A Response to Junkrat Changes

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02/15/2018 05:48 AMPosted by BoopBot
And given his lower kill-rate below Tracer, Genji, and even D.va, theres no actual reason to nerf it.

how do you even think about comparing Junkrat with Tracer, Genji or even D.Va.
Whats happening in your brain?
Totally differnt heroes. totally diffrent roles, totally diffrent play styles. what got in your mind?

If you compare somthing, then compare junkrat before the buff, with the buff and after the buff. What changed. How does his "kill-rate" dropped?
You (BoopBot) noted pickrate in GM, I focused on GM.
You noted not to look where things are "not Below average" so I looked above average (GM is above average).
I did also keep from the average (gold/plat) for most don't find the average rank a good indicator of an actual hero's ability/use. Most will say you have to look at the pros or at least GM play.

If you want to focus on a mid or average rank, let's look at gold. A drop over the last 30 days from 5.64 to 4.78. An 18% drop (or .86% decrease). Overall a bit worse than GM yes, but at the same time a much higher pick rate than you see in GM. Also in gold he's #1 DPS pick, 5th overall. So sure, let's look at him in an average rank then where he looks even better than GM!

02/15/2018 12:29 AMPosted by BoopBot
Yeah he totaly didnt drop to 2.91% in gm at any point in the past week ... His downward trend has slowed, but its still downward.

A very slow downard trend on a still EXTREMLY highly picked hero. Also we can look at that 2.91% on the 11th and look at his trend today at 3.41% and claim it's climbing back up if we want to start cherry picking here where we are looking.

02/14/2018 10:34 PMPosted by BlueFountain
Also, 4th highest win rate in GM.


Pointless statistic. He's used on defense, the thing he's good at. [snip] Do they not teach reasoning skills any more?

Again if you hate GM so much, let's jump to gold. 6th highest win rate in gold. Still pretty freaking good. You want to talk pointless? You complaining he's used on defense as he's a defense hero meant for choke holding (I added that 2nd bit in for you). Of course he's going to be good there! But he's also used on attack a lot, where he's not suppose to be that good. Maybe it's for he's still good? Maybe that's also why he's still got a good pick rate? Hmmm...

02/15/2018 12:33 AMPosted by BoopBot
His main designation as defense was to punish flankers. Guess what he's not good for given his inconsistent falloff and lack of priority in "Favor the shooter" estimation?

No, his main designation is not to punish flankers. His designation is to hold chokes and deny/slow entry through chokes. His AOE main attack with how spammy it is and with it's high damage is AMAZING at that, not to mention great at destroying shields often used to try and push through said choke faster. His trap slows that movement through (assuming it goes unnoticed) as well, and/or acts as an early detection warning to a flanker when put in an alternate route zone. So he may be good at helping note of a flanker flanking, but his job is not to punish a Genji or Tracer.

02/15/2018 05:48 AMPosted by BoopBot
Ultimately his ult is responsible for less kills per game than many others. And given his lower kill-rate below Tracer, Genji, and even D.va, theres no actual reason to nerf it.

An average (going off gold SR for you) of 1 less kill than Tracer and Genji per game. 1. And 1.6 lower than soldier. Oh yes, he's really being outdone by them (<-- sarcasm). And as noted before, Dva is a bruiser that often outdamages and outkills ALL DPS.

I will admit I doubt that his ult fails compared to many others like you state, but I seem to have issues finding stats for it (Overbuff does not seem to carry that one). If you have a link which states the stats of ultimate kills per game or use or something, I'd love to see it.

TL/DR
Even 18% pick rating drop =/= bad when still highly picked
Not meant as anti-flanker (you're an idiot if you think this, esp if you have 300+ JR hours)
Still wondering btw where you got that 25% pick rate drop statistic (I shared where I got my stats from)
Also want to know where you found stats for his ult kills vs other ults. LOVE to see it
02/15/2018 06:06 AMPosted by Hauven
02/15/2018 05:48 AMPosted by BoopBot
... Usualy because an entire team would ignore the junkrat laying a trap at their spawn door and lying in wait to drop mines and grenades on them even if it meant suicide. But the same has been done with Symmetra.

Ultimately his ult is responsible for less kills per game than many others. And given his lower kill-rate below Tracer, Genji, and even D.va, theres no actual reason to nerf it.


Agreed but this was on an attack round, on Hanamura at the beginning. My team's Junkrat got a riptire ready very quick.


If it was during the newer end of the patch.. your Junkrat was either doing good, or the enemy team was doing really BAD.... kinda works both ways.
02/15/2018 08:31 AMPosted by Dingel
02/15/2018 05:48 AMPosted by BoopBot
And given his lower kill-rate below Tracer, Genji, and even D.va, theres no actual reason to nerf it.

how do you even think about comparing Junkrat with Tracer, Genji or even D.Va.
Whats happening in your brain?
Totally differnt heroes. totally diffrent roles, totally diffrent play styles. what got in your mind?

If you compare somthing, then compare junkrat before the buff, with the buff and after the buff. What changed. How does his "kill-rate" dropped?


Total kills, reliance of spam, GenjiRmb&Dash/TracerLmb/DvaLmb&Rockets registering additional non solo kills, etc... Not.. hard to compare really. But all 3 of them can bumrush most of the roster and tear them down, 2 of those 3 can do it without using an E or Shift, but it works better if they do. All 3 of which have higher elim averages than JR starting all the way down in Gold. But when all 3 end up with Higher Ed ratios, Higher Kill averages, Higher pick rates stacking them in the top 6, clearly, junkrat is/was the problem.
EXTREMLY highly picked hero

... anyone below 4% is not where they should be. 4 would be'average'. So tell me again why we had to nerf someone who was already average? Because the lowest ranks were suffering? Cool.

02/15/2018 03:17 PMPosted by BlueFountain
If you want to focus on a mid or average rank, let's look at gold.
Doesn't really hit the middle ground till platinum... Was this not common knowledge? Its pretty obvious when you see him drop down a chunk of the list...

But as we can see, !@#$% and frogleggs start accelerating up the list at that point forward. Because lower ranks don't understand how speed trumps damage in most of this game.

They've also been at the top of the list under mercy for quite a wile, Dva slowly made her way up due to additional buffs and nerfs to side characters, and reinforcing of dive comp and tripple tank. Meanwhile, Moira basically just takes over Mercy's spot, mercy dropping BELOW Junkrat, which is honestly ridiculous.

But, we KNOW why junkrat had to be nerfed, Genji and Tracer. Notably, You can actually see the corelation where Junkrat got his buff, and Tracer's stats dropped. He was able to close the gap on flankers and seal a kill with mine, and even then in gm had lower kills and lower pickrate than both of the people he was designed to threaten.

And if you think for whatever reason he wasn't designed to deal with flankers. Why would he have a trap that notably gets destroyed in normal battle, but stays safer off to the side, a burst damage weapon designed to close off small entrances and paths, a mine that did a 3 meter radius which was ridiculous to use on just about anyone else who didn't have 200 or less hp, and an Ult that only had a 10 meter radius, Minimal HP making it an easy kill, and a fall off radius that meant it was only lethal to most full health characters at i believe 4? meters. It was meant for chasing down flankers. Other characters can actually do more damage to shields than he can, wile he's useful as a shield breaker, that's not his full time job.

Tracer saw a minor drop in use and KDR so junkrat had to be nerfed, despite being well above most of the roster in picks by the time we hit average skill at plat.

Again if you hate GM so much, let's jump to gold. 6th highest win rate in gold.

... WIN RATE is the pointless statistic. Characters have varying win-rates, usually in relation to their pick rates and designated use. That's why DEFENSE characters overall are some of the only ones who had a positive win-rate in the OWL up ti at least last week, I haven't checked this week. The best defense is defense.

No, his main designation is not to punish flankers.
Ah there it is, yeah no, his main designation was to protect the back lane from flankers getting around any side routes. Giving him more mobility options made it easier for him to hunt them down however, which lead to the tracer issue, etc, etc. Junkrat nerf. Wile I personaly use the trap as described, thats not how it was designed to be used. The innitial assumption would be that flankers would be too focused on the task at hand they would suffer a good chance of falling into a snare. Lately however thats proven to be mostly folly, and I find it better to drop behind enemies that have pushed forward and then force them backwards into it.

But he's also used on attack a lot, where he's not suppose to be that good


Which is why a junkrat pushing forward is immediately dealt with? He's got a lower KDR for a reason, he DIES, Easily. He has twice the hitbox size of most other 200hp characters, and rounds that travel only double running speed, making him easy to dodge. Most people dying to a junkrat, are incapable of realizing it was most likely -their- fault they died.

02/15/2018 03:17 PMPosted by BlueFountain
I will admit I doubt that his ult fails compared to many others like you state, but I seem to have issues finding stats for it


Its tedious but you just have to look them up on each individual heroe's list.
The main problem is the api isnt being used to divvy the stats up by tier. So overall (where I would expect junkrat to do better) Genji would be valued at 5.6 dragon kills per game vs junkrats 4.5 riptire kills per game, likely in multiple strikes. Notably, Junkrat seems to get his Tire more than Genji gets his Dragon Blade, yet overall Genji comes out on top, and is notably one of the few who's ults lead directly into a Team Kill.

02/15/2018 03:17 PMPosted by BlueFountain
going off gold SR for you

Again if you hate GM so much, let's jump to gold

You keep doing this like there's a point. I was pointing out you were trying to use the lowest skill tiers which are heavily skiewed in favor of lower "skilled' players. You start at the middle and work up from there if you want a good idea of what skilled play and character kits are doing in relation to each-other.

02/15/2018 03:17 PMPosted by BlueFountain
TL/DR
Even 18% pick rating drop =/= bad when still highly picked
Not meant as anti-flanker (you're an idiot if you think this, esp if you have 300+ JR hours)
Still wondering btw where you got that 25% pick rate drop statistic (I shared where I got my stats from)
Also want to know where you found stats for his ult kills vs other ults. LOVE to see it


Didn't take long for more off handed name calling, cool! And the 25% drop was from the previous days in which I had checked, which showed a steeper average, the additional days past the 2% mark helped bring that back up... not hard to figure out...

And already stated where I got those. GG.
I’ve looked at high rank. At all ranks. At mid rank (which is really at the cusp of high gold and low plat, sadly I can’t tell Overbuff to let me look at 2400-2600 sr). I’ve looked a month back. 3 months. Even six.

I noted why Junk has a trap. To alert if used on a “side” or flanker route.

Btw it seemed they had looked at two mines and a damage reduction to 90 and a trap boost to 110. Geoff Goodman never notes why they kept trap damage the same as well as mine at 120 when they brought two in. But he does note using the mine to fight, and one to escape or using one to jump to say a Pharah and the other to burst damage her.

Basically going off his wording it seems the idea of two mines was so one could be used mainly for fighting/burst damage and the second to have an escape route. Sounds the Devs thought of it as they liked the idea of one being kept for a getaway option, and one as damage. Seems to make sense as if I recall a common complaint before use to be he had to choose mine either for damage or escape. They hoped Junkrat could have his cake and eat it too.

However that seems not the case most took it as. Most often it seems used for a quick double burst damage for 240. Which first off sucks as any of the 200 or lower hp heroes with the range they had and no falloff. Also it probably explains why his k/d ratio 2.3-2.4 (rank dependent, but dang is it consistent) which isn’t completely horrible, but definitely not good either. But yeah, so many failing to use/keep 1 as they should for an escape. Like an idiot Tracer player who wastes all her blinks to try attacking someone while also having no rewind.

Anyways, the 2nd mine mainly got used in a way they didn’t expect it to. and it felt cheap as hell so it got nerfed. They players and the devs hate things that feel completely unfair like that. Granted they often take forever to actually get to trying to fix it.

The mine had to be changed somehow. Don’t know why they didn’t go back to the damage reduction (which most wanted/expected since two mines was announced) and instead went to fall off damage. Junkrat needs to aim better with his mine now if using it for that burst damage. Maybe it could use more tweaking, but what I see looking at his use and chatting with others (ranging from silvers to top 500s) that he’s still good. Just not as messed as he use to be.

Bottom line though: he had to be altered to balance out.
Balance is fine, but the extra check for falloff, and the fact his mines and grenades are another tick behind everyone else means junkrat does NOT get the advantage of "favor the shooter" netcode prediction. He's already hampered by both the physical speed of his projectiles, the firing rate of said projectiles, and 1/2-1/3 the tick update less than everything else in the game.

Adding an incredibly sharp falloff to an already risky use of an ability in higher tiers was not a good way to go. Ultimately when they buff other characters he will be pushed further below, but thats ok as long as Genji and Tracer stay in the 6-8% range.

Its like when everyone warned that buffing Mercy was going to be a bad idea, but they did it anyway, and she became a NECESSARY PICK. We try to warn them, we layed down examples of other better more reliable ways of "nerfing" but fairly for junkrats damage vs his rate of fire and ability to build ult from his spread, but in the end it became a cluser truck of inconsistency. I've never experienced so many zero damage nades and mines before. They are registering zero wile exploding ontop of characters heads and I can only attribute that to the extra checks being put in place which delay any proper registration of a hit.
Additionally frustrating that no one from the team seems to want to comment in the PTR section about previous releases.
Shutup.
Junkrat doesnt need another buff or fix if anything he needs a nerf.
Yeah I don't understand the falloff change myself.

Junkrat is a defense hero, not an offense hero, when they changed his mines and allowed him to spam and win almost any engagement CQC, a place where previously he was at a disadvantage due to his self damage, he became way too strong.

I still think they should make his primary weapon still do self damage, while maintaining their long range damage power, and his mines shouldn't be a tool to instagib sub 250HP heroes in a group, its called a mine, it should be a powerful anti-flanker tool, not a team killing psudo-alt.

IMO the changes to junkrat over the past few patches have made him too much of an all around hero, he retained all his strengths, while they removed all his weaknesses.
02/17/2018 04:35 AMPosted by Sairia
I still think they should make his primary weapon still do self damage, while maintaining their long range damage power


Everyone else should take close range damage then. For getting in close range or firing into a surface too close to them. Ricochets happen.

Back in reality however, the reason Pharah has it is because she has the mobility to direct fire from a distance and safe height even in close range battle, no one can simply " walk " into her when shes up there. S76 takes minor damage from his as well because its a direct fire cooldown ability that goes down to 80, so unlike Junkrat currently he has the advantage of speed, instant detonation, and an 80 minimum splash. Instead of treating mines like a cooldown ability, they treat them like Pharah's primary without all the advantages.

Junkrat has neither the physical or projectile speed, a thin enough hitbox, the addtional hp, or constant range mobility to justify taking the type of damage he did when -any- character got close range to him. He was dying in 1v1's simply by genji dashing Into him even without the deflect or roadhog turning a corner.
02/17/2018 03:07 AMPosted by FunnyVal
Shutup.
Junkrat doesnt need another buff or fix if anything he needs a nerf.


Mmmm, a productive member of the community.. thanks for the helpful input.
01/07/2018 08:16 AMPosted by BoopBot
01/04/2018 02:43 PMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
We have changes to Junkrat and Mercy going up to the PTR (hopefully) this afternoon. We've been trying some changes internally and we'll put them up so you can see what you think.


I'll tell you what I think, Sir.

I... do not care for it much at all.

And that its likely going to get pushed to live is more than alarming.

The mine change is highly inconsistent, and the ability for Junkrat to defend himself or his team from flankers is greatly reduced.
Any sidestep immediately depletes his mine attacks ability to seal a kill.
Anyone beyond 10 meters away has a chance of simply side stepping junkrats mine or grenade, and most attacks are much further than that.
Network lag also seems to attribute to this effect.
So what people are seeing happen, isn't what is getting recorded.

Wile Junkrat will still be able to spam non stop in lower ranks, higher ranks will suffer junkrat not being able to handle flankers that come for him, the healers, or the tanks. The mine was detrimental to them trying to get in close, now they have less to worry about.

Additionally, unlike Pharah, Junkrat is responsible for detonating his attack, so what looks like a direct hit can be just a fraction of a unit away and have GREATLY reduced impact.

But what irks me, is this change was warranted by what data?
Third party sites keeping track of information on these characters shows Junkrat basically middle of the pack by the time he reaches Diamond through GM.
And ultimately, his design as an anti flank and area denial, just becomes area denial. He expends more damage to kill fewer people.

And that trick where he can hail-mary a Pharah who got too close that we were so proud of? Pretty much going to be a massive roll of the dice.

:|

Exactly, this isn't the nerf he needed. All they have to do is revert his self-damage and he won't be able to spam like a moron. He will have to be somewhat careful with his bombs raising his skill floor into existence.

BTW I am not saying Junkrat can't be used with skill, watch the pros and you will see that he can still be used really well without just spamming at point blank.

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