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wall of text.


just because its not the outcome you wanted doesnt mean they need to look into it further. Hes been quite clear. one tricking is NOT reportable.

Also when people refer to throwing they mean INTENTIONAL throwing, as in their INTENT is to throw the game. One tricking is not inherently malicious like this. If the vague term of "throwing" was reportable you could report anybody who steps off the point in overtime, or accidentally wastes an ult/ability and doesnt have it in a key moment

INTENT matters. One tricks do not go into games planning to throw, they go in planning to win

if anything the people who throw games are the people who tilt as soon as they see a one trick


It has nothing to do with the outcome I wanted. Sometimes I know we're probably going to lose the match, even with a good team comp, because they're focusing our support more than we're focusing theirs. Maybe we're not prioritizing properly, maybe we're not peeling properly, maybe our DPS have bad positioning, etc. It could be a number of reasons, but the point is... A loss isn't that tough to swallow when you know you did everything you could.

However, the pill is much harder to swallow when you always have that nagging "what if" in your mind, wondering if you could have won had the Sym or Torb one trick just swapped to a 76, Junkrat, Pharah, etc. instead since that may have been what we needed. If all 5 of your other players are in roles that you need and are countering the other team, but you need that Sym or Torb to swap in order to make a proper comp, yeah... I'm going to be pretty upset about that. Not because I didn't get the outcome I wanted, but because the one trick had control over the outcome and didn't seem to care what happened.

Also, intentional throwing is what I was talking about as well. Let's just get off of Torb and Sym for the moment and say you have a Junkrat on your team. Okay, so the enemy has a Pharah and your Junkrat is constantly dying to this Pharah, right? Well, he knows this, we've pointed it out to him, and have constantly asked him to swap, yet he refuses to do so.

"I bought the game. I can play whatever I want. One tricking isn't bannable."

Every time you try to engage the enemy, Pharah kills the Junkrat, forcing you into a 5v6. Inevitably, you lose. I'm reporting that player for throwing because he can sit there and say "I was doing my best", but I know he'd be lying through his teeth because it looked like he was intentionally throwing. The INTENT here is that, yes, he may have not "intended" to throw, but when you look at what's happening and your entire team is pleading with you to swap so you'll stop dying, then the intent changes because you have ignored the team's request.

You're just going to continue bashing your head against that wall, expecting it to magically stop hurting for some reason, and that's just not fair to your team. You can't expect your team to give you respect when you're not showing your team respect. The moment you decide to one trick is the moment you forfeit your right to complain about the team, which a lot of these guys seem to do when something isn't working. They absolutely refuse to acknowledge that they could be at fault and won't swap, yet they expect YOU to swap. How is that even remotely close to being fair?

As far as tilting goes... Yeah, I've seen people tilt when getting a one trick on their team, but they generally just try to play around it and make it work. They're salty as hell when doing it, but at least they try. That's more than what I can say for the one trick players though. They're already throwing the moment they insta-lock Torb or Sym on attack at King's Row and they're not even tilted, so what's their excuse?

02/07/2018 10:31 PMPosted by CucoMonster
02/07/2018 10:00 PMPosted by Fenrir
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That's still not being clear on the subject though. You say one tricking isn't a bannable offense, but then you turn around and contradict yourself by saying throwing is a bannable offense. 9 times out of 10, when you have a one trick Sym or Torb on your team, they're throwing because once the tactic doesn't work (like we'll see you're pushing on attack at Hanamura) and you're unable to get past the choke, that should be reportable. You can't report someone for just playing bad, but you can report them for deliberately playing bad.

That's the grey area which causes a lot of confusion. The thing is, most of the one tricks I meet are actually relatively nice people. They tend to tell you stuff like "I'll try my best" or "I was doing my best", but the thing is... If we need to change the comp, but you aren't willing to swap, that's not doing your best, imo. You KNOW it's not working, yet you're doing it anyway.

It's like trying to forcefully push a square peg into a circular hole and expecting it to fit properly. The worst part is when everyone else on your team is willing to swap and do everything they possibly can to fix the problem, yet the one trick still isn't swapping, so there's nothing more you can do to help ensure your win, so you're forced to take a loss. You can check my account, I'm sure, but every single one trick player I've reported, I did so because they were unwilling to cooperate with their team and be a team player.

They would ask for others to swap, yet they wouldn't give their team the same courtesy. If something went wrong, they would pass blame to others because OBVIOUSLY it's not the Sym or Torb's fault we're unable to push past the choke, right? It's just not a very fun experience, honestly. Long story short, one tricking is more or less a loophole in the system that many are exploiting right now and something absolutely has to be done about it at some point.

We have too many players insta-locking Sym or Torb, then thumbing their noses at their team saying "You can't report me! You can't report me! One tricking isn't bannable! Haha!", mocking us, because as you very well pointed out, it's not a reportable offense. So, what happens is, when we file a report regarding one tricks for throwing these matches, if we include in the report that they're a one trick, the report is probably dismissed on the grounds that one tricking isn't reportable, and the team completely disregards the fact that, one trick or not, this player was essentially throwing by refusing to cooperate with his team.

If you're playing a 1v1 game, I don't care if you one trick 24/7 all year around. That's not going to affect anyone but you. This is a team game though, so when you jump into competitive and you're insta-locking Sym or Torb every single match, that's not only impacting the 5 other players on your team, but also the 6 on the other team since they're not going to get much experience out of this match either. Trust me, as easy as you get SR in a 5v6 match because of a one trick player on the enemy team, it still doesn't feel very fun because you're not really learning much due to that player throwing, basically giving you the SR for free while screwing over his team.

Now, I can't speak on behalf of everyone here, but when I join competitive, I hope I can get a team that's as good as the opposing team so we can both enjoy ourselves without having any bad feelings after the match. You know, something that's just good wholesome fun. Nobody likes getting stomped and nobody likes stomping the other team either. It's just not a very enjoyable match that way.

This is why one tricking as a whole needs to be monitored. Maybe you can introduce a lockout system like how you lock out new characters from comp for a week. If a player picks a character X games in a row, then the character will finally be greyed out and they will have to play something else for X number of games before having access to it again. This will not only help alleviate the one tricking, but also give players an incentive to learn more than one character, which they should already be doing anyway.

Another bad thing about one tricking is that whenever this player sees their hero insta-locked by someone else on the team, they usually either:

A. Play incredibly poorly because they have to play one of the other 25 heroes they're unfamiliar with
or
B. Throw the match because "X took my main, so I'm throwing"

I encountered someone in a session tonight actually that was a Junkrat main and he threw as Sym because someone else went Junkrat. It's just ridiculous and should never happen, honestly. The fact that we even allowed ourselves to be painted into the corner like this is just kind of crazy to begin with. I understand not every hero is going to be viable, that's never going to happen, but we should at least be at a point where players should be wanting to play more than one hero instead of being not only rewarded for one tricking, but defended for doing it too, despite all of the downsides that come with it.

You said it yourself in a previous developer update, Jeff... Sometimes you need to swap otherwise your pick may not only cause harm to yourself, but to your team as well. That's true. You know one tricking is a problem. There's also the response you gave to Effect claiming how you understand his frustration and that one tricking is an issue that's being discussed internally on a daily basis, but the team isn't sure how to deal with it. There was also a video from late last year (or was it January?) where Blizzard stated that you want to maintain the freedom of choice and a player should be allowed to choose whatever hero they want to play out of the 26 currently in the game, but then that was immediately followed up with telling them to play as a team.

You can't tell someone "you can play whatever you want", then say "but I expect you to play as a team" since one tricking is the very definition of playing against your own team since it's an incredibly selfish mentality that destroys the foundation of teamwork because that player is only interested in their own wants and needs rather than what the team wants or needs. Anyway, I can talk about this until I'm blue in the face, like most of our members here, but I'd just be reiterating what I've already said, so I'll leave it at this.

Please look into this matter further, Jeff. I don't care if it's squashed by implementing a 'role queue', 'guild/clan system', or what, but please try and do something about it this year. Thank you.


Throwing is defined as feeding with the intention of giving the enemy ult charge, throwing yourself off a cliff, placing a teleporter of a cliff so that your teammates fall of the map, afk/inactivity and using game mechanics like Mei's wall to block your teammates.

Your definition of throwing isn't what Jeff means by "Throwing is bannable and should be reported".


I'm well aware of what throwing means. Are you telling me that if you have a Sym or Torb on attack at Hanamura that's constantly dying and not getting any value out of their turrets or ultimate, that doesn't constitute as feeding? They're contributing absolutely NOTHING to the team and are just giving enemy ultimates. It's not MY definition of throwing here.

That's THE definition of throwing. If you are unwilling to work with your teammates and you're just simply dying over and over again, repeatedly, without doing absolutely ANYTHING at all, you're throwing the match. Whether it's intentional or not is irrelevant. You need to change something about your approach, otherwise you're going to get reported.

I don't care if you have a heart of gold and you're a saint. All I'm going to see is what's in the kill feed and your contributions to the match. If I see your KDR is like 1:3 and you're only getting MAYBE 1 elim for every 3 deaths, I'm going to ask you to swap since this obviously isn't working. If you refuse to swap, then I'm going to consider you being defiant on purpose, despite needing to swap for the sake of the team, and report you for deliberately throwing/griefing because you're intentionally going against your team to get yourself killed, trying to make this work, even though it hasn't proven to work the entire match.

It's like the stubborn Widow players I've seen that refuse to swap even though they have a Winston on them 24/7. I've seen them on my team and I've been the Winston that constantly jumps them. They're idiots. I have absolutely no problem reporting a player like that because their pick is detrimental to their team, they have poor teamwork, and refuse to play as a team player.

If you don't care about communicating, working with your team, or trying to accomplish objectives, just stick to quick play or custom matches, but please stop throwing in competitive play. Some of us here are actually trying to enjoy ourselves.
Throwing has differing definitions:

Jeff - Throwers do not want to play the game.

Harasser - Throwers do not want to play the game the way I want them too.

Jeffs definition gets used in the ruleset, the harassers definition is just wishful thinking. There is no contradiction at all. But we might need an attachment to the ruleset which explains the emotive words.
02/07/2018 05:33 PMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
Let's be clear here and not confuse policy:

One Tricking is not bannable and should not be reported (it even says so in the text)

Throwing is bannable and should be reported. We appreciate your help here.

False reporting is bannable. Don't misuse the report system.


Then why do you guys keep banning KaJak, you still didn't reply to him after he answered you about your inquiry on his thread.
You know, the thread where he was told by GMs to "Play more normally", that the GMs want the banning to be "community based" and that the people who unbanned him in the past were wrong.
Not only that, but any threads about what happened to him have been deleted, and he has been banned from the forums and overwatch reddit for asking in a support ticket for his 1000 post thread about it to be unlocked.

Blizzard says one thing publicly, but tells everyone else something different behind closed doors.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20760728270?page=1

https://imgur.com/a/kc5ft
02/07/2018 05:33 PMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
Let's be clear here and not confuse policy:

One Tricking is not bannable and should not be reported (it even says so in the text)

Throwing is bannable and should be reported. We appreciate your help here.

False reporting is bannable. Don't misuse the report system.


Thanks for finally clearing this out. cheers.
02/07/2018 05:33 PMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
Let's be clear here and not confuse policy:

One Tricking is not bannable and should not be reported (it even says so in the text)

Throwing is bannable and should be reported. We appreciate your help here.

False reporting is bannable. Don't misuse the report system.


The voice of Oz has spoken, please listen. Understand and comprehend so that this poor man does not have to explain to you repeatedly. You all have brain cells... understand what he is saying...for the thousandth time.

This is NOT up for debate or endless discussion- He IS the FINAL word.....and that is the end of it. This is not a democracy.

Have a great night!
02/07/2018 05:33 PMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
Let's be clear here and not confuse policy:

One Tricking is not bannable and should not be reported (it even says so in the text)

Throwing is bannable and should be reported. We appreciate your help here.

False reporting is bannable. Don't misuse the report system.


The voice of Oz has spoken, please listen. Understand and comprehend so that this poor man does not have to explain to you repeatedly. You all have brain cells... understand what he is saying...

This is NOT up for debate or endless discussion- He IS the FINAL word.....and that is the end of it. This is not a democracy.

Have a great night!


It is up for debate when GMs tell those who got banned, not to one-trick, and to play more normally, and that apparently one-tricking or playing off-meta heros are indeed a bannable offense.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20760728270?page=1

I'm going to make a list of important pages of this forum. Incoming edits.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20760728270?page=26#post-516

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20760728270?page=19#post-367

^This last post has the infamous "Play more normally" post on the page. I couldn't find the original, so this is a quote of that post.

For those who don't want to click on the links, this is a quote from one of the GM repsonses.

"AKSHERON 11:54:57 If other players doesn't want you to always pick those 2 characters in competitive games, they are in their right to report you"

"YOU 11:57:02 I understand, sorry for playing Torbjorn and Symmetra in comp. Why Did I get unbanned the last 6 times though for the same reason

AKSHERON 11:57:48 I guess it's called benefit of doubt

AKSHERON 11:57:55 But after so many times there's no doubt

AKSHERON 11:58:01 Just try to play more "normal" :-) "
<span class="truncated">...</span>

The voice of Oz has spoken, please listen. Understand and comprehend so that this poor man does not have to explain to you repeatedly. You all have brain cells... understand what he is saying...

This is NOT up for debate or endless discussion- He IS the FINAL word.....and that is the end of it. This is not a democracy.

Have a great night!


It is up for debate when GMs tell those who got banned, not to one-trick, and to play more normally, and that apparently one-tricking or playing off-meta heros are indeed a bannable offense.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20760728270?page=1

I'm going to make a list of important pages of this forum. Incoming edits.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20760728270?page=26#post-516

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20760728270?page=19#post-367

^This last post has the infamous "Play more normally" post on the page. I couldn't find the original, so this is a quote of that post.

For those who don't want to click on the links, this is a quote from one of the GM repsonses.

"AKSHERON 11:54:57 If other players doesn't want you to always pick those 2 characters in competitive games, they are in their right to report you"

"YOU 11:57:02 I understand, sorry for playing Torbjorn and Symmetra in comp. Why Did I get unbanned the last 6 times though for the same reason

AKSHERON 11:57:48 I guess it's called benefit of doubt

AKSHERON 11:57:55 But after so many times there's no doubt

AKSHERON 11:58:01 Just try to play more "normal" :-) "


well its no secret that the dev team and GMs need to communicate with each other. The devs tell us one thing and then the GMs tell us another. Hopefulyy the fact that the damned game director has just flat out said that its not bannable will lead to future bans being overturned

though i wont hold my breathe

actions speak louder than words Jeff, and i feel like these automated and upheld bans arent going anywhere.
02/07/2018 05:36 PMPosted by Triton2435
02/07/2018 05:33 PMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
Let's be clear here and not confuse policy:

One Tricking is not bannable and should not be reported (it even says so in the text)

Throwing is bannable and should be reported. We appreciate your help here.

False reporting is bannable. Don't misuse the report system.


Jeff is on an absolute tear right now what is happening


if only this would become the new standard. Imagine: Jeff posts every day.
02/07/2018 05:33 PMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
Let's be clear here and not confuse policy:

One Tricking is not bannable and should not be reported (it even says so in the text)

Throwing is bannable and should be reported. We appreciate your help here.

False reporting is bannable. Don't misuse the report system.
I know this is a topic that is very controversial but if you one trick, (especially in the higher ranks like GM and Top 500) you are hurting your team by forcing them to play around who you pick. I wont hate anyone for playing a hero they like to play but I really do think one tricking is ban-worthy under strict circumstances.
02/07/2018 07:36 PMPosted by Felryn
What about One-Tricks who refuse to communicate (not saying voice because obviously no one should be forced to voice) and get off scott free for being one-tricks?

What does "Poor Performance" even mean?

That is also stated pretty explicitly in the report categories as well as not being reportable >_>
Hi Jeff,

I one trick Symmetra (less than a minute on any other character). I always play to win, but am constantly reported due to my hero choice. This is resulting in warnings and now a suspension. The "Symmetra Mains" sub reddit is full of people in the same boat.

It is all well and good to say "one tricking isn't bannable" but when you have a system that automatically punishes people who get falsely reported because their hero choice Is unpopular, One Tricking practically IS a bannable offense.
02/07/2018 11:07 PMPosted by MisAdventure
02/07/2018 05:33 PMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
Let's be clear here and not confuse policy:

One Tricking is not bannable and should not be reported (it even says so in the text)

Throwing is bannable and should be reported. We appreciate your help here.

False reporting is bannable. Don't misuse the report system.


The voice of Oz has spoken, please listen. Understand and comprehend so that this poor man does not have to explain to you repeatedly. You all have brain cells... understand what he is saying...for the thousandth time.

This is NOT up for debate or endless discussion- He IS the FINAL word.....and that is the end of it. This is not a democracy.

Have a great night!


Sadly hes not the final word, as long as the report system functions as it does and as long as GMs continue to go against the word of the Devs, Jeffs words dont mean much.

actual action needs to be taken or nothing is going to change, most that will happen is the drama will die down but the unjust banning of one tricks will still happen
02/07/2018 09:47 PMPosted by idSurge
Poor Teamwork, simply needs to be removed from the report list. Its LITERALLY undefinable right now.

Comms? Dont care.
Swaps? Dont care.
One Trick? Dont care.

Tell me what Poor Teamwork is.

I think I've reported for poor teamwork only a handful of times, and my bar is where I think they're probably throwing, but I'm not sure enough to report for griefing. The only one I remember for sure was a symmetra that wouldn't engage into team fights, team fights that were easily winnable if they had just joined in any way. Then after a couple people would die, she would go into the already lost team fight. When we engaged, she'd go 'set up a car wash' in a really off the wall location near point where the enemies would only go to chase the last stragglers of our destroyed push. After winning a team fight essentially 5v6, she'd join us and not put her turrets in a new location...until the enemy engaged, then she'd start putting up turrets literally as a winston is electrocuting her.

Now, I'm reasonably sure this behavior was intentional to lose the game because someone complained about him playing symmetra at the start of the game, especially because of the avg SR it happened at. But honestly, I didn't have time to study her actions other than notice really weird behaviors, so 'poor teamwork' was the report.
02/07/2018 05:33 PMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
Let's be clear here and not confuse policy:

One Tricking is not bannable and should not be reported (it even says so in the text)

Throwing is bannable and should be reported. We appreciate your help here.

False reporting is bannable. Don't misuse the report system.


Let's be clear here and explain the actual issue.

Nobody minds one-tricks as long as they play viable heroes in the given context.

Symmetra and torb are niche heroes that are not viable on attack or king of the hill for example. So if you one-trick these heroes you are bound to run into situations where you are a detriment to your team, poor teamwork, griefing, throwing - choose one.

The #1 reason why big streamers and pro players get fed off ranked are selfish one-tricks that ruin their matches on situational heroes. If you don't change the ruling regarding this and making it clear ranked will remain a joke.

You can't go out of your way and protect a vocal minority that ruins ranked for the majority of the players.
02/08/2018 12:44 AMPosted by Prozen
02/07/2018 11:07 PMPosted by MisAdventure
...

The voice of Oz has spoken, please listen. Understand and comprehend so that this poor man does not have to explain to you repeatedly. You all have brain cells... understand what he is saying...for the thousandth time.

This is NOT up for debate or endless discussion- He IS the FINAL word.....and that is the end of it. This is not a democracy.

Have a great night!


Sadly hes not the final word, as long as the report system functions as it does and as long as GMs continue to go against the word of the Devs, Jeffs words dont mean much.

actual action needs to be taken or nothing is going to change, most that will happen is the drama will die down but the unjust banning of one tricks will still happen


Luckily this. Currently the report function works more like a democratic vote, blizzard doesn't really have the power to tell us what we define as banworthy. If the community deems playing sym on offense into a chokepoint as a reportable offense reported it will be.

Basically these are just empty words. Fix the heroes in question or change the report function, you don't get to tell us which player behavior we should like and which we don't.
02/07/2018 05:33 PMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
Let's be clear here and not confuse policy:

One Tricking is not bannable and should not be reported (it even says so in the text)

Throwing is bannable and should be reported. We appreciate your help here.

False reporting is bannable. Don't misuse the report system.

I really need to understand this.

If a 1trick refuses to switch, even if his/her hero choice is playing AGAINST the team, it is not cobsidered throwing?

I'm not talking about reports made before the match starts (although we can have 1tricks several times in a row), I'm talking about games were the team gave the 1trick a chance to play his hero, and asked him to switch when said hero was no longer useful/was being countered hard.

Where is the limit between 1tricking and stubbornly refusing to be part of the team?
And of course people are now saying "one tricking isn't bannable, throwing is bannable but one tricking certain heroes is bannable, so I should report such players". Sad, yet so predictable. Jeff, please explain to these people that no matter what hero one selects this in itself does not constitute throwing under any circumstances. Anything less and many people will insist on the definition of throwing in my first sentence.

If you don't change the ruling regarding this and making it clear ranked will remain a joke.

You can't go out of your way and protect a vocal minority that ruins ranked for the majority of the players.


The majority of the players probably don't even know what one-tricking is, let alone consider it something that "ruins ranked".
02/07/2018 05:34 PMPosted by Sengell
It is inconceivable to me how you can intertwine unrelated subjects like OTP and throwing. It is not related according to the rules.
People like to conflate things if they think it will further their agenda. Same way people argue about 'one tricks' when in fact they're just complaining about the few 'non-meta' heroes, irrespective of how much the player actually uses them.
02/07/2018 05:33 PMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
Let's be clear here and not confuse policy:

One Tricking is not bannable and should not be reported (it even says so in the text)

Throwing is bannable and should be reported. We appreciate your help here.

False reporting is bannable. Don't misuse the report system.


Funny you say 'lets be clear'. Coz its still not.
Its a report fest right now. How does the automated system decide what is false and what is not false? Not to mention your GM colleagues are saying and acting the opposite direction of what you claim now. Feels like double standard.

Im not trying to discuss the one trick issue. Discussing that is like discussing religion. Its pointless. Just trying to understand what the deal is here.

Throwing is subjective. Makes this whole thing complicated. Coz we cant see whos (soft) throwing. What are your thoughts on implementing a classic, for OW modified (similar to HotS), scoreboard? It would help detecting on whats wrong with the team so we can 'try' to fix that what is wrong, in order to secure a win. It would also give GMs more info to handle the one-trick tickets better

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