. Because this games system is hardly competitive in any sense of the word and this is due to the current trash ranking system in place. When they decide to make a ranking system specifically tailored to this game Competitive Mode will always be broken. There is no point in caring about Competitive Mode or your rank until then tbh.. Due to your actual playtime in competitive mode it looks like you don't play because you are scared to lose rank. I mean its the end of the Season 8 and you have what 8 games in?? That must be totally a true representation of your skill. Just like all the other super high ranked players that barley play game at all and just let their accounts sit in GM season after season. When you play just enough to stop the decay and not much else you are hardly defending your right to stay in the Rank you are..
02/19/2018 01:39 PMPosted by Whistler
02/19/2018 12:24 PMPosted by Hun
...

Really? LMFAO! You have over 1700 Levels and stuck in platinum. I'm not sure what's more pathetic, your understanding of the term grandfather-in or your rank and level. I think it took about a week to hit your rank after I started, somewhere about 1\1000 of your time played.

Clearly there is no skill difference between us and I just got lucky.


I could care less.. Already made Diamond once in this horrible excuse for a ranking system and probably would still be there if I didn't skip season 5. I gave up on rank a LONG time ago lol. Grandfathered is BEFORE the Streak modifier was done away with.. Where people would gain and lose 1000's of SR.. Sometimes in one day. Putting people of all different types of skill sets ALL OVER the ranking system. You probably got a lucky steak along with the OTP's that are now stuck up there and not going anywhere. So Lucky... Yeah probably a good chance that is the reason. I already made it to the top 13%-15% of the game's population and I'm not to far from that this season. To me it's almost pointless.. Because this games system is hardly competitive in any sense of the word and this is due to the current trash ranking system in place. When they decide to make a ranking system specifically tailored to this game Competitive Mode will always be broken. There is no point in caring about Competitive Mode or your rank until then tbh..


wat?
02/19/2018 01:56 PMPosted by Tapsum!@#$
02/19/2018 01:39 PMPosted by Whistler
...

I could care less.. Already made Diamond once in this horrible excuse for a ranking system and probably would still be there if I didn't skip season 5. I gave up on rank a LONG time ago lol. Grandfathered is BEFORE the Streak modifier was done away with.. Where people would gain and lose 1000's of SR.. Sometimes in one day. Putting people of all different types of skill sets ALL OVER the ranking system. You probably got a lucky steak along with the OTP's that are now stuck up there and not going anywhere. So Lucky... Yeah probably a good chance that is the reason. I already made it to the top 13%-15% of the game's population and I'm not to far from that this season. To me it's almost pointless.. Because this games system is hardly competitive in any sense of the word and this is due to the current trash ranking system in place. When they decide to make a ranking system specifically tailored to this game Competitive Mode will always be broken. There is no point in caring about Competitive Mode or your rank until then tbh..


wat?


Lost??
Lost??

LIKE

QUOTE
PREV


You're calling out a GM for putting in the work and getting there, basically saying he doesn't belong... Saying you gave up on ranked.... with 50 hours played on Zen alone....

Yeah I'm lost.
I gave exactly the reason for calling him out.. If you call 8 games a season work then I seriously don't know lol.. And yes I play competitive mode so??? It's really the only mode worth it in this game to play. I play QP in off season or maybe to practice. Other than competitive mode all I play DM from time to time.. Still doesn't mean I care about my rank. I probably have more hours in competitive mode than most people do. If the MMO market was good atm I would spend less time here for sure.. In fact I WISH a decent 1 Player RPG or a MMO would come out so I could play something else. I have about every legendary skin in the game.. I have 16 Golden Weapons. I have 300 loot boxes that I haven't even opened from 2-3 events ago. That still don't change my feelings about the plagiarized useless ranking system this game uses for competitive mode. The system is hardly accurate or fair. That's largely due to the fact that it was "borrowed" from another source and loosely adapted to this game. IMO the changes they implemented over time with this system has made it worse. Even Jeff admitted in an interview we are still learning how to use it and work with it. Well... sholdn't you know?? It's your system?? Be it far from me to judge but if you are a AAA Gaming Company with billions of dollars at your disposal, can hire possibly some of the best talent in the industry, and the only idea they can come up with is to steal a ranking system from another source for one of your AAA titles. Then something is wrong. Blizzard's OW Dev Team was severely understaffed at the games beginning so for the big $$ they rushed out competitive mode with a system designed for 1v1 gaming scenarios and adapted it to a game with a 6v6 gaming scenario. What possibly could have gone wrong??? This current system obviously doesn't work for OW you can just look at result. OW is now the one of the most toxic communities in gaming right now and what was the direct cause of this??? Competitive Mode.. The people sure as hell ain't mad about QP, They sure as hell ain't mad about The Acrade. People are frustrated about Competitive Mode.. Plain and simple. SO as I stated before.. Until they decide to scrap this ranking system and FINALLY write their own ranking system tailored specifically this THIS game the ranking system will just get worse and worse and so will the communities toxicity. Until then there is little reason to care...
Paragraphs son, use them.

Literally everything you just said is either wrong, or making really odd assumptions/conclusions based upon what?

02/19/2018 03:02 PMPosted by Whistler
FINALLY write their own ranking system tailored specifically this THIS game

What do you think they did?

And if you think this has the most toxic community that is laughable.
02/18/2018 07:20 AMPosted by Hun
02/18/2018 06:38 AMPosted by JTMoney
Cuthbert is absolutely right, but Blizz won't change it, because they want us to keep spinning on our hamster wheel and playing for as long as possible, like in all their other games.


So you agree with the guy that went to University to major in English? Has zero evidence to prove anything and is unable to BASIC MATH.

It's infuriating how many stupid people there are in this world and how they're so proud being ignorant. It's honestly disturbing how people ramble about things they don't understand.

YOU GUYS PREFER TO BELIEVE AN IDIOT STUCK IN SILVER, WHO BLAMES HIS TEAMMATES FOR BEING STUCK THERE, RATHER THAN LOGIC BECAUSE YOU ALSO WANT AN EXCUSE.

I'll probably get forum banned, Downvotes, and silenced, but I don't care. You guys seriously need to stop playing video games and pick up a damn math book. Don't go to college or university to get an English degree like Cuthbert, go get something that's actually useful.

Peace.


Dude, why are you deriding English majors? Brilliance comes in many forms. I have engineering degrees but I don't see how they're relevant to competitive gaming. Competent and bright people may choose very different disciplines to practice.
02/18/2018 07:20 AMPosted by Hun
So you agree with the guy that went to University to major in English? Has zero evidence to prove anything and is unable to BASIC MATH.


I have two separate answers for you regarding this one sentence.

1. I won't say that Blizzard is acting conspiratorially because usually a conspiratorial act normally follows a crime. Thus far the only "crime," Blizzard has committed is tricking people to continually play their game. Which in essence, is just being business savvy.

2. Evidence, or at least what that word means has become watered down. I have debated many different types of people on various subjects and I have found one thing to be common through out every debate.

When evidence is presented, if the results are contrary to one's belief, that evidence is rejected. This happens a lot in the political realm (which I will not mention any further).

What Cuthbert has mentioned and articulated does make logical sense. Just so you know I will post within a few more days a little experiment whereby I will be recording 10 games for a 10 day period and releasing those numbers in this forum.

This may help us better understand how the game functions and how games are indeed, "handicapped."

Lastly, try to understand that we aren't raving lunatics screaming at he sky--we are simply trying to expose a possible discrepancy in Overwatch that we hope to fix.
02/18/2018 07:24 AMPosted by Cuthbert
02/18/2018 07:17 AMPosted by JTMoney
Haha yes, played for a few years. I've played hundreds of games across different genres though.


Do you know any other games that mess people around the way this one does, with matchmaking? I can think of a few but none that are branded "Competitive Games" with "E-Sports."

Does WoW use Match Making Rating the same way? Another commenter said something about this.


I'm sure there are, but I don't know any off the top of my head. In large FPS games such as Battlefield, etc. I believe they assemble those large teams randomly. In that case, any anomalies would be washed out by the fact that the teams are large. In Starcraft 2 they use MMR, but it wasn't as much of an issue because the primary competitive format is 1v1 whereas team games 2v2, 3v3 and 4v4 aren't taken as seriously and aren't of much interest in competition or as a spectator event. I can say anecdotally that I have queued as a duo with my friend in SC2 3v3 and 4v4 and it did tend to give us crappy teammates. I think they try to match premade teams with other premade teams, however.

I don't know how WoW arenas matchmaking works, I just know that there is a vested interest in dragging out player progress so as to keep them as a customer for an extended time. Mobile gaming takes it to the next level: they intentionally handicap you and make everything slow, and offer to speed it up for a small fee.
WoW Arena, CS:GO, and LoL all use a similar system to the MMR system we see here. As you'd guess the WoW arena MMR will be the closest as it's by the same company. CS and League are a little more subtle, but the same premise applies.

02/19/2018 03:59 PMPosted by JTMoney
I don't know how WoW arenas matchmaking works, I just know that there is a vested interest in dragging out player progress so as to keep them as a customer for an extended time.


Actually the MMR system is implemented to diverse a ladder tier faster, not to "drag it out". It's to make it so top level players don't have to spend 100 games climbing, thus ruining 100 games for the lower tiers that are facing people that destroy them. The result of an MMR system is it can take 15-20 games to reach that same rank. Opposite works for players in a rating much higher than they should be.
02/19/2018 04:12 PMPosted by Tapsum!@#$

Actually the MMR system is implemented to diverse a ladder tier faster, not to "drag it out". It's to make it so top level players don't have to spend 100 games climbing, thus ruining 100 games for the lower tiers that are facing people that destroy them. The result of an MMR system is it can take 15-20 games to reach that same rank. Opposite works for players in a rating much higher than they should be.


Let's break this down.

Actually the MMR system is implemented to diverse a ladder tier faster, not to "drag it out".


If it's all well and good, why not be transparent and reveal everyone's MMR?

It's to make it so top level players don't have to spend 100 games climbing, thus ruining 100 games for the lower tiers that are facing people that destroy them.


You should have to climb and play a few games to prove that you're "top level".

How does handicapping each match to be a 50/50 win/loss chance help determine their skill faster, when it is designed to *slowly* and carefully determine your correct rating?

Certainly ruined games aren't an issue under the MMR system now? Oh, wait... toxicity, leavers, throwers, smurfs, groups vs solos, etc. Working as intended?

We haven't seen 100 OW games in an alternative system to the MMR one. But if its matchmaking is based on performance and skill rather than some handicap system, you'd only face those people that "destroy" you during placement matches, which happens in the MMR system anyway.

The result of an MMR system is it can take 15-20 games to reach that same rank.


What same rank? Your "true" rank, as some have called it?
Who actually believes that 15-20 games can determine your true rank?

20 games is only ~500 SR. So you think 10 placement matches put you within 500 SR of your rank? With 50% winrate, it'd have to be within 250 SR. Pretty far fetched.

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