Prove Genji is OP.

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02/12/2018 03:13 PMPosted by Ermor
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You did not just say that. LOL. Your argument is now invalid.


How? I stated a fact, D.Va's DM's area of effect is larger than the visual.
Because it isn't. Genji has a rein shield size deflect hit box that can deflect bullets from a radius greater than 190. You can still shoot D.Va from the side while she is using DM. Genji can deflect melee attacks and can deflect while you shoot him from the sides.
OK, jokes aside, the debate isn't about if he's OP or not... and really, addressing it as such is really trying to deflect (sorry) the issue.

Roadhog wasn't OP, but a specific scenario was. There was no statistics to back up he was being over-used, higher win-rate. But the hook-OHK was clearly a problem.

Is Genji OP? No.
Is Genji causing problems, I believe yes.

If it can happen to Roadhog, it can happen to Genji. Ideally, we'd want Blizzard to start small (no, "TO THE GROUND", please) and start with the most commonly agreed upon issue; deflect visuals.

And then go from there.
He’s not, but I’d like to see him nerfed into F-tier just so I don’t have to see him as often. Likewise, give Sym all of his mobility and let her be the new Genji.
02/12/2018 03:08 PMPosted by M3T4
02/12/2018 03:06 PMPosted by datpotatoe
But that's not the case because they're not the same thing.

D.Va's matrix doesn't deflect my bullets back at me when I'm not even aiming at her.


Same argument still applies, she still deletes your bullets when you're not aiming at her.


...which is completely different from turning them into a weapon against me.
Gonna leave this here
https://youtu.be/RPXNFt3OCUo
02/12/2018 03:22 PMPosted by billywink
02/12/2018 03:19 PMPosted by ZodiHD
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https://www.overbuff.com/heroes


You can still be OP and not have a high pick rate bc ppl just hate you/can't play that well. I really think the argument "high pick rate = OP" is old and lazy tbh.

I don't think Genji is OP but I wish this evidence would die off.


No i think winrate is a better example, even so he's near 50/50
02/12/2018 03:25 PMPosted by datpotatoe
...which is completely different from turning them into a weapon against me.


Yet again, people complaining about Genji having unique mechanics.

If you don't want your ult eaten by D.Va you don't shoot it towards her while she has DM up, do the same with Genji, don't shoot into him while he's deflecting.
02/12/2018 03:27 PMPosted by M3T4
02/12/2018 03:25 PMPosted by datpotatoe
...which is completely different from turning them into a weapon against me.


Yet again, people complaining about Genji having unique mechanics.

If you don't want your ult eaten by D.Va you don't shoot it towards her while she has DM up, do the same with Genji, don't shoot into him while he's deflecting.


But the potential of Deflect is still much higher.

And don't give me any BS about the visual of Deflect being a shadow nerf to Genji.

If Genji is propped up by the fact the visual doesn't match the box then that's cheezy as !@#$ and they need to make the visual match always, and increase the hitbox with the visual if it somehow negatively impacts his character.

And yeah, while you're at it, fix D.Va DM and Rein Hammer visuals for good measure
02/12/2018 03:27 PMPosted by M3T4
02/12/2018 03:25 PMPosted by datpotatoe
...which is completely different from turning them into a weapon against me.


Yet again, people complaining about Genji having unique mechanics.

If you don't want your ult eaten by D.Va you don't shoot it towards her while she has DM up, do the same with Genji, don't shoot into him while he's deflecting.


With no cast time and a generous hitbox don't shoot at him while hes deflecting REALLY MEANS "don't shoot at the enemy team unless you are sure Genji is nowhere nearby", the risk reward for SHOOTING ENEMIES is way too high on the risk spectrum considering deflect REFLECTS most sources of damage at any range with pixel perfect accuracy without even hampering his mobility. Deflect needs a damage spread to only accuratelyreflect damage with a maximum effective range so that he can still kill a bronze bastion, but not an across the map widow or pharah.
02/12/2018 03:12 PMPosted by M3T4
02/12/2018 03:09 PMPosted by lolster292
Um, that's one character. Most heroes have multiple counters. You're just bringing more Genji mains even more hate, if that's even possible. Most people just want his deflect hitbox fixed, maybe something done about his dash reset, since no other character that I can think of currently has something like that.


Nothing needs to be done about his dash reset, what's wrong with a hero having a unique mechanic on their abilities?

If we're gonna remove Genji's dash reset then just remove everything unique from heroes and turn this game into CoD.

Other unique mechanics include -

McCree reloading with his combat roll

Sombra being able to silence enemies

Mercy being able to bring players back to life

Zenyatta being able to see the location of an enemy he's applied a debuff to


I know im taking it out of context but I just pissed myself laughing that someone actually compered mccree roll to genjis dash reset.

I think the pro....no, no still laughing.

Right, anyway, the problem with dash reset is that it enables this ridiculous snowball effect, got 1 elimination? (that you might not have even had to do hardly anything for, just tag someone who your teammates killed) your now set up for another, got another?, heres your skill back for another, and so on. This is why you see so many genji ult wipes, more then any other hero.

Think your smart putting yourself out of dash range? Nope because I can gauntee one of your teammates wont, and when he dies, hes dashing straight to you, and then to someone else, oh you wanna try and urgently burst him down? Heres a 10 mile long deflect.

This would be like if 76 tactical visor got a duration extension for every kill it got.

Not to mention how cheesy it can be used to give genji a get out of jail free card when he overextends/mis positions. Oh blew all your skills getting this one kill?, no worries, heres your dash back to help get you back into safety.
Genjis ultimate literally has 3 safety nets removing tons of skill from the ult. It gives you swift strike if you used it. It increases your speed. It has 5 meter range and hits anything on your screen. It would be more fair if you can actually make a mistake and get punished for it and it would show more between a good and bad genji. Of course you buff him after you remove all these safety nets which also includes deflects hitbox.
02/12/2018 03:34 PMPosted by JonSnow
Deflect needs a damage spread to only accuratelyreflect damage with a maximum effective range so that he can still kill a bronze bastion, but not an across the map widow or pharah.


If Genji manages to deflect a Widowmaker shot back into her head or lead a deflected Pharah rocket into her then he outskilled them massively, it takes just as much skill, if not more skill to deflect a shot into someone as it does to fire it into someone.
02/12/2018 03:36 PMPosted by Hunterskull
It would be more fair if you can actually make a mistake and get punished for it


You can, if Genji fails his dash at any point his ult is useless from that point onward if you don't feed him a new one, just shoot him from out of his range if he doesn't have dash then he won't kill anything with it.

02/12/2018 03:36 PMPosted by EvilYoshi
Right, anyway, the problem with dash reset is that it enables this ridiculous snowball effect,


That's literally the intended effect of dash reset. You get one kill and go to your next target or get out...

02/12/2018 03:36 PMPosted by EvilYoshi
Not to mention how cheesy it can be used to give genji a get out of jail free card when he overextends/mis positions. Oh blew all your skills getting this one kill?, no worries, heres your dash back to help get you back into safety.


It's not a get out of jail free card, the only true get out of jail free card in this game is Tracer's recall. You can still shoot Genji while he's dashing and after he uses it.
I don't think he's OP, I'm gonna play Devil's advocate for a few seconds and hope I don't get swamped by downvotes.

Dash reset exists because his escape is on an 8 second CD and is it engage+escape key. If Genji stuck around for the full 8 seconds without a fast way out he'd be largely dead.

Killstealing would be an issue because by denying him the kill, you're denying him his escape vs winston/other heroes. Effectively leaving him slow as molasses.

Deflect contrary to it's nature is not a defensive tool, ever heard the Phrase "The best defense is a good offense" . It's a good defence because it turns their offences back at them, but it at most buys a few seconds until he dies, as it disables him from running away as walking/jumping backwards is slow, and wall climbing just instantly stops defect leaving him vulnerable again.

Nerfing either of those two abilities drastically would render him basically ult fodder.

What I am willing to nerf however is Deflect's cast time, as it gives people 0 time react to deflect's cast. Even DM has a tiny cast time. The cast time would give people ample time to react, and make it fairer on both parties.

Similarly, I'd like to nerf deflect's range to a 90° cone around genji, as he can currently stand outside the FOV of someone and deflect their bullets/projectiles.
02/12/2018 03:22 PMPosted by billywink
02/12/2018 03:19 PMPosted by ZodiHD
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https://www.overbuff.com/heroes


You can still be OP and not have a high pick rate bc ppl just hate you/can't play that well. I really think the argument "high pick rate = OP" is old and lazy tbh.

I don't think Genji is OP but I wish this evidence would die off.

Yeh my eyes typically glaze over when people roll out stats. Theres too much scope for changing chars throughout the variable levels and game types (ie control point, capture point, payload). Unless a professional statistician wants to break down these numbers I don't care, with the exception of extremes in pick rates (ie Mercy vs Sym).

02/12/2018 03:21 PMPosted by M3T4
02/12/2018 03:19 PMPosted by lolster292
I get it with the unique mechanic, but it gives way too much leeway to Genjis. I've seen good suggestions of people wanting him to get the final kill, or something where he has to put more effort into it.


No matter how you change it, if Genji has to deal a certain % of damage or get the final blow, it'd simply discourage teamwork in a team game and make killstealing an issue that applies only to Genji, the dash reset is fine as is.

Giving him a reset on nothing but a stern look is absurd. Reset on final blow or having done 50 damage to a killed enemy (ie a dash or two shurikens, thats not too much to ask?) would be a reasonable start.

02/12/2018 03:08 PMPosted by M3T4
02/12/2018 03:06 PMPosted by datpotatoe
But that's not the case because they're not the same thing.

D.Va's matrix doesn't deflect my bullets back at me when I'm not even aiming at her.


Same argument still applies, she still deletes your bullets when you're not aiming at her.


Yeh DM and deflect are EXTREMELY different... Consider the effects of a deflected grav/blizzard vs DM grav... =/

I've always found Genji (and Tracer) particularly obnoxious to play against because of how much leeway their abilities give them to escape danage. For Genji, dash (with resets), deflect (many heroes have no way of dealing with this and just have to stare at him), double jump (flippin out on people heads/walls makes it obnoxiously difficult to hit him), wall climb (poor Mei...), faster movement (i mean seriously?) and the obnoxious shuriken spam that has no fall off, perfect accuracy and can headshot, or the right click spam which attacks faster and ensures that your constantly doing some damage =_="

Don't misunderstand me, each ability on its own is nothing special (though I do feel like there should be more options to deal with deflect, even just melee attacks) but when you roll them all into one you have an incredibly mobile hero that is difficult to punish (much in the same way Tracer is, though her kit is more straight forward). Personally, I just want a more reliable counter that just Winston, as he usually has other things to do rather just chase away Genji (usually just pushing him back as a good Genji will use the environment and wall climb/double jump out of Winston's reach). Sombra is getting some changes so hopefully that'll help. Mei is too, but I think they're just focusing on ammo variations and crap like that =/
Giving him a reset on nothing but a stern look is absurd. Reset on final blow or having done 50 damage to a killed enemy (ie a dash or two shurikens, thats not too much to ask?) would be a reasonable start.


A reasonable start to an unreasonable change.

There's no reason to change his dash reset, it's perfect as is.

Changing it will only make kill stealing an issue.
02/12/2018 03:04 PMPosted by M3T4
02/12/2018 03:00 PMPosted by Abacabb
Prove he's not OP.


-Tied for the potential longest cooldown on a mobility skill in the game

-No self sustain

-Melee ultimate which can easily be shutdown if you have decent aim

-Useless against tanks

-Can't do his job against a competent Winston

-Easy to burst down once he uses deflect

-Lowest DPS on his primary / secondary fire out of every hero in the game (even Mercy is higher)

-Hindered by many bugs, including wallclimb which is still bugged, even after the patch

Have you seen his ult sword swing, !@#$ has more range than a Reinhardt hammer, does way more damage that it too, and has the 180* angle.
His visuals are all messed up, which makes him op, instances when the enemy should have survived to the flying Genji ends up dieing to his deceiving range.
Mind you D.V.A is visually accurate, you just can not see it from the front, the things disappear at the beams range and thats it.
Based on visuals alone, Genji is the most overpowered hero in the game, Genji's deflect is the Reinhardt barrier that shoots back at you.
02/12/2018 03:13 PMPosted by Ermor
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You did not just say that. LOL. Your argument is now invalid.


How? I stated a fact, D.Va's DM's area of effect is larger than the visual.


I'm neutral on the subject, however do you have any proof to back up that DM's hitbox is larger than the visual? Just curious, I've seen people say this a few times but I've never seen any evidence
02/12/2018 05:04 PMPosted by AwesomeGuy09
Have you seen his ult sword swing, !@#$ has more range than a Reinhardt hammer,


It has the EXACT SAME range as Reinhardt's hammer. Just goes to show how much Genji haters truly know about the thing they complain about.

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