Please bring Win-based SR to all tiers in S9

Competitive Discussion
I've given up on getting it in S8 and luckilly I've improved my attitude a little and have managed to briefly climb out of Silver, we'll see if it holds!

But just wanna reiterate that I hope you see how bonkers using individual skill qualifiers in a team-based games doesn't work anywhere. I'm not very technically skilled next to my brother but I'm a good shot-caller and am improving my game sense, counter-picking knowledge etc. I don't usually out perform the median of any individual hero, at least according to Overbuff, but I'm at a 63% win rate across 80 games this season and I STILL get negative 5-10 points for a win-loss, where most people, like my brother, seem to net gains of 5-10 points. If my team wins, we should all be rewarded equally for winning that game.

Thanks for reading!
And please add roleQ/Lobbys/SoloQ or something that really helps filtering out the troller and griefer from this game :)
They don't care about the lower tier players. There's no reason not to have the new SR system across all the tiers. They won't do one thing to help the lower tiers.
hey dude! i 100% agree with you, its silly that you are still loosing that many points for a win\loss.

With a non pbsr system you would still have different gains for winning and loosing but it would not be biased for or against you, it would simply be based on the difference in team sr which would even out after you played enough games!

I checked out your masteroverwatch and i can see that you do indeed have a 62.8 percent winrate! thats a huge winrate!!! nice job!

This is exactly what i've been saying in other threads!!! Thank you for the example my dude!!!! The game only rewards people who play in a specific way, It rewards your brother and not you because the pbsr doesn't and can't reconize your shotcalling winning you games.

Thats ridiculous! That means that you need to have a higher winrate to climb as a good shotcaller compared to someone who is good at doing things the game recognizes and rewards!!! this should not be the case! Again i say, ridiculous! You SHOULD gain equal amounts of sr!

Are you currently climbing with that winrate? Or are simply breaking even because of the losses\gains difference?
The only problem I see with adding win SR instead of performance SR is imagine all the smurfs that should be in grand master or master etc. It would take forever for them to get out of the lower ranks and ruin matches for the enemy team making it an unfair fight. But other that that I think in all ranks would be a good idea
01/23/2018 05:27 PMPosted by Nessle
The only problem I see with adding win ST instead of performance SR is imagine all the smurfs that should be in gym or master etc. It would take forever for them to get out of the lower ranks and ruin matches for the enemy team making it an unfair fight. But other that that I think in all ranks would be a good idea


the current system does not stop masters players from smurfing in masters, i have no idea why people think it does, smurfs will simply throw thier games.

if you mean ALT accounts of master and other players, the placements matches should place them decently close to thier actual sr, masters players might get placed in diamond and then have to climb back, but hey, diamond already has pbsr removed and i don't see anyone complaining about alt accounts taking too long to get out of diamond?
Please don’t. At lower tier people do not care much for winning even in comp. I would rather lone wolf to preserve my SR than trying to work with snipers who wants to make others life miserable. I am not disrespecting others pick but at low tier there is no way people can perform on high skill cap heros. If they can then they won’t be staying in Low ranks.
01/23/2018 04:55 PMPosted by gungay
That means that you need to have a higher winrate to climb as a good shotcaller compared to someone who is good at doing things the game recognizes and rewards!!! this should not be the case!


The harsh reality is that in many ways it does need to be that way or a player will just simply not be able to perform at a higher level of SR. Like pretty much every Diamond Reinhardt main back in the day had top 25%-ish stats across the board. They won to move up, they played at a higher impact level then 75% of the player base and that's what made them a diamond level player.

There seems to be his strange feeling that "I do all the little thing that don't show up in stats for the team win!!" should be 100% rewarded at the same level who does all that stuff too but also crushes the other team under their boot. Like some how the boxer at 9-1 all by split decision is the same as the boxer at 9-1, all by knock out.

I get this is not a popular view but lower SR player tend to have nerdy FPS mechanical issues in most cases. Those need to be corrected to some level before any sort of tactics even can be pulled off. It's why P-SR is not as big of a deal to be removed at 3k+. A master level DPS player has already proven they can get stats and wins. Now it's all just about wins.

I'm not sure that system can work for players at SR ranges where they are still working on hitting targets, getting on the OBJ and other sort of basic mechanical sort of stuff that is shown in the stats. After all, it's not like you don't rank up while being lower impact stat wise, it just takes a tiny bit longer. Two paths, both are kind of needed for lower SR ranges.
Low impact, need lots of wins as you work around your limited nerdy skills.
High impact, still need a wins but you get rewarded a bit for better nerd skills
This isn't going to magically make you better, you know.

In fact, it will have unintended consequences when it comes to teams that usually have random players in them.

This will also encourage behavior where people know they don't have to try as hard as they can be carried and get the same amount of points. It would be "booster heaven".

No, a system that rewards people who actually try and do better than the rest of their team members deserve to get more points, or lose less.

I mean in reality, its not even enough at the moment, it should reward even more based on performance. Currently, it doesnt even have a significant impact.

Currently you still gain or lose quite a lot already on a game.
01/23/2018 09:14 PMPosted by Zeron
This isn't going to magically make you better, you know.

In fact, it will have unintended consequences when it comes to teams that usually have random players in them.

This will also encourage behavior where people know they don't have to try as hard as they can be carried and get the same amount of points. It would be "booster heaven".

No, a system that rewards people who actually try and do better than the rest of their team members deserve to get more points, or lose less.

I mean in reality, its not even enough at the moment, it should reward even more based on performance. Currently, it doesnt even have a significant impact.

Currently you still gain or lose quite a lot already on a game.


"This isn't going to magically make you better, you know."

yes we know, but it will make it so the system considers all styles of play, like communication in op's case.

For me personally it also makes what i need to do to climb so much clearer, i know to climb with a non pbsr system all i need to do is win more than 50% of my games, super simple.

With a pbsr system i also need to worry about trying to pad my stats and its frustrating to think that i could potentially have a 55% but still not climb because the game doesn't recognize my contribution


"This will also encourage behavior where people know they don't have to try as hard as they can be carried and get the same amount of points."


that doesn't happen in other games that use the system, dota and league are two examples, you also cannot climb relying solely on people to carry you, i really don't think this would be a problem? People who did try to rely on other to carry them won't actually climb.

Also the current system encourages people to stat pad over trying to win sooooooo


"No, a system that rewards people who actually try and do better than the rest of their team members deserve to get more points, or lose less."


but the system does not reward all styles of play equally, people like op might try thier best and do well with a 62.8 percent winrate!!! they are doing amazing!!!!!!! seriously... but they are still loosing more than they are gaining because they are better at shot calling compared to mechanics and the system cannot recognize thier contribution they are punished for it.

"I mean in reality, its not even enough at the moment, it should reward even more based on performance. Currently, it doesnt even have a significant impact.

Currently you still gain or lose quite a lot already on a game."

ah so you want to go the csgo route, that might be ok, i haven't played csgo so i don't know how it works, i think its a better idea to go the moba route in overwatch because its much much much much much harder to solo carry in overwatch compared to csgo, where you can absolutely solo carry.
01/23/2018 08:46 PMPosted by DeadLamb
01/23/2018 04:55 PMPosted by gungay
That means that you need to have a higher winrate to climb as a good shotcaller compared to someone who is good at doing things the game recognizes and rewards!!! this should not be the case!


The harsh reality is that in many ways it does need to be that way or a player will just simply not be able to perform at a higher level of SR. Like pretty much every Diamond Reinhardt main back in the day had top 25%-ish stats across the board. They won to move up, they played at a higher impact level then 75% of the player base and that's what made them a diamond level player.

There seems to be his strange feeling that "I do all the little thing that don't show up in stats for the team win!!" should be 100% rewarded at the same level who does all that stuff too but also crushes the other team under their boot. Like some how the boxer at 9-1 all by split decision is the same as the boxer at 9-1, all by knock out.

I get this is not a popular view but lower SR player tend to have nerdy FPS mechanical issues in most cases. Those need to be corrected to some level before any sort of tactics even can be pulled off. It's why P-SR is not as big of a deal to be removed at 3k+. A master level DPS player has already proven they can get stats and wins. Now it's all just about wins.

I'm not sure that system can work for players at SR ranges where they are still working on hitting targets, getting on the OBJ and other sort of basic mechanical sort of stuff that is shown in the stats. After all, it's not like you don't rank up while being lower impact stat wise, it just takes a tiny bit longer. Two paths, both are kind of needed for lower SR ranges.
Low impact, need lots of wins as you work around your limited nerdy skills.
High impact, still need a wins but you get rewarded a bit for better nerd skills


Can you please explain what you mean by "able to perform" and what someone unable to perform would look like? how would they even get into a sr where they are unable to perform? do you not consider communication part of someones performance? if they can carry themselves in part by thier communication to a certain point why is that not valid.

There is only one victory condition in overwatch, your boxing example is kinda bad.

People do not need to be corrected by a performance system system because they are already corrected by being unable to climb past a certain point where your cumulative skill stops resulting in your winning more than half your games.

so a non pbsr system is self correcting and already requires you to get better in some aspect to climb, just not in one specific way that encourages you to play in a way that benefits your team less.

non pbsr systems work FINE for both dota and league, people talk about climbing based on different skills and they even celebrate it, there is a well known personalities like "slacks" who is known for his communication skills and celebrated for it!!!!! diversity in play style should be encouraged not discouraged

heres a thread on slacks

https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/53nvm6/how_to_raise_your_mmr_communication_guide_by/
With regards to smurfs , sure it will meen they remain at the tier longer however at the moment they throw to remain in a tier it could stop some throwing.

I had a widow literaly throw (she threw herself off a cliff all match!) I waited 5 mins to avoid her...joined a game and there he was again. The wierd thing was I let the team know he was a thrower and what had happened everyone was sad. Thrower picked junk and annihialted the enemy team it was brutal best junkrat ive ever seen I dont understand what thevpoint is if you can play that well why throw?
01/23/2018 04:15 PMPosted by Muryou72
There's no reason not to have the new SR system across all the tiers.

Smurfs.
yeah id like to have players infinitely better than me in my elo two or three times longer. sounds solid
01/23/2018 07:04 AMPosted by Drunkenstylz
And please add roleQ/Lobbys/SoloQ or something that really helps filtering out the troller and griefer from this game :)


This, they match me in a 5 stack vs 6 stack and I lose every time
01/23/2018 10:51 PMPosted by gungay
Can you please explain what you mean by "able to perform" and what someone unable to perform would look like?


go into any random QP/arcade game and watch what sub 2.5k player do facing better players when it comes to aim, positional play, ULT econ and all the other stat generating stuff. They chunk a lot of it. Plus one can't really look at dota and league as an example how non-psr game work being they are not FPS games. FPS games have a much higher mechanical skill component then top down games.

Players need to be able to have impact with their game play at higher SR too, well past just winning the games. It's also hardly holding anyone back to the degree people seem to act. Most player just don't play enough comp or win enough games to move up. The game to game SR numbers people see just feels crappy. If a person is not winning 54%+ of their games now or playing 100s of rounds of comp I don't see why they even care about the P-SR side of the game. It's not something that is coming to play for them anyways.

I've seen what high SR players on ALT accounts can do in lower ranges and I think the only thing keeping them in check, at all, is the P-SR blasting their MMR up. Most players who are at their true SR can't throw down the level of stats for the big P-SR gains anyways.

all the talk about P-SR holding people back does is have people think they have to DPS at all times to rank up. Even when your average silver player for example can't climb off just P-SR being he can't pull the stats, being he is a silver.
go into any random QP/arcade game and watch what sub 2.5k player do facing better players when it comes to aim, positional play, ULT econ and all the other stat generating stuff. They chunk a lot of it.

chunk a lot of it? what does this mean

ranked is not qp or arcade, a lack of pbsr would not result in golds playing with diamonds, it would result in people of different skillsets playing together, skillsets that contribute to winning games enough for them to climb to the same level, when they stop contributing enough make up for any mechanical issues they will stop climbing, but while they are climbing, they are still, yaknow, winning games, not loosing games.... the same can be said for mechanically gifted people who are HORRIBLE at positioning and horrible at communication, they will be able to climb with thier mechanics but at some point they will need to learn how to better communicate and position to continue.

also, positional play cannot be measured by the performance system, neither can ult econ afaik.

I wish i could find that story about the mcree who was great at aiming but horrible at positioning, his teammate instructed him to stand behind the orisa shield or something and the game turned from going badly to going great, different people have different skillsets, divirsity in skill is not a bad thing.

Plus one can't really look at dota and league as an example how non-psr game work being they are not FPS games. FPS games have a much higher mechanical skill component then top down games.

maybe id agree with this if the game was more like csgo and you could solo carry but you can't, so i don't think the performance based system is good in overwatch when you rely so heavily on your teammates, just like you do in dota and league.

Players need to be able to have impact with their game play at higher SR too, well past just winning the games.


why... winning the game is the entire point.... there is no other goal.... besides, your communication and other things that are not considered "good performance" by the system are having an impact.... if they are having an impact and winning the player and thier teammates games because of that impact, whats the problem, seriously, you aren't bringing other people down with your sick positioning skills or great callouts, because if you were you would hit a wall and quickly stop climbing because your winrate would dip, i see zero problem.

It's also hardly holding anyone back to the degree people seem to act.

do you have proof? cause we have the op of this post saying, hey, it is holding me back, im not climbing as fast as my friend who is gifted mechanically, why should he be punished when his communication skills very obviously help him win a lot of games, winning is all that matters, he does contribute and have an impact via his communication skills.

Most player just don't play enough comp or win enough games to move up.

Players with skills that are not measured by the pbsr system need to have a higher winrate than players who have skills that are measured, thats just not fair, sorry, i don't see in any way how thats fair. All play styles that result in positive winrates deserve to climb. Anything else is inaccurate. The goal is to win, not stat pad.

The game to game SR numbers people see just feels crappy.


i mean yea? thats one of the reasons we should get rid of the pbsr

If a person is not winning 54%+ of thier games

people should be able to climb with as low as a 51% winrate or possibly a 52% if you take into account underdog\overdog variance...

or playing 100s of rounds of comp I don't see why they even care about the P-SR side of the game. It's not something that is coming to play for them anyways

what do you mean by "coming to play for them"

I've seen what high SR players on ALT accounts can do in lower ranges and I think the only thing keeping them in check, at all, is the P-SR blasting their MMR up.

this the "pbsr stops people from smurfing" argument right, cause thats bullcrap it 100% does not stop people from smurfing, if people want to smurf in bronze THEY WILL THROW THEIR GAMES, if people do not want to smurf they will not be placed well below thier tiers, if they are thats a problem with the placement system and not something that the entire player base below diamond deserves to be punished for

Most players who are at their true SR can't throw down the level of stats for the big P-SR gains anyways.

not sure why this is supposed to be a good thing

all the talk about P-SR holding people back does is have people think they have to DPS at all times to rank up.

yea thats right, so get rid of the system, its a horrible system.

Even when your average silver player for example can't climb off just P-SR being he can't pull the stats, being he is a silver.

yea exactly, its not even helping people rank up, because like you say people cant even take advantage of it? thats horrible, get rid of it.
But if they do that, they have to stop trying to make 50% chance to win matches.
Because how would anyone ever rank up?

Matches HAVE to be completely and truly random. Forget MMR. Forget trying to force even teams.

If the three best players end up on the same team, oh well. They stomp and rank up as they should. And the should not be punished for it next game either, by receiving even worse teammates as some kind of test.

NO performance based SR. NO forcing even matches.
Only then would people find their actual rank based on their ability to win games.

And naturally, the matches would become even after time because people would be at their true ranks.
01/24/2018 02:09 AMPosted by Zelda
But if they do that, they have to stop trying to make 50% chance to win matches.
Because how would anyone ever rank up?

Matches HAVE to be completely and truly random. Forget MMR. Forget trying to force even teams.

If the three best players end up on the same team, oh well. They stomp and rank up as they should. And the should not be punished for it next game either, by receiving even worse teammates as some kind of test.

NO performance based SR. NO forcing even matches.
Only then would people find their actual rank based on their ability to win games.

And naturally, the matches would become even after time because people would be at their true ranks.


that sounds ok yea, rank players based on sr, try to get as even an sr spread as possible between teams, over time it will even out, i hope thats what they are doing now but im not sure, is there a forced 50% winrate?
I agree with you.

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