How is hanzo coming along?

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[quote="207602087870"]We're still working on him so it might be a bit early to talk about where we are right now.

What I can do is mention a few things we have tried that haven't worked so far, that might be interesting.

We tried replacing Scatter Arrow with Piercing Arrow, which was an arrow that had an extremely fast projectile speed and would pierce through enemies and barriers. This was pretty fun as a 'snipey' arrow that you could occasionally take a super long-ranged shot at an enemy widow, pharah, or just a support in their back lines. Ultimately though, it was pretty frustrating to be feeling safe behind a barrier and get headshot through it and die.

Another thing we played with was just changing Scatter significantly. The most successful version was one where it had a very fast projectile speed, could only ricochet one time, could no longer split off the floor, and had a much tighter spread. This version removed the floor scatter entirely but added some new options in either using it as a long-range sniper shot or using it more accurately off a single wall (or ceiling). This one was pretty fun but mostly just felt really hard to use consistently. There were some areas of maps where it felt useful and fun but a lot of the time there weren't any usable surfaces around to cause a split, and using your cooldown to merely increase the projectile speed of your shot didn't feel great as a common use-case.

Another crazy thing we playtested a few times was a new ability bound to his Reload key (which is currently unused). This ability would have a small animation delay (~2-3 seconds) after which your cooldowns would reset. This meant if you wanted to sacrifice some normal shots you could forcibly reset your special arrows. This was pretty interesting when paired with the Piercing Arrow idea, but felt pretty crazy with Sonic Arrow. This idea overall wasn't bad but I think its shelved for now.

We're still narrowing in on what broad direction to take him, and what would make you really glad to have him on your team etc.


What if Hanzo has a selection of three arrows from which he choose from which has a certain cool down not sure how long yet, but say he has a shock arrow which is in the same line as Sombras hack in the sense that it'll disable an enemy's abilities for three seconds and reward the player for precision. The second one could be a gear arrow that could damage a shield or barrier significantly thus stopping a push or dive and it could also shoot through an Orisas fortify and maybe Dvas matrix. And for the third I haven't thought of one yet but maybe some one could provide some ideas for it. Maybe a arrow trap for flankers? He could alternate between the three and when he chooses one he'd have to wait for the cool down to reset to choose another. This is just my two cents but I'd like some insight and what everyone thinks. Please like if you this is a good idea or if you think this a step in a right direction. Thank you.
I think of how a pro archer could be ?

something like ability to shoot an arrow very fast with full power for each one ?
I mean a fast drawing time so you could do a "double strafe"
by pressing E you enter "prepare for no drawing time" then left click will use one charge
and you can store up to 2 charges each charge has about 5 sec replenish time.

https://boingboing.net/2015/01/23/ancient-speed-shooting-archery.html
Hi Jeff! I heard you are trying to rework scatter arrow for Hanzo. I absolutely love Hanzo, he is one of my favorite heroes. I wanted to submit my idea for him.

I am by no means a top tier player but I love overwatch. I love analyzing heroes and different game strategies with my husband. Take my suggestion as you will!

Hanzo

Hanzo is a very high skill character. Mastering headshots is something that is rightfully rewarded with one shot kills.

But let's face it, the reason people hate Hanzo is because he misses just way too often to be reliable, especially in team comp. Other dps in general just bring way more to the table. One could even argue Widow is essentially a better Hanzo- ability to get away with grapple, close range smg, poison mine, high pressure.

I love playing Hanzo but you have to be perfect. Otherwise you are simply bringing the team down.

How does one make Hanzo appealing in a team based game?

Other than sonic arrow and lucky shots, Hanzo brings little. Why go with Hanzo when other Dps just give you so much more?

I've always felt like Hanzo's purpose was similar to McCree in that he is this hyper focus character that needs to be able to know who target first and take down key enemy characters quickly in order to win team fights. I never thought his purpose is to get the most eliminations in the match. I think it's to find the enemy's weak point and eliminate it. Is it the healers that need to be taken down? Is the enemy junkrat carrying their team and no one is addressing him?

His secondary purpose is a shield breaker.

Third, his kit - sonic arrow.

My suggestion: Make his kit appealing to a team of players. Stop thinking damage and think utility.

Right now his sonic arrow is just not appealing enough to justify his pick. He needs more abilities.

I propose the following ability:

1. Slow Arrow. Anyone struck will be slowed down temporarily, ideally giving hanzo the window to headshot target as a follow up. Similar to McCree stun except enemy is not completely disabled and stopped and moves much slower.

Example:

Hanzo says "Be still!" or "Osoi! " ("Slow!" in Japanese) and strikes an enemy with an arrow that has a paper Talisman attached that reads "slow" in kanji, or 遅. The enemy is slowed for a few seconds while they are visibly slowed with same kanji over them or has Talisman stuck to them and audio sound effect to alert teammates to follow up.

Not only does this buff his accuracy on normal shots but it also encourages teamwork calling attention to a character that needs to be brought down.

I feel like right now Hanzo is a very lone wolf character. This ability gives him a good synergy with characters like Zen, McCree, Widow, etc.

This also gives him the ability to flee from an enemy Genji or Winston which are often his bane.

Lastly it also slows down a critical target, making his ult better.

Right now I feel like mobility is king in this game. It needs to be addressed. This can counter dive. (see below)

What if he misses though?

Perhaps striking the ground or wall creates a radius, similar to sonic arrow. Anyone entering the visible radius will be slowed. Because I think this could be too powerful, make the radius smaller and make the slow have not as much as a slow effect as it would on a hit direct target. This could also be used as a tactic to manipulate the enemy a certain direction to avoid the slow radius, making it easier to line up a shot.

Example. Before an enemy Winston jumps in to dive healers, Hanzo shoots a slow arrow on the ground under healers. Winston dives in, healers leave area, Winston gets slowed and vulnerable to death.

2. Cluster Shot

Similar to fan the hammer, get too close to hanzo and he can deal massive damage up close. Useful for being flanked as he feels helpless when someone is in his face.

3. Other Various Status Effect Arrow Ability. Poison, Anti, Burning, etc. Idea is same, direct hit bigger effect on solo character, Indirect on ground, radius and smaller effect.

I think making Hanzo more of a utility character with two more abilities would make him more appealing.

Just my thoughts! Feel free to discuss.
02/08/2018 05:04 PMPosted by possumcorpse
He will either be subftier or brokenly overpowered that is all they do at blizzard.


More like, pick heroes like him are hard to really balance. I actually think he's in a really good spot - has 1 shot left click potential, counterable ult, does decent against shield comps, gives info with sonar arrow, extremely mobile. Maybe a slight nerf to his scatter arrow to make it less effective against shields and a slight buff to his ult so he doesn't need to combo it with someone else, or so that it isn't completely outhealed by zen ult.

He'd actually be picked over widow most likely in OWL if his left click was hitscan instead of delayed projectile, that's how nutty hanzo is. He's incredibly balanced rn though in my humble opinion.
what about making E ability make your last fired arrow have an effect, like explode, cause poison, electrocute (stun), incinerate?

so hit a target and then press E to get him stunned wich makes it easier to land the finishing headshot? he also get viability for being able to shut down ults
02/08/2018 06:01 PMPosted by Geoff Goodman
Another thing we played with was just changing Scatter significantly. The most successful version was one where it had a very fast projectile speed, could only ricochet one time, could no longer split off the floor, and had a much tighter spread. This version removed the floor scatter entirely but added some new options in either using it as a long-range sniper shot or using it more accurately off a single wall (or ceiling).


An idea I had for the Scatter Arrow that would require minimal change would be the ability to shoot it (and it have the same behavior as it does now) but the damage be changing on a scale. Let me explain:

The Scatter Arrow would increase in damage the farther it travel and it's initial total damage after splitting would be equal to 1 normal arrow, but the farther it traveled the more damage it dealt in total until it is capped at the damage that it currently does on Live.

If it is used in the way it is currently used, shooting the ground to split up and kill a target it would only do the total body damage that a normal arrow does, so that would immediately make the Hanzo player want to just shoot a normal arrow with a chance of headshot then a scatter that now only has the chance to do a max of body damage for a target in the immediate vicinity of the splitting of the arrow.

Hope this is a helpful suggestion :)
How about a melee spinning tornado kick that propels Hanzo into the air while knocking the opponent back.

It’s a escape mechanism while giving him a better line of sight.
02/08/2018 06:01 PMPosted by Geoff Goodman
We're still working on him so it might be a bit early to talk about where we are right now.

[/quote]

Why not give him an ability like: 3 to 5 arrows he could shot with full power without the need to hold the button to charge?
High Quality shots still needing skill to make it count.
02/08/2018 06:25 PMPosted by Resurrekt
02/08/2018 06:01 PMPosted by Geoff Goodman

We're still narrowing in on what broad direction to take him, and what would make you really glad to have him on your team etc.


A smokescreen arrow would be awesome, any plans for a similar effect?


Smokescreen has been suggested for a huge swathe of characters across multiple iterations of the game by the players, one of the other people that have been suggested to have some sort of smoke screen ability is Reaper.

Its a pretty obvious ability, it makes me wonder if the dev team tried it out way back before release with some other hero and decided it didnt work super nicely so they never revisited it.
02/10/2018 05:03 AMPosted by Death
02/08/2018 05:04 PMPosted by possumcorpse
He will either be subftier or brokenly overpowered that is all they do at blizzard.


More like, pick heroes like him are hard to really balance. I actually think he's in a really good spot - has 1 shot left click potential, counterable ult, does decent against shield comps, gives info with sonar arrow, extremely mobile. Maybe a slight nerf to his scatter arrow to make it less effective against shields and a slight buff to his ult so he doesn't need to combo it with someone else, or so that it isn't completely outhealed by zen ult.

He'd actually be picked over widow most likely in OWL if his left click was hitscan instead of delayed projectile, that's how nutty hanzo is. He's incredibly balanced rn though in my humble opinion.


I feel like this is a fair summation, hanzo is 'balanced' but underpowered. his overall viability isnt super great but if you can land good headshots and land your (easy) scatter to get pick offs on any hero in the game then you can contribute SOMETHING to the team fights.

However Blizzard likes to focus on game-feel and proactivity in their multiplayer moba shooter here. These are both very important in terms of game design.

So while I feel like he might be technically balanced, ie a fair set of strengths to set off his weaknesses to a net level of balance he isnt in as good of a viability or game-feel spot as he could be. Mostly under-'powered' (keeping in mind that the power of a character comes from more than their raw damage) unless you have high amount of aiming skill (which is more likely in your enemies as well who have more tools than you as hanzo would to be successful) but you get a pretty cheap boom or bust ability at a range or close up. It's balanced, but also could be better, yknow?
I made a suggestion a while back that some people enjoyed. If I remember correctly, the basic idea was that instead of the arrow scattering on impact, it could scatter while it's in the air.

So you fire the arrow, it scatters in the air as it travels, then it ends up being a useful AoE ability from longrange. The arrows could even still bounce on impact. It could even have a mechanic where it only splits after a certain distance. Sort of similar to how Roadhog's right click shot splits at a certain distance. That would mean that if you shoot the new scatter arrow at close range at someone's feet, it would just end up being like firing a normal arrow at their feet. After all, a sniper is meant to snipe from a distance.

So to recap the idea, you fire the scatter arrow, it splits mid-air, the individual arrows bounce like they normally do. This will cause the ability to be very useful as an AoE while still being very useful in tight spaces like hallways, and it will prevent the aim at shoe one shot kill since the arrows won't be scattering from the single point of impact
I think a venom arrow would be the most welcome idea. Similar to venom mine, it would show your teammates where the enemy is through walls and does small over time damage. On this note, I think sonic arrow should be left alone. I do think venom arrow should work like sonic arrow and should be attachable to the environment. Also I think there should 3 to 6 charges to venom arrow. Yes, turn Hanzo into a builder with venom arrow being a threat to flankers...but destroyable. Also give widow 3 venom mines with cooldowns and obviously don't make them stack in damage with venom mines or venom arrows. Also give bastion something to build...all the defense heroes would have something to build then.
How about "EMP" arrows.

-Toggle on the reload.
- 50% less damage, no headshots.
-Every arrow that sticks in a barrier increases damage dealt to it. (Discord style)

Have you ever had 3 snipers on your team vs 2 barriers?
They could make Hanzo the unreliable sniper that does not care about barriers.

Maybe add a damage cap on Scatter.
Let's say 150 damage, but it can bounce off enemy players and bounce more often. Having arrows jump all over the place seems fun to me.
Why just replace scatter arrow when you can just nerf its damage and add MORE arrow types. Think Hawkeye or Green Arrow with 5 or more types of arrows. You can select one or two types to be used consecutively, but it sets the cooldown for all arrows. The combination of the 2 types of arrows depends on what you want to do (Attack and run, attack and attack, etc). Hanzo still has a lot of available button slots, so an arrow selction button should be easy to implement.

Giving Hanzo a variety of arrows might actually make him an extremely flexible character that can adjust to any Meta.

Here are some arrow type suggestions. Feel free to add to the list:
1. Spread arrow
2. Smoke arrow
3. Exploding arrow
4. Biotic Arrow (Like Ana's Dart)
02/08/2018 06:01 PMPosted by Geoff Goodman
We're still working on him so it might be a bit early to talk about where we are right now.

What I can do is mention a few things we have tried that haven't worked so far, that might be interesting.

We tried replacing Scatter Arrow with Piercing Arrow, which was an arrow that had an extremely fast projectile speed and would pierce through enemies and barriers. This was pretty fun as a 'snipey' arrow that you could occasionally take a super long-ranged shot at an enemy widow, pharah, or just a support in their back lines. Ultimately though, it was pretty frustrating to be feeling safe behind a barrier and get headshot through it and die.

Another thing we played with was just changing Scatter significantly. The most successful version was one where it had a very fast projectile speed, could only ricochet one time, could no longer split off the floor, and had a much tighter spread. This version removed the floor scatter entirely but added some new options in either using it as a long-range sniper shot or using it more accurately off a single wall (or ceiling). This one was pretty fun but mostly just felt really hard to use consistently. There were some areas of maps where it felt useful and fun but a lot of the time there weren't any usable surfaces around to cause a split, and using your cooldown to merely increase the projectile speed of your shot didn't feel great as a common use-case.

Another crazy thing we playtested a few times was a new ability bound to his Reload key (which is currently unused). This ability would have a small animation delay (~2-3 seconds) after which your cooldowns would reset. This meant if you wanted to sacrifice some normal shots you could forcibly reset your special arrows. This was pretty interesting when paired with the Piercing Arrow idea, but felt pretty crazy with Sonic Arrow. This idea overall wasn't bad but I think its shelved for now.

We're still narrowing in on what broad direction to take him, and what would make you really glad to have him on your team etc.


I'd save the peirce effect for a hero with rapid fire and weak damage something to end those at low health

the reset set sound fine with sonic arrow (in contrast to scatter sonic arrow isn't that great) and if need be reduce the time on how long sonic arrow lasts

my idea in tandem with the the best working scatter chance is to make is R a focus resource meter that extends the effect of sonic arrow makes the bounce on a scatter have less spread and decrease fall off decay on his regular arrows and/or make the arch less and less
I made a thread about this earlier today, but I didn't know this thread existed.

What if, instead of Scatter Arrow, it could be replaced with an ability called Rain of Arrows. When you use it, you can aim a circle on the ground, kind of like Doomfist's E ability, but a circle. And then you click to shoot it. The enemy will get an indication on the ground and will have time to react and after ~1 second, it starts to rain down arrows on the targeted area for ~2 seconds. After that it's all about damage tweaking, cooldown tweaking, how big area it affects and so on. The ability could just be like a AoE skill shot, since it takes some time for it to land. But can also be used for a soft area denial against enemies behind shields etc.

This would give Hanzo a unique tool and be useful against certain comps.
Fire 3 arrow at close range?

Blind arrow?

Give to her another skill like roll of McCree to survive more?

Use a rope arrow, fire a arrow in a wall and another to the enemy and this rope pull him?

Drink saque to fire more fast or more strong?

I like the idea of piercing arrow (no hitscan pls), but is frustrating.

The aim must be true, not put a hitscan arrows.

I think a good idea is something to support the team, but I not have a good idea.
02/08/2018 06:01 PMPosted by Geoff Goodman
We're still working on him so it might be a bit early to talk about where we are right now.

What I can do is mention a few things we have tried that haven't worked so far, that might be interesting.

We tried replacing Scatter Arrow with Piercing Arrow, which was an arrow that had an extremely fast projectile speed and would pierce through enemies and barriers. This was pretty fun as a 'snipey' arrow that you could occasionally take a super long-ranged shot at an enemy widow, pharah, or just a support in their back lines. Ultimately though, it was pretty frustrating to be feeling safe behind a barrier and get headshot through it and die.

Another thing we played with was just changing Scatter significantly. The most successful version was one where it had a very fast projectile speed, could only ricochet one time, could no longer split off the floor, and had a much tighter spread. This version removed the floor scatter entirely but added some new options in either using it as a long-range sniper shot or using it more accurately off a single wall (or ceiling). This one was pretty fun but mostly just felt really hard to use consistently. There were some areas of maps where it felt useful and fun but a lot of the time there weren't any usable surfaces around to cause a split, and using your cooldown to merely increase the projectile speed of your shot didn't feel great as a common use-case.

Another crazy thing we playtested a few times was a new ability bound to his Reload key (which is currently unused). This ability would have a small animation delay (~2-3 seconds) after which your cooldowns would reset. This meant if you wanted to sacrifice some normal shots you could forcibly reset your special arrows. This was pretty interesting when paired with the Piercing Arrow idea, but felt pretty crazy with Sonic Arrow. This idea overall wasn't bad but I think its shelved for now.

We're still narrowing in on what broad direction to take him, and what would make you really glad to have him on your team etc.

What about some sort of mine/c4 arrow wich could be triggert in one way or another like junkrats mine but way less damage or like a trigger effect like widowmakers mine wich the explosion gives a warning to hanzo if flankers come,i like both but you decide overwatch team.
02/08/2018 06:01 PMPosted by Geoff Goodman
We're still working on him so it might be a bit early to talk about where we are right now.

What I can do is mention a few things we have tried that haven't worked so far, that might be interesting.

We tried replacing Scatter Arrow with Piercing Arrow, which was an arrow that had an extremely fast projectile speed and would pierce through enemies and barriers. This was pretty fun as a 'snipey' arrow that you could occasionally take a super long-ranged shot at an enemy widow, pharah, or just a support in their back lines. Ultimately though, it was pretty frustrating to be feeling safe behind a barrier and get headshot through it and die.

Another thing we played with was just changing Scatter significantly. The most successful version was one where it had a very fast projectile speed, could only ricochet one time, could no longer split off the floor, and had a much tighter spread. This version removed the floor scatter entirely but added some new options in either using it as a long-range sniper shot or using it more accurately off a single wall (or ceiling). This one was pretty fun but mostly just felt really hard to use consistently. There were some areas of maps where it felt useful and fun but a lot of the time there weren't any usable surfaces around to cause a split, and using your cooldown to merely increase the projectile speed of your shot didn't feel great as a common use-case.

Another crazy thing we playtested a few times was a new ability bound to his Reload key (which is currently unused). This ability would have a small animation delay (~2-3 seconds) after which your cooldowns would reset. This meant if you wanted to sacrifice some normal shots you could forcibly reset your special arrows. This was pretty interesting when paired with the Piercing Arrow idea, but felt pretty crazy with Sonic Arrow. This idea overall wasn't bad but I think its shelved for now.

We're still narrowing in on what broad direction to take him, and what would make you really glad to have him on your team etc.
Idea, maybe you can use piercing arrow but make it more like a skill shot ability that is a hitscan-sniper bullet, like widow, with no falloff and can not go through barriers. Maybe do more damage on body and less on head... maybe. You could also have it where it does more damage on head and less on body... idk, just a suggestion.
I don't post often but I really enjoy reading all the suggestion people are making and at this point it feels like what the people want is a rework of some sort.

Increasing Hanzo's survival
A skill to make a quick escape or something to push the enemy away. I like the latter more. A roundhouse kick would be amazing but at the same time thats just one more skill to push people off cliff. So instead the reverse effect could also work that being Hanzo kick himself away from a wall or someone. He might also be able to do it while wall climbing.

Hardcore parkour Hanzo ftw!

One skill for all special arrow type
Many suggested something along that idea. Mine would be to press E and it switch between different arrow then use the Right Mouse Button (RMB/Alt fire) to charge and shoot it. Now the question is after using the ''special'' arrow would it go on cooldown or would every arrow type have a seperate one.

My suggestions for the different arrow type:
1.Sonic arrow
We already know what this one does
2. Snare/Trap arrow
This idea comes from Youtuber Blame The Controller. His idea comes from a Early Alpha concept. Torbjorn had a little device he could throw at a wall and when someone gets close to it a rope/chain comes out of it and prevents them from moving to far from it. So you make it into an arrow and either keep it as it is or make it so that you tag someone with it so Hanzo player could chose who to lock in place. That would give Hanzo alot more utility and perhaps more interresting for comp.

I dont know if we should give him more arrow or not at this point but I dont like the idea of just not replacing scatter arrow since his ''simple geometry'' quote is kind of iconic at this point.
3. Ricochet arrow
Its really just a dumd down version of scatter. Instead of multiple arrows its just one and maybe it deals a little bit more damage after it ricochet once. Maybe 150 dmg but I already see the Tracer player complaing about it.

Anyway I went on for long enough. Hopefully this reachs Geoff.
Also sorry for my poor grammar.

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