The fallacy that DPS has more impact than tank/support

Competitive Discussion
This is a team game, and I wish those kinds of matches were the norm. It will never happen while people idolize dps, and the general public thinks they are the only high impact heroes. The truth is that every role matters, and the dps not getting frags is a whole team issue. It usually means everyone if failing at their job.


Until this game starts to seriously promote 6 stacks against 6 stacks this game will always be a crapshoot when it comes to good games and whatnot.

Trust me the games would be far more consistent with a clan system.
It always depends on who you have in the game. Sometimes a crazy good Widowmaker or Genji will just wreck the enemy team. Other times, a Moira or a Lucio will be constantly giving healing, and keeping everyone alive. In other occasions, a Rein or Winston will be an amazing initiator, and allow everyone on your team to overwhelm the enemy. Then sometimes a Zarya or a D.Va will bubble and DM when it is needed, while racking up a nice amount of kills as well.
02/04/2018 02:49 PMPosted by LJRoss27
what if your dps cant get kills with the space you make for them

Play offtank.
02/04/2018 06:43 PMPosted by SleepyBear
02/04/2018 02:49 PMPosted by LJRoss27
what if your dps cant get kills with the space you make for them

Play offtank.

Can't count the times I've played Roadhog and gotten gold damage and silver healing with a 2/2/2 comp. It's a team effort and unfortunately 1 good player doesn't balance out 4 bad ones
I'm a tank main and I agrre that tank role is initiation and zoning. DPS takes role on finishing. Which means no matter how can youdo well as a tank, if the dps is not good enough you cannot win. All I can find for the dps I encountered recently they are not even average dps in my rank. Like I find feeders and idiots every time. Therefore no matter how I've done, it's just a waste.
this all wrong. dps decide things, in almost all cases.

simple reason.. no matter what kind of map you play, enemy players must be killed.

youll notice when you lose games, its cuz enemies werent dying. we've all experienced this.

stop trying to reinvent the wheel with flawed logic.
If a tank is performing, and a healer is performing, but you aren't getting kills, you'll lose because you'll never break the defense or halt the push.

However, there are dps that are specifically designed to function outside of the effective space a tank creates or that can effective keep themselves up without a healer tending to their hp pool

Therefore, a failing dps can ruin a game, while an amazing dps can still perform and carry without a substantial input from the other members of the team against a team in a similar position.

These are extremes and most of the time neither of these perfect idealistic situations are happening, but they still exist. It's not that dps define a game 100% of the time or even much more of the time, but a failing dps has a disproportionate effect on a game where the design does not allow tanks or supports to effectively pick up the slack of a dps, with some strides being made to curb the reality of this being the case being moderately successful at dealing with the issue of not being able to fix slots based on your team's performance when they won't switch, unlike the very forgiving pool of dps heroes.
The funny part is that people think they are good with dps, sometimes when they are srsly not...just yesterday I had shimada brothers on my team. I was hog and rein, hollywood on attack. I had 45 eliminations. And almost 11 k damage over the two rounds, Every fight I had 2 picks. Still they cant kill anything but think they are playing good. Hanzo dosent use the high ground and I have to tell him 100 times on voice chat to get the hell out of that surveillance room at the choke ( on the right ) while rein is shielding for him. The healer and I went balistic and we did carry them in the end . Goes to show you that with good communication, and understanding you can carry as support and tank. And yes as long as the dps is hitting something it can work :)
We all know all the roles are important when you play the game as a team. But to climb in PBSR means to solo carry as DPS. They're two entirely different conversations. If we had decent grouping/guilding tools, there would be other options to escape PBSR and all roles would be valid again.
...Now if you asked me if I carried that game, I would tell you that the tank, off tank, zen destruction orb, and dps coordination with us did as much to win as I did.


Because you have that mindset, you're able to actually think coherently.

Look back through all the complaint threads. You can count with one hand the number of times they don't imply they were "carrying" their team.
02/04/2018 02:08 PMPosted by Zerosix
02/04/2018 02:03 PMPosted by DabbyDabDab
Your underlying premise is wrong, that providing sufficient information to stupid people will somehow change their behaviour. The truth is you can't fix stupid, if you could those people wouldn't be stupid in the first place.

You were able to come to this conclusion without the addition of this "feedback" system you're requesting. Anyone else who has played a reasonable amount of the game and isn't an idiot could also arrive at the same conclusion that a team based game with "tank," "support," and "dps" based classes is best played when all classes are appropriately utilized.
Then why is the forums filled with DPS threads? Nerf threads about dps who have much less lower winrates, and people who think that they are the most important characters in the game? Obviously the game does a poor job highlighting tanks and dps, even if people know they are important.


Because there are more stupid people in the world than what you're giving allowance for. If there is such thing as an "average" intelligence, then by definition 50% of the population is below average. Assuming you're not in that demographic, chances are you're surrounded by stupid people. Notice how an overwhelming amount of the posts on here confuse their anecdotal experiences with the game for actual empirical facts? Oh wait.... you yourself have confused the anecdotal observations of other people whining on the forums for empirical evidence of a problem....
It's funny cuz it is well known that killing enemy supports is absolutely critical to winning a fight. And there is massive discrepancy in death avoidance skill among support players due to variance in game knowledge and positioning, yet for some reason these more cognitively demanding skill sets are shunned in comparison to being more mechanically skilled i.e. Thoughtless head clicking.
Last game as Mercy

25k heal
Only died 3 times in a 15 minutes match

Still losing the game.

My Junkrat solo'd by Hanzo
My Genji getting solo'd by Lucio

Same If I play D.va (70% win rate)

25 k damage
50-8

Still losing

Only Dps matter in this game if you are Tracer/Genji you can carry any single game by yourself.
02/04/2018 01:36 PMPosted by Zerosix
This post is not designed to marginalize the dps players, or make it seem like they are low impact. They are extremely important, and like the other role, necessary to win games and team fights. However, people often think that DPS have the most impact in the game. That is why they demand dps swaps, or swap to dps to try and "carry." This completely false, but the game supports this belief by having a notification and medal system that only highlights dps.

Main Tank
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If your main tanks are not doing their job well, or are being out played by the enemy tanks, you will lose. Main Tanks dictate the flow, speed, and space of the match. If your tanks are not taking space you will never get past a choke, or hold at a choke. They engage enemy tanks who encroach on your teams space, and deal good cleave damage on those in their territory. Rein and Orisa block off the enemy advance, and winston forces disruption into the enemy line by taking and creating space with cleave damage and a barrier to interrupt enemy support from healing their team. They get the least amount of credit in the stat page, and the in game notification does not highlight their high impact, unless it pops in the kill feed. This is a major problem, and is largely the reason that no one want to play them. It also is hard to pinpoint if they are doing well or poorly, even if you are playing them.

Offtank
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Offtanks glue the front line and the back line together. They protect both through shielding with Zarya barriers, body blocking with hog, or by using Dvas defense matrix. Their role is to aid maintanks in creating and maintaining space, and peel for their support when being pressured by flankers. Roadhog does this by punishing people that encroach on your teams space, or displacing enemies when taking space. He also has the ability to body block with his massive hp pool, and 50 percent damage reduction cooldown. All 3 major off tanks have situations where they have extremely potent burst dps, dva being exceptional at it, and Zarya becomes one of the strongest characters in the game when max charged. The only time you see the game give any notification of impactful offtank plays is when they are in the kill feed, medal, or get play of the game. This is a major problem, as you never see when they save your main tank, support, or dps, or create the space needed to win.

Support
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Support is one of the most important and impactful roles in the game, but you could not be blamed for not noticing. Supports keep tanks, dps, and the other support alive when they move to and from dangerous positions. They enable dps to stay alive, and boost their damage to confirm kills. They heal the tanks when they are trying to create and hold space, and without them, the enemy team would run you over. Supports also are supposed to peel for one another when flankers attack the back line. They heal and damage boost each other to pressure flankers off. A zen that is being damage boosted and healed by mercy turns into a murder machine vs enemy flankers in the backline, and his orbs and damage in return assist the mercy when she is focused. Moira heals and pressures flankers by design, and Lucio boopes and disrupts them. Their ults are also in the strongest tiers in the game. Ults like trans and sound barrier can be used to support when applying pressure, or negate enemy ults, often times multiple ults at a time. The healers also have lower, but consistent dps, but this is still a major part of their kit. It is normal for a support to do 50-75%+ the healing numbers of an enemy dps, do 35%+ the damage, and provide game changing ults. Discord itself is considered to be one of the strongest non ult abilities in the game. They had to be nerfed a few times in alpha/beta, and several since launch due to how strong they are. They are often times some of strongest characters in the game, but rarely are they good duelist. The in-game notification system, medal, and play of the game system does not highlight their impact. We never see when they negate enemy ults, save allies with emergency heals, or pressure a flanker off the other support. This is a huge problem.

Closing statements
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People assume dps is the most impactful, but they are wrong, and have been wrong. This is why Dva, Zen, Junkrat(great vs poor enemy tank play,) and Orisa have the highest win rates. Notice how Genji, Tracer, Soldier, and others are not anywhere near the top 10 in winrates? It is because tanks and healers are incredibly important, they are the support structure that keeps the team working, and form clean engagements. The game, as it currently, is NOT designed to highlight their plays. The medal system mostly benefits dps, as does the play of the game system. The kill feed and elimination notification is the loudest in game, and it mostly benefits/congratulates dps players. This is a huge game flaw, and is the biggest reason most want to play dps. They get all the credit, team gratification, and the dopamine hits from being patted on the back by the game.

TLDR
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We really need a notification and medal rework to make tanks and healers feel as rewarding as dps do. We need the game to be able to show just how large an impact that tanks and healers have. Until then people are just going to continue to assume dps are the most important role, and the only role who can carry a game.

At the end of the day Ryujehong is considered the best player in the world, and he is a support main, just sayin'.


Perfectly said, blizzard fix your !@#$ before everyone leave the most popular game you’ve ever created
02/04/2018 02:01 PMPosted by Zerosix
zens burst fire


...nailed it. So like, dude, like, ya know like.. Damage and stuff? It makes things happen?

ZOMGWTFBBQ

who would've thought, eh
Disagree OP.

While yes, everyone needs to play well; DPS is the linchpin.

Don't get me wrong, a good Rein can wreck... IF he knows when to do it, but it's not his job to go chasing people around swinging. It's to create an anchor point. He creates and holds the line. He can't do much about the enemy dps standing far off breaking his shield and eating his armor. If the dps doesn't kill them eventually he will fall.

This is even more true for healers. (Zen and Moira not as much). You can only heal so much, you can only duck, dodge, dip, dive and... dodge for so long. If the enemy isn't being killed they will eventually get you.

DPS can kill just fine without a tank or heals. But a tank or healer without dps won't accomplish much.
If the enemy isn't dying, no amount of space or heals is going to help you.
I think it's more about inconsistency and popping off.
Every player has a game in 100 where they play way above their usual skill.
Doing that on support/tank will not guarantee a win. Theer is only so much they can do, a tank is still relying on their supports and a support is still vulnerable.
Meanwhile a Tracer/McCree/Genji/Soldier/Widow/Hanzo etc. can literally 1v4 if they pop off with minimal team support and it feels just way better.
02/04/2018 03:16 PMPosted by LJRoss27
I totally agree with you that Tanks and Supports are the most impact full, but I think that mostly applies to organized play such as OWL. Overwatch's Competitive playlist is highly random, unbalanced (team wise), and deathmatch-esque, in my opinion. I've been playing for 4-1/2 season now everywhere from diamond(3350) to silver(when I first got placed at 1700). In lower SRs nobody really cares about teamwork which is why you see many people cry that DPS carries games, because in lower SRs fragging out is often encourage and rewarded. I will say though that when I got to diamond I definitely noticed that more people knew that Tanks were the most important and played around the play style of the teams tanks. However I've been playing in high gold to low plat recently and can safely say that there is a huge emphasis on DPS carry. I think the culture of Overwatch competitive needs to change drastically if we can ever safely say that "Tanks and Support play wins game".


Pretty much this^^

It is pointless to heal and create space as tank when you effectively have no dps that can utilize it (i am not even going to start on 5 dps 1 healer situation that is very common in lower ranks). That is why dps does have bigger impact on match outcome than tank/healer.

I had plenty of matches where i had gold healing/elims/kills/dmg/obj time as flipping Zen. How much more do i have to do to win? Typical case in low ranks: i call tranq, we can push with it. What does team do? Rein still has shield up in tranq, our dps runs away from me and then harasses me for not healing them. This is every day situation.
Tanks are the best. If you don't have a tank up to Comp standards, work on it.
I think you can make the MOST difference as a tank. And a couple of them might even feel more like DPS. So, you still get to see some gold medals if you like that!
Every hero should be on fire for the same amount of time. Across all players. If this is not the case, blizzard should fix it. Maybe just by adjusting the fire meter.

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