Torb & Sym? a problem?

General Discussion
I would like to point out a little graph I made, which I call "common sense":

https://imgur.com/a/d1Tqy

A "no skill hero" will always have an about equal efficiency, while a "skill hero" 's efficiency dependant on the skill of the player

(1) That we don't see Sym or Torb in OWL is not - I repeat - NOT any indication of their power. OWL players amongst the best players of the game, so they will be able to get A LOT out of a "skill hero". If "no skill hero" 's where balanced against the capability an OWL player can get with a "skill hero" - they would utterly dominate all ranks other then grand master.

(2) If you complain (all/most) "low skill hero" 's are too OP, then the problem isn't that they are OP - the problem is that you as a player aren't able to get the same efficiency out of a "skill hero" that the OW devs balanced the game around. The problem isn't that "low skill hero" 's are too strong - but that you are too weak. Yes it's possible individual hero's need tweeking - but you can't balance "no skill hero" using "skill hero" 's as measuring stick (as again - the capability of the player is the major factor that determines who's stronger)
01/27/2018 02:12 AMPosted by Qube
I would like to point out a little graph I made, which I call "common sense":

https://imgur.com/a/d1Tqy

A "no skill hero" will always have an about equal efficiency, while a "skill hero" 's efficiency dependant on the skill of the player

(1) That we don't see Sym or Torb in OWL is not - I repeat - NOT any indication of their power. OWL players amongst the best players of the game, so they will be able to get A LOT out of a "skill hero". If "no skill hero" 's where balanced against the capability an OWL player can get with a "skill hero" - they would utterly dominate all ranks other then grand master.

(2) If you complain (all/most) "low skill hero" 's are too OP, then the problem isn't that they are OP - the problem is that you as a player aren't able to get the same efficiency out of a "skill hero" that the OW devs balanced the game around. The problem isn't that "low skill hero" 's are too strong - but that you are too weak. Yes it's possible individual hero's need tweeking - but you can't balance "no skill hero" using "skill hero" 's as measuring stick (as again - the capability of the player is the major factor that determines who's stronger)
i second this. if somebody sucked at playing against what they call as "no skill hero", then they suck as the "high skill hero" player because they can't get the most out from their "high skill hero" skills.

The players that i respect are the ones that can utilize their heroes and get the most out of their heroes kit and not complaining nerf this nerf that because of their incompetence in utilizing their heroes.

And yes, before anyone saying "he's a mercy otp that's why he said this" i would like to say i haven't played mercy at all since blizz announce the ptr changes, and i'm already switched to zarya because it's pointless to play and practice a hero that will be nerfed to oblivion by blizzard. I'm not playing mercy anymore until they revert to 1.0 or rework rez back to ultimate in 3.0 (maybe.. or maybe not)
Low-skill heroes shouldn't be non-meta
01/27/2018 02:24 AMPosted by KucingKadut
And yes, before anyone saying "he's a mercy otp that's why he said this"
Actually, I say this as a Torb main -- but a torb main who's turrets frequently get blasted to smithereens by a pharah simply shooting missles at my turret from behind a corner (turret can't hit her, splash damage kills turret).

But I also say this as a Torb main who in other games dominate, because I can litterly see people running straight into the same turret for the 4th time in a row and dying. (ya know, if the 3rd time wasn't the charm ... well ... I guess I can only hope you tackle life's problems with the same level of determination, but with more succes ... )
Heroes that have low skill floors don't necessarily have to have low skill caps.

Take Moira, for example. Her ease of aiming her primary fire makes her a powerful character at low level play. However, her healing is more difficult to use properly, especially when it comes to hitting multiple players at once, and her ultimate also has very high potential, but isn't as good at lower levels of play.

If a hero has a low skill ceiling, it means the hero should be tweaked to have a higher skill ceiling. It doesn't mean the hero will never be good at high skill levels and should be ignored indefinitely.

Torb, for example, could have his skill cap raised by reducing the size of his head hit box and by increasing the speed of his primary fire projectiles, as well as by narrowing the cone of his shotgun to make accuracy more rewarded.

Symmetra could have her uncharged orbs move faster to reward higher player accuracy, as well as increase damage on her primary fire based on player accuracy.

Thus rewarding high-skilled play while leaving low-skilled play untouched.
01/27/2018 02:39 AMPosted by Star99er
Low-skill heroes shouldn't be non-meta
But they aren't non-meta.

Consider the simple example: Suppose Widow is part of "the meta" on defense. On low tier, a Torb turret can be much more efficient then the Widow who misses too many shots (it's low tier after all). Ergo, on low tier, it would be Torb, not Widow, who's part of their meta.

However, if you only define "meta" as the ideal combination for high tier players, then for obvious reasons (nameply point 1 of the top post) they shouldn't be meta: A high tier player with a "skill hero", shouldn't be dwarfed by a "no skill hero" -- as that would mean that a med-tier player wouldn't have a chance against a "no skill hero".
Winston requires as little mechanical skill as Symmetra yet he has always been meta.
01/27/2018 02:57 AMPosted by DemiserofD
Heroes that have low skill floors don't necessarily have to have low skill caps.
well ... I'd have to disagree with you in 99% of the cases - including for instance where you suggest giving Torb or Sym a better gun.

Giving them a better gun is a power boost - and thus where a Tracer player and a Sym player, where balanced toward eachother at a certain level of skill (namely the intersection of the lines of the graph in the top post) , Sym now would be slightly more powerful at that level.

At that point, for balance reasons it means she'd need a penalty (either in the area that requires skill - making your change mute - or in the area that requires no skill - increasing the skill floor).

--- --- ---

Now, I say 99% of the case - because in theory it is possible:

- by adding tweeks that are so hard to do that only pro players can do them, could give Torb & Sym a powerboost for OWL players whie at medium and low level they are still the same

- by adding mechanisms that only aid the no skill players, to "high skill hero"s , yet don't aid the medium & high skill players.

However, this is in theory. In practice, figuring out good, unique and natural feeling mechanisms that do this, is extremely - if not impossibly - hard.
You are assuming that Torb is a low skill hero (I can't speak for Symmetra), when in fact his rivet gun is one of the must skillful weapons in the game. It's just that it requires too much effort to be effective with it, when you can just play other heroes with easier - less skillful - guns. This makes your first point moot. You are confusing skill floor with skill ceiling. Torb has a low skill floor and a high skill ceiling.
What an interesting way to try and tell us torb is fine. He’s not
01/27/2018 05:08 AMPosted by Baelish
What an interesting way to try and tell us torb is fine. He’s not

i dont think thats what OP is trying to say. its more that if for example symmetra was just buffed to grandmaster level without giving her limitations like an skill based hero has, she would dominate everything below master.
some of people who ask for buffs for these heroes dont take this into consideration.
01/27/2018 03:52 AMPosted by Magypsy
Winston requires as little mechanical skill as Symmetra yet he has always been meta.


Winston have something very unique: the combination of high mobility and AoE/Shield-ignoring gun. He also share with D.va a "second life" in the form of Primal Rage. Since picks/frags are very decisive in pro-tier play, being able to stay alive and threatening for long periods of time is a major strength.

Symmetra have the shield-ignoring piercing orbs, but she lacks mobility and survivability. For very high skill and coordinated teams (ie, pros), its just too easy to focus fire on her for one second and she is at most an afterthought. But remove one of those requirements, and she is back at being strong. Uncoordinated teams can't focus her, and she can be pocketed while charged. Average/low skill players can't guarantee to kill her fast enough, and then her only limiting factor is range (like Reaper).

Torbjorn turret is a static target. It can have 1000 HP and it will still go down very fast for a pro team (they actually do that on the rare pro-tier Molten Core). Overwatch focused damage output is insanely high. Torb still get limited value at the pro scene because the turret divert attention. Sure, the enemy can focus and break the turret, but your equally-coordinated team can also use this window of opportunity to focus and kill someone else in their team. If done right, they are one player down, and you are one non-player entity down. Your team have the advantage. But its a high risk maneuver in that scenario because of how long it takes for Torb to properly position and upgrade his turret in a high-speed environment of a pro-tier match.

So, the limiting factors of Torb/Sym in high level play are not the same limiting factors of Winston (mostly, his huge hitbox and frail shield). The problem in all cases are not their no-aim tools (Tesla Cannon, Photon Projector, Sentry Turret), but how the rest of their kits interact with the unique aspect of each match.
01/27/2018 03:52 AMPosted by Magypsy
Winston requires as little mechanical skill as Symmetra yet he has always been meta.
I dunno. While indeed he doesn't need to aim, It's not like in low-rank, Winston is considered some god tank.

From learning how & when to jump, to situational awareness (a key factor for tanks), to learning how far your weapon shoots ... these are the things which differentiates between a low skilled vs high skilled player - even if these technically don't fall under "mechanical skill"

01/27/2018 05:04 AMPosted by CuddlyFlower
You are assuming that Torb is a low skill hero (I can't speak for Symmetra), when in fact his rivet gun is one of the must skillful weapons in the game. It's just that it requires too much effort to be effective with it, when you can just play other heroes with easier - less skillful - guns. This makes your first point moot. You are confusing skill floor with skill ceiling. Torb has a low skill floor and a high skill ceiling.
possibly - but all that would mean, on the graph, that on the right side, the (horizontal line of the graph spikes. (and considering virtually don't see him in OWL, this spike either happens after that of the OWL players (a.k.a. requiring god-like skill), or the spike isn't high enough (equal high skill players are still more efficient with other characters).

But both point 1 and 2 still stand.

01/27/2018 05:35 AMPosted by VoldsomVolvo
01/27/2018 05:08 AMPosted by Baelish
What an interesting way to try and tell us torb is fine. He’s not

i dont think thats what OP is trying to say. its more that if for example symmetra was just buffed to grandmaster level without giving her limitations like an skill based hero has, she would dominate everything below master.
some of people who ask for buffs for these heroes dont take this into consideration.

Indeed.

It's quite possible that Torb, or Sym, or Junkrat, or who ever is underpowered or overpowered.

Supposing Torb's turret has the same role as Widowmaker, I'm pointing out that it's only logical, that a OWL Widow will out perform Torb's turret, and that a newbie Widow who can't aim will be horribly subpar compared to the same turret.

Only looking at OWL skill level, you'd conclude Torb needs a SERIOUS buff.

Only looking at the newbies, you'd conclude Torb needs a SERIOUS nerf.

But both are wrong: you need to look at the point of skill where Blizzard tries to balance the game. Only there can you get a fair comparison wether or not Torb or Sym or Junkrat needs a general* buf or nerve or whatever

*: ref my previous post - how targetted bufs or nerves that for specific skill levels are very hard. Not wrong, not unwanted, but very hard.

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