"Tracer is balanced she just has no counters"

General Discussion
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02/07/2018 11:08 AMPosted by solfizz
02/07/2018 09:05 AMPosted by Feenecks
Yes her effectiveness scales with player skill but this is a problem when almost every other hero in the game doesn't scale anywhere near as well.


This is the root of the problem for sure.

I think the cap for Tracer's limitations needs to be in the area of her damage output. I've suggested that they make her headshot damage multiplier 1.5x (vs. the normal 2x) because it affects players with good aim (ie higher-skilled players) over those who don't have as good a grasp of her technical mechanics, so it wouldn't destroy her balance at the lower ranks.

I believe this could possibly keep her skill cap in line with other characters a bit but this is kind of the easy way out. Although it'd be very difficult for Blizzard to make every hero scale properly with skill at this point. Honestly this is probably just an example of poor design decisions on their part, that is having most heroes scale so poorly with growing skill.
02/07/2018 03:04 AMPosted by Hayaishi
Then how exactly is she balanced?
She isn't HOWEVER, that is down to how weak her counters are, not how strong she is. Buff Sombra, buff Sym, buff Mei, fix the critbox of Torb, a small buff + bug fixes for DF, and a very minor buff for McCree, and suddenly Tracer has plenty of counters, with 5 of them leaving F Tier.
Imagine if rock couldn’t lose to paper. Now imagine tracer is said rock.
02/07/2018 03:19 AMPosted by Avian
02/07/2018 03:12 AMPosted by Awkward
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Lucio hasn't remained unchanged since the game launched though. He's been constantly nerfed because he was OP.

But thanks for bringing up a perfect example on how mobility without any sort of counter is bad for the game.

His change only made him better and the reason why he was changed was because his auras were the size of the moon.

I can pull Lucio off the walls with a variety of abilities or hit him with an explosion to mess up his wall run... Other than that, theres really not much of him to counter, just don't stand near cliffs. His mobility comes from moving fast (not instantly) and leaping around walls but with momentum so you can actually track him (unlike genji who janks around flipping off walls and double jumping on your head)
Lucio is countered by Winston and Symmetra. Anyway, Tracer herself isn't unbalanced. She just doesn't have a solid counter, but that's not Tracer's fault.
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This is the root of the problem for sure.

I think the cap for Tracer's limitations needs to be in the area of her damage output. I've suggested that they make her headshot damage multiplier 1.5x (vs. the normal 2x) because it affects players with good aim (ie higher-skilled players) over those who don't have as good a grasp of her technical mechanics, so it wouldn't destroy her balance at the lower ranks.


I believe this could possibly keep her skill cap in line with other characters a bit but this is kind of the easy way out. Although it'd be very difficult for Blizzard to make every hero scale properly with skill at this point. Honestly this is probably just examples poor design decisions on their part, that is having most heroes scale so poorly with growing skill.


One could only imagine that one day every character would have returning gains with the amount of practice and skill that is put forth. However for the sake of argument, I think this (not necessarily meaning my suggestion on the 1.5x damage modifier, but reeling in her in SOMEhow) is the proper solution because OW is a game where every hero should have a specialty.

Right now Tracer's specialty is not limited to one but several of them. She is the hallmark "speedy" character, that's good. Let her keep her speed, mobility, and ability cooldowns.

What she also possesses that no one else does is the ability to get the first strike in any 1v1 engagements (minus Torb turret) AND deal 280+ damage in 1 second if all hits register. That's not even enough time for some people to turn around to Tracer and respond with network latency factored in. And the fact that she blink, unload, reload FOUR TIMES consecutively makes it so that if she has the aim and survival instincts she can potentially wipe out that number of squishies (or 1 tank + 2 squishies, etc...).

No one can compete with that currently. I don't think increasing her counters is a good idea because that will affect how those counters play against everyone else too.

But I definitely respect where you're coming from, and maybe one day down the road we will have a game where everyone is on a little more even footing.
Tracer's counter is outplaying her. She has tons of soft counters, but no hard counters which is how every hero should be.

You shouldn't win a 1v1 just because you pick the right character. It would make the game shallow.
02/07/2018 02:47 PMPosted by EdgiestName
Imagine if rock couldn’t lose to paper. Now imagine tracer is said rock.


Reminds me of the old World of Roguecraft video. Paraphrasing because I can't remember the exact quote.

"Rogues are Scissors. Warriors are rock. Mages, Druids, Priests, Paladins, Shamans and Hunters are Paper.

Warlocks are Mushrooms.

Paper beats Rock.

Scissors beat Paper.

Scissors also happen to beat Rock. Until Rock hits 60 at which point turns into an unstoppable killing machine (turns into The Rock) and then also beats Paper. And would beat Scissors, but it can't find Scissors, because Scissors is invisible.

So Scissors beat Paper and avoid Rock and that is called Balance"
02/07/2018 03:13 PMPosted by Dances
Tracer's counter is outplaying her. She has tons of soft counters, but no hard counters which is how every hero should be.

You shouldn't win a 1v1 just because you pick the right character. It would make the game shallow.

I honestly agree with this 100% but the problem comes into play with other heroes and how they are hard countered. If Blizzard wanted this to be a game of hard counters then they should have went all out and not have some characters like Symmetra and Torbjorn be super hard countered while others like Tracer are only soft countered.
02/07/2018 03:18 PMPosted by Awkward
02/07/2018 02:47 PMPosted by EdgiestName
Imagine if rock couldn’t lose to paper. Now imagine tracer is said rock.


Reminds me of the old World of Roguecraft video. Paraphrasing because I can't remember the exact quote.

"Rogues are Scissors. Warriors are rock. Mages, Druids, Priests, Paladins, Shamans and Hunters are Paper.

Warlocks are Mushrooms.

Paper beats Rock.

Scissors beat Paper.

Scissors also happen to beat Rock. Until Rock hits 60 at which point turns into an unstoppable killing machine (turns into The Rock) and then also beats Paper. And would beat Scissors, but it can't find Scissors, because Scissors is invisible.

So Scissors beat Paper and avoid Rock and that is called Balance"


Rock, paper, scissors is one of the shallowest games in existence. It's not what any game should aspire to be.

There's no match-up knowledge. There's no skill involved. If you pick wrong, you lose.
She is not balanced, she is too strong in general, there is a reason she is the most picked DPS in the OWL by far and a lot of pros think she needs to be nerfed.
02/07/2018 03:04 AMPosted by Hayaishi
Then how exactly is she balanced?


MOIRA ==damage ball suck face..DEAD TRACER, and GENGI
02/07/2018 03:30 PMPosted by Dances
There's no match-up knowledge. There's no skill involved. If you pick wrong, you lose.


Your disdain for RPS doesn't invalidate the concept. Hard counters in this game exist. Winston beat Widow. Widow beats Reaper. Reaper beats Winston. It's pretty much the foundation of the game that you can swap to counter, or when you're being countered.

But in practice, it's just another failure of Blizzard balance where you end up with half the roster being useless because they're ridiculously easy to counter, and the other half being god tier because they have no practical counter.
oh man, look tracer is fine.. not "balanced", but there is no such thing as perfect balance.. in politics, our lives, and overwatch.

let me ask you a question, if one hero is balanced, doesn't that make all hero's balanced?

think about it for a min before answering, ill explain more in depth of what i mean if you think 1 hero can be balanced while others are not. because i would disagree with that. Also, you have to think of this question outside of your own personal bia's for hero's/the game. if possible.
02/07/2018 03:04 AMPosted by Hayaishi
Then how exactly is she balanced?


It means that you don't change Tracer to address the problem, you fix her counters or add new ones in.

You change other heroes, and Tracer falls right into place without being touched.

Compare this to say Mercy who was outright OP and needed to be directly changed.

There is in fact a difference.
02/07/2018 03:57 PMPosted by BullzOfSteel
let me ask you a question, if one hero is balanced, doesn't that make all hero's balanced?


Personally I'm of the opinion that balance is impossible to achieve, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

Accepting any hero as balanced to the point of needing no changes is lazy. Every time a hero is changed, it changes another hero by virtue of weakening or strengthening their counters or synergies.

The idea that the game can be perfectly balanced is ludicrous. All balance should mean is that some heroes are higher priority for changes than others. Valkyrie Mercy was the biggest issue in the game last patch, but since she's nerfed, balance should move onto the next biggest problem, and then the next one, and the one after that.
People here are obsessed with such trivial stuff.

Tracer has weaknesses. Exploit them. Just because there isn't a character called "Recart" who is an exact ability-for-ability counter to her doesn't mean she's any more or less balanced than any other hero. Maybe she is, maybe she isn't, but the presence or absence of "counters" doesn't mean jack.
02/07/2018 04:24 PMPosted by jasonwocky
People here are obsessed with such trivial stuff.

Tracer has weaknesses. Exploit them. Just because there isn't a character called "Recart" who is an exact ability-for-ability counter to her doesn't mean she's any more or less balanced than any other hero. Maybe she is, maybe she isn't, but the presence or absence of "counters" doesn't mean jack.


Does that mean we shouldn't at least TRY to push for a fairer game? When Mercy Valkyrie was introduced, would you have applied your same logic and just dismiss how overly powerful she was then? While I definitely don't think Tracer is on the same levels of Valk 1.0 Mercy, she is EASILY the best DPS right now. If statistically, she was the best but not by a landslide, that's a different story; SOMEone would have to take that spot by virtue of imperfect balance. But that's certainly not the case here, especially as people consistently get better at Tracer but are unable to get the same type of gains with other characters.
02/07/2018 04:30 PMPosted by solfizz
02/07/2018 04:24 PMPosted by jasonwocky
People here are obsessed with such trivial stuff.

Tracer has weaknesses. Exploit them. Just because there isn't a character called "Recart" who is an exact ability-for-ability counter to her doesn't mean she's any more or less balanced than any other hero. Maybe she is, maybe she isn't, but the presence or absence of "counters" doesn't mean jack.


Does that mean we shouldn't at least TRY to push for a fairer game? When Mercy Valkyrie was introduced, would you have applied your same logic and just dismiss how overly powerful she was then? While I definitely don't think Tracer is on the same levels of Valk 1.0 Mercy, she is EASILY the best DPS right now. If statistically, she was the best but not by a landslide, that's a different story; SOMEone would have to take that spot by virtue of imperfect balance. But that's certainly not the case here, especially as people consistently get better at Tracer but are unable to get the same type of gains with other characters.


https://www.overbuff.com/heroes

An overall losing winrate and a 3.52% pickrate is a problem now? Yes, she does get better pickrate as you go up the ranks, but that's good game design. More skill should mean more reward. Also her winrate is comparable to all the other offensive heroes in high levels.
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Does that mean we shouldn't at least TRY to push for a fairer game? When Mercy Valkyrie was introduced, would you have applied your same logic and just dismiss how overly powerful she was then? While I definitely don't think Tracer is on the same levels of Valk 1.0 Mercy, she is EASILY the best DPS right now. If statistically, she was the best but not by a landslide, that's a different story; SOMEone would have to take that spot by virtue of imperfect balance. But that's certainly not the case here, especially as people consistently get better at Tracer but are unable to get the same type of gains with other characters.


https://www.overbuff.com/heroes

An overall losing winrate and a 3.52% pickrate is a problem now? Yes, she does get better pickrate as you go up the ranks, but that's good game design. More skill should mean more reward. Also her winrate is comparable to all the other offensive heroes in high levels.


That's not a good metric to go by and I suspect you know just as much. So Symmetra is overpowered and Winston is underpowered too then?

There are a lot of people who play Overwatch, many who play simpler characters, but also a portion of whom try someone advanced like Tracer who don't utilize her properly and hence the statistics we have. With improved skill, Tracer outshines the others. On Page 4 I've made a suggestion that would make it not so detrimental to the lower ranks, but hopefully would affect those who are more mechanically gifted.

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