How is hanzo coming along?

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02/08/2018 06:01 PMPosted by Geoff Goodman

We're still narrowing in on what broad direction to take him, and what would make you really glad to have him on your team etc.
First of all, thanks for the read. Knowing what goes on behind the curtains is always enjoyable :)

I think that Hanzo as a whole needs some more strenght in his thematic as an OW character. Right now he is just "the Archer who deals a lot of damage" but having it relying only on single hits ends with him being either incredibly frustrating to deal with or completely inconsistent. Adding some condition to have him deal a lot of damage and giving him a "minigame" to play should be the way to go generically speaking.
02/08/2018 06:01 PMPosted by Geoff Goodman
We're still working on him so it might be a bit early to talk about where we are right now.

What I can do is mention a few things we have tried that haven't worked so far, that might be interesting.

We tried replacing Scatter Arrow with Piercing Arrow, which was an arrow that had an extremely fast projectile speed and would pierce through enemies and barriers. This was pretty fun as a 'snipey' arrow that you could occasionally take a super long-ranged shot at an enemy widow, pharah, or just a support in their back lines. Ultimately though, it was pretty frustrating to be feeling safe behind a barrier and get headshot through it and die.

Another thing we played with was just changing Scatter significantly. The most successful version was one where it had a very fast projectile speed, could only ricochet one time, could no longer split off the floor, and had a much tighter spread. This version removed the floor scatter entirely but added some new options in either using it as a long-range sniper shot or using it more accurately off a single wall (or ceiling). This one was pretty fun but mostly just felt really hard to use consistently. There were some areas of maps where it felt useful and fun but a lot of the time there weren't any usable surfaces around to cause a split, and using your cooldown to merely increase the projectile speed of your shot didn't feel great as a common use-case.

Another crazy thing we playtested a few times was a new ability bound to his Reload key (which is currently unused). This ability would have a small animation delay (~2-3 seconds) after which your cooldowns would reset. This meant if you wanted to sacrifice some normal shots you could forcibly reset your special arrows. This was pretty interesting when paired with the Piercing Arrow idea, but felt pretty crazy with Sonic Arrow. This idea overall wasn't bad but I think its shelved for now.

We're still narrowing in on what broad direction to take him, and what would make you really glad to have him on your team etc.


I love the Piercing Arrow idea replacing scatter. Since you are looking into cooldown resetting in general, how about you make it such that, a Piercing Arrow kill will reset the cooldown for Piercing Arrow only. That way, you wouldn't have to worry about breaking the cooldown for Sonic. Just a thought. :)

EDIT: The other thing I personally think needs slight tweaking is his ultimate. Unless the angles of the map favor you, it's nearly impossible to pull off a good Dragonstrike without the aid of another ultimate like graviton, blizzard or earthshatter.
How about a fire arrow? Lights a spot on fire and people take damage if they're standing near the blast radius (like Widow's venom mine?) or lights the target on fire if it hits someone to deal extra damage to that person. This damage would even work with hitting shields, maybe even forcing a Reinhardt to drop the shield for a second to drop the arrow to the floor (like you would a Sticky Bomb?) instead of taking the damage on the shield?
Since it seems the time has come where we can actually DISCUSS scatter, I'll draw on some ideas I've posted before in the hopes they might be received more positively.

Reducing the number of fragments from 6 to 5, and damage per fragment from 75 to 70 brings scatter down to 350 damage for a perfect claymore shot, down from 450. This brings the damage down low enough that it cannot instakill any tank from full without a discord orb, while still allowing him to fend off flankers and harassers. Tanks will get the taste slapped out of them but he won't simply erase 1/3 of them now.

A possible addition or alternative is to change the explosion pattern of the fragments. Currently a ground shot will cause them all to splinter straight up into the tender bits, so instead the explosion could be a bit more spread out, with at least 3/6 or 2-3/5 firing off more to the side than straight up, making it more of an AoE and potentially increasing hallway coverage. 3/6 firing straight up is a solid 225, killing 16/26 or roughly 61.5% of the roster outright. The only non-tank dive heroes who could survive are Reaper and Doomfist. Depending on the spread of the remaining 2-3 fragments, one COULD hit an ankle and increase those numbers.

To keep the number of fragments and bounces the same, instead allow each shard to hit multiple times but do 25 instead of 75 per hit. In a corridor tight enough for all 3 ricochets to hit the same hero 3 times that would still be 75 per shard, but it has a chance of chipping away at large clusters a bit more effectively. With the same explosion pattern as before, this is a solid 150 toe-clipping damage, not counting possible ricochets. Enough to outright kill tracer, and deter most other harassers.

I've long been fond of the idea of a piercing arrow, but I wanted the primary use to be as a shield breaker. Remove arrow drop, pump the damage slightly higher than a standard arrow, and allow it to do 400-500 damage to each barrier it contacts. This Allows him to do critical damage to Zarya and Winston's barriers, Roughly 50% to both Orisa and Sym's, and 20-25% to Reinhardt's barrier. Simultaneously, if need be. It could also function for self defense, but wouldn't be the "I win" button that the current rendition of scatter has shown to be. Works on offense and defense, and I would expect is a rather potent counter to the "Pirate ship" that seems to have become oh-so common.

I'm sure none of these are perfect, but I just wanted to throw out my 2 credits in an attempt to help. Scatter is a cool concept but MAN is it a pain to play against.
How about some sort of "magnetic shot", where you shoot a projectile at any location, and all primary arrows thereafter act as "scatter arrows" until they reach this location, letting off a small AOE explosion?

Usage example: In Kings Row, on Attack, you shoot the "E" magnetic arrow at the phone box behind point A, then using primary shoot any surface (such as the statue foundation), with the arrow ricocheting until it reaches the magnet, piercing enemies (then dealing % less after each enemy hit), and also slowing the projectile. If the arrow reaches the magnetic arrow, it explodes for X aoe damage. Lasts until 3 arrows reach the magnet or until the magnet is destroyed.
Can't wait to get ripped apart by everything that has high mobility.
I haven't read through the 8 or so pages of this thread, but I've had a long-ish-term idea about how to retain scatter arrow's purpose but remove or reduce the #feelsbadman.

How about an explosive arrow, a fire arrow, or another kind of AOE attack? I would envisage that still being useful to fire into rooms to clear out a hiding opponent but won't then result in a cheap-feeling death.

That said, certainly the explosive arrow would need some sort of visual cue so you can't just be blown up out of nowhere if you know where the Hanzo is.
Just give him consistency! Give him like a ability that increases his draw time by 50% for a certain amount of time. Or increase the projectile speed by 50% for a certain time.
Something..
Burning, poisoned or exploding arrow?
Remove Scatter Arrow and add an ability that provide an area knock back effect, pretty much like Pharah's concussive blast. It will help Hanzo to deal with people behind shields bumping them. The know back effect has a 3 meters radius but direct hit will make the target know back like DF punch.

It would counter dive by disrupting their rush.
Why are we just limiting him to new arrow ability?? You could do a bow smack that knocks enemies back, some crazy dragon kick, a self buff from his tattoos, stealth, a zip line type arrow( for team movement). ETC
And this is we should see more. It's always better to see your thoughts about the hero and his/her changes, instead of enigmatic "we are working on her/him".
ok, this might be crazy, like totally out there. but imagine a that the scatter arrow was replaced with an arrow that could kind of pin or trap enemies to the ground or a wall for a short while.
It would have a short duration and be a mix between Junkrats mine and McCrees flash.

this requires the Hanzo to first pin the enemy to a wall or ground and then get a headshot. it should do a small amount of damage (like flash and trap)
Since it is already a toggle, why not have multiple arrow-types tied to the same cooldown? You could use the 'E' / 'Shift' buttons to toggle through the arrows for each category (ie utility and special attack). Right Click could cancel the special arrow selector entirely.

This way, you could add additional capability to Hanzo, besides just damage.

For example, you could have:
Utility Arrows -
Poison Arrow (Impact + some DoT + Anti-Heal on target, no Crit)
Smoke Arrow (create a cloud of smoke at impact, Shimada IS a Ninja clan)
Sonic Arrow (Great for an Information Gathering ability)

"Special Attack" Arrows -
Explosive Arrow (give him some AoE damage on a Cooldown)
Piercing Arrow (cleave damage, passes through enemies rather than barriers, unless it breaks the barrier, maybe even make it Hit Scan or non-crit)
Scatter Arrow (Just make it stop scattering off the floor, and whatever other minor fixes you already have)

Adding this sort of versatility would increase Hanzo's utility and offense, make him more interesting and more consistent without making his attacks too powerful. Other arrow ideas could enhance his ability to hold positions or protect him from Dive.

I'm not sure how it is handled on console, but you could have his arrow options work off of numbers/scroll wheel, like Torb and Mercy.
Would Hanzo be functional with some similarities to how Genji's spread attack (Fan of Blades) works ?

After Hanzo fires a single arrow, he can hold R to charge up to 3 arrows that shoots in a horizontal spread like Genji's spread attack.

Or maybe vertical?
my suggestion

new scatter:
split into 3 arrow when contact, 75 damage each total of 225 damage

if its not hitting any target, it will split again into arrow
so 1 > hit ground > 3 arrow > hit another ground wall > 9 arrow

the second split only deals 50 damage x3

with potential 50x9 = 450 damage in SECOND BOUNCE

so its good for room clearer, but only deal 225 damage if all arrow direct hit a target (since it only splits 1 time)

sonic arrow:
new: 5 second duration 10 sec cooldown
old: 10 second duration 20 sec cooldown
02/09/2018 01:39 AMPosted by Lateralus
Why are we just limiting him to new arrow ability?? You could do a bow smack that knocks enemies back, some crazy dragon kick, a self buff from his tattoos, stealth, a zip line type arrow( for team movement). ETC

I love the ideas!!
02/08/2018 06:05 PMPosted by Enigmated
02/08/2018 06:01 PMPosted by Geoff Goodman
We're still working on him so it might be a bit early to talk about where we are right now.

What I can do is mention a few things we have tried that haven't worked so far, that might be interesting.

We tried replacing Scatter Arrow with Piercing Arrow, which was an arrow that had an extremely fast projectile speed and would pierce through enemies and barriers. This was pretty fun as a 'snipey' arrow that you could occasionally take a super long-ranged shot at an enemy widow, pharah, or just a support in their back lines. Ultimately though, it was pretty frustrating to be feeling safe behind a barrier and get headshot through it and die.

Another thing we played with was just changing Scatter significantly. The most successful version was one where it had a very fast projectile speed, could only ricochet one time, could no longer split off the floor, and had a much tighter spread. This version removed the floor scatter entirely but added some new options in either using it as a long-range sniper shot or using it more accurately off a single wall (or ceiling). This one was pretty fun but mostly just felt really hard to use consistently. There were some areas of maps where it felt useful and fun but a lot of the time there weren't any usable surfaces around to cause a split, and using your cooldown to merely increase the projectile speed of your shot didn't feel great as a common use-case.

Another crazy thing we playtested a few times was a new ability bound to his Reload key (which is currently unused). This ability would have a small animation delay (~2-3 seconds) after which your cooldowns would reset. This meant if you wanted to sacrifice some normal shots you could forcibly reset your special arrows. This was pretty interesting when paired with the Piercing Arrow idea, but felt pretty crazy with Sonic Arrow. This idea overall wasn't bad but I think its shelved for now.

We're still narrowing in on what broad direction to take him, and what would make you really glad to have him on your team etc.


Have you tried Homing Arrows?


10/10 actually laughed out loud :D
Anything which is effective at killing enemies will not be fun to fight against.
But you need to give him something of equal value if you dont want to nerf him. You even said you wanted to buff him. Give him crowd control, that the easiest way to make him more reliable.
Unless you compensate to improve survivability, he will just be a worse version of his current state. Its a shame you struggle to understand this concept.

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