"Moira can 1v1 DPS without any help!"

General Discussion
02/19/2018 09:37 PMPosted by Whiskeyjack
Moira has 3.5 elims/death

1.3% of that is solo kills.

Moira thus has 0.063 solo kills/death

Zenyatta has 2.0 elims/death

5.1% of that is solo kills

Zenyatta thus has

0.102 solo kills/death

Now considering Moira is far more survivable than Zenyatta, those numbers do say quite a bit.


You're taking this a lot farther than the basic numbers can go. Actual hero playstyles must be taken into the equation. Anyone with a large chance of 100-0ing the enemy in one go (Hanzo, Widowmaker, Zen right click) are going to be much higher on the list. That doesn't mean that Widowmaker is a 1v1 god. Much like Widow, watch any pro Zenyatta play, and notice how many random "solo" kills they get with their right click. That doesn't necessarily mean that Zenyatta is a better versus Genji and Tracer than Moira is, just that he fits this statistic much better. Another thing to keep in mind is that Moira has to spend more of her time channeling her heal, whereas Zenyatta can focus his attention on instakilling a backline support with his rightclick. Again, there's not really much that we can draw from this.


That is indeed true. But then we have heroes like Sombra, who rely heavily on teammate contribution, and even they have 2x the solo kills/death of Moira.

And if you look at chip damage flankers who love feeding off damaged enemies (Genji and Tracer), we see they get 3x the solo kills/death.

Yes the numbers must be taken with a pinch of salt. But Moira is squarely at the bottom with chip damage tanks like Orisa, Reinhardt and the other non damaging supports.

Playstyle is a very important factor in this, but considering that even passive tanks with very rare solo kill opportunities are matching or surpassing her, she really isnt all that she is made out to be.

02/19/2018 09:40 PMPosted by Awkward
02/19/2018 09:18 PMPosted by go123452
1) Moira is getting help for the vast majority of her eliminations. That means that despite her much acclaimed dueling potential, she doesnt seem to be using it much, even when attacked by flankers.

2) Flankers simply arent getting into these so called 1v1 do or die duels as often as they claim to be. Seems like it either often ends with Moira getting back up, or one party running away from the fight. It very rarely seems to end up with Moira solo killing the flanker. That means that if a flanker is saying that they are consistently getting into 1v1 duels vs Moira and dying, that something about the story doesnt quite add up.


While I argue that Moira's a fantastic hero for dueling, both #1 and #2 are excellent points.

On paper, Moira is a great duelist against flankers since her sustained but reliable damage and her huge amount of self-healing means that she's a tough cookie to beat, but her low (and pretty easily escapable) damage means that any flanker worth their salt might get chased off by her, but they're unlikely to die without assistance from her teammates.

But we have to acknowledge that Moira's win condition is far different from other duelists. If a McCree, Tracer or Genji can't secure the kill, they've essentially lost the duel since the high HPS and low cooldowns of Overwatch means that their target can come back into the fight, full HP with cooldowns in a short duration.

But Moira's win condition by nature of a throughput (rather than utility based, like Lucio or Zenyatta) healer is closer to Mercy. She wins the duel if she survives since that means she can continue contributing healing to the team. If she can kill the Genji or Tracer, that's fantastic, but she's served just as well by forcing them back to their team (or a healthpack) and keeping herself and her co-healer alive.


Moira's win condition is less forgiving than Mercy actually, Moira needs to come out of the fight with a decent amount of health, be either a reasonable distance from the rest of her team or have fade off cooldown. And even then her team is gonna be a bit weak on healing for a bit since she probably burnt her orb.

If the flanker managed to push Moira away from the team and burnt both of her cooldowns, the flanker won even if they had to retreat. They effectively removed the enemy healer from the fight for a considerable duration without losing their own lives, and it is much faster for them to get back to their healers/healthpack and get topped up than it is for Moira to get to her front.
That is indeed true. But then we have heroes like Sombra, who rely heavily on teammate contribution, and even they have 2x the solo kills/death of Moira.

And if you look at chip damage flankers who love feeding off damaged enemies (Genji and Tracer), we see they get 3x the solo kills/death.

Yes the numbers must be taken with a pinch of salt. But Moira is squarely at the bottom with chip damage tanks like Orisa, Reinhardt and the other non damaging supports.


Comparing her to DPS has even more limitations. If offense heroes are not getting kills/solo kills, then they are not contributing to the fight. Arguably, especially in the flankers' case, many of them are built to be the predator in 1v1 scenarios. If they can't bring in those picks they are useless. They can devote half of their time in trying to win those 1v1s. On the other hand, Moira brings raw healing output utility. Ideally for Moira she'd have less 1v1 duels, because it would mean more time using orbs for chip damage which means more heal juice that she can start using to water the tanks. Moiras rarely hunt down someone to 1v1 them.

Additionally, I must say that I disagree that those tanks are passive. Rein's charge, his earthshatter, and even his hammer all give him a lot of opportunities for solo kills. All that he is without his kills is a 2000 hp barrier. Again, hero playstyle comes into account. Rein gets a lot of choppy high burst hits that will quickly grant him a solo kill, whereas Moira does more consistent lower damage - which means more time for the enemy to run and fail their mission, or for someone else to come in and lend a hand.
You know the whole argument about how Genji can get a full SS reset because he did 1 damage on someone who eventually died to someone else?

The exact opposite applies here.

Moira can do 199 damage to someone, but if 1 single stray bullet happens to hit them in a fire fight, it doesn't count as a solo kill. This is especially likely considering Moira's vamp is more of a DoT than an instant burst, and her role as a support means she'll be closer to her team, increasing the odds of a teammate being there to throw in that 1 damage.

If you want to talk numbers, think of the factors affecting them too.
02/19/2018 09:33 PMPosted by BraveHearted
No one likes having to put in more work to kill something else that requires less work to kill them. This is fact. Moira will always be hated no matter what happens as long as her life leech exist. I personally could give less of a fk.


Dude, no one likes getting killed in general.
I find it funny how Zenyatta is supposed to be this peaceful guy but in game he’s charging up his balls to shoot them at your face
02/19/2018 09:55 PMPosted by Slyther0829
You know the whole argument about how Genji can get a full SS reset because he did 1 damage on someone who eventually died to someone else?

The exact opposite applies here.

Moira can do 199 damage to someone, but if 1 single stray bullet happens to hit them in a fire fight, it doesn't count as a solo kill. This is especially likely considering Moira's vamp is more of a DoT than an instant burst, and her role as a support means she'll be closer to her team, increasing the odds of a teammate being there to throw in that 1 damage.

If you want to talk numbers, think of the factors affecting them too.


If thats the case, that automatically invalidates the fight being a 1v1 duel. Even if the other guy completely misses every single shot except 1, their presence is going to change the behavior of the flanker. You may expend more blinks to get into range, you may recall early, you may hit deflect to ward off their fire, etc.

So basically if you are fighting a Moira and a Mccree, and the Mccree misses basically every single shot, you still dont get to call that a 1v1 duel and complain when Moira kills you.

02/19/2018 09:55 PMPosted by Whiskeyjack
That is indeed true. But then we have heroes like Sombra, who rely heavily on teammate contribution, and even they have 2x the solo kills/death of Moira.

And if you look at chip damage flankers who love feeding off damaged enemies (Genji and Tracer), we see they get 3x the solo kills/death.

Yes the numbers must be taken with a pinch of salt. But Moira is squarely at the bottom with chip damage tanks like Orisa, Reinhardt and the other non damaging supports.


Comparing her to DPS has even more limitations. If offense heroes are not getting kills/solo kills, then they are not contributing to the fight. Arguably, especially in the flankers' case, many of them are built to be the predator in 1v1 scenarios. If they can't bring in those picks they are useless. They can devote half of their time in trying to win those 1v1s. On the other hand, Moira brings raw healing output utility. Ideally for Moira she'd have less 1v1 duels, because it would mean more time using orbs for chip damage which means more heal juice that she can start using to water the tanks. Moiras rarely hunt down someone to 1v1 them.

Additionally, I must say that I disagree that those tanks are passive. Rein's charge, his earthshatter, and even his hammer all give him a lot of opportunities for solo kills. All that he is without his kills is a 2000 hp barrier. Winston also has a low amount of solo kills - but only because the nature of dive mandates that he share kills.


That is true, but if we look at the people she has more solo kills than we have...

Lucio
Ana
Mercy
Orisa

3 of those are clear cut duhs!

I would imagine that the "best 1v1 duelist" in the game should be performing better than just Orisa. Otherwise we would just have a Reaper situation, where he has theoretical stupidly high damage output, but he never gets into a situation where he gets to use it.
02/19/2018 10:02 PMPosted by go123452
That is true, but if we look at the people she has more solo kills than we have...

Lucio
Ana
Mercy
Orisa

3 of those are clear cut duhs!

I would imagine that the "best 1v1 duelist" in the game should be performing better than just Orisa. Otherwise we would just have a Reaper situation, where he has theoretical stupidly high damage output, but he never gets into a situation where he gets to use it.


It's just not her priority. Most of the other heroes above her are focused securing on eliminations. A Moira focuses prioritizes her healing output and surviving a dive. If she gets a Genji low she's generally not going to chase if her teammates need healing. In the same situation, most other heroes are going to give chase unless it means overextending, because they can prioritize the kill above nearly all else. Just going through the hero list, the only two other heroes that I could even imagine having a lower solo kill count are Winston, and that's just because the entire meta is based around Winston assisting in kills, and Zenyatta, who I already addressed.
02/19/2018 10:14 PMPosted by Whiskeyjack
02/19/2018 10:02 PMPosted by go123452
That is true, but if we look at the people she has more solo kills than we have...

Lucio
Ana
Mercy
Orisa

3 of those are clear cut duhs!

I would imagine that the "best 1v1 duelist" in the game should be performing better than just Orisa. Otherwise we would just have a Reaper situation, where he has theoretical stupidly high damage output, but he never gets into a situation where he gets to use it.


It's just not her priority. Most of the other heroes above her are focused securing on eliminations. A Moira focuses prioritizes her healing output and surviving a dive. If she gets a Genji low she's generally not going to chase if her teammates need healing. In the same situation, most other heroes are going to give chase unless it means overextending, because they can prioritize the kill above nearly all else. Just going through the hero list, the only two other heroes that I could even imagine having a lower solo kill count are Winston, and that's just because the entire meta is based around Winston assisting in kills, and Zenyatta, who I already addressed.


Indeed thats true, but no one claims Winston is an exceptionally strong 1v1 duelist. He gets stomped by a large portion of the DPS cast in a legit 1v1.

Saying that she is an exceptionally strong duelist, then going on to say that she shouldnt be getting into 1v1 duels, is the Reaper issue. Reaper has one of the highest DPS at close range. That means jack squat if he rarely gets into those situations.

Similarly, saying Moira is OP because she is a great 1v1 duelist is moot if she rarely gets into 1v1s.
Moira’s fine, if she’s going around solo flanking you or your team than you need to get it together. On a side note there’s a bug with her where her health bar doesn’t show up when you hit her. Can be obnoxious at times.
02/19/2018 09:31 PMPosted by go123452
...

Ah, I misunderstood then. I thought you were basing it off of actual flat number of solo kills per game. Those statistics are based off a percentage of your total elims. Moira's elims are much higher due to chip damage from orbs, so she's bound to get a lower percentage of solo kills - even if she does 100-0 a flanker now and then. On the other hand, Mercy rarely whips her pistol out, which means lower total elims, but when she does decide to take matters into her own hands while valking she's going to 100-0 those enemies (Mercy is actually 7th on the list, so I'm kind of limiting any conclusion that I'm drawing from the list as a whole).


Yep but look at the math I followed it up with.

Moira has 0.056 solo kills/death.

Zenyatta beats her with 0.1 solo kills/death.

Considering that Zenyatta isnt exactly a good 1v1 duelist, that should say a fair bit.


I fail against zen 85% of my battles against him.... on every character
02/19/2018 10:18 PMPosted by go123452
Indeed thats true, but no one claims Winston is an exceptionally strong 1v1 duelist. He gets stomped by a large portion of the DPS cast in a legit 1v1.

Saying that she is an exceptionally strong duelist, then going on to say that she shouldnt be getting into 1v1 duels, is the Reaper issue. Reaper has one of the highest DPS at close range. That means jack squat if he rarely gets into those situations.

Similarly, saying Moira is OP because she is a great 1v1 duelist is moot if she rarely gets into 1v1s.


You do not want to be the undefended support that Winston goes after. Zenyattas are a light snack, and Anas are dinner. Winston can choose his solo kills and not stop until he gets them. He's not going to get a bastion or a hog, but he can dance around them and go for the ones that he destroys.

On the other hand, it's simply from the Moira's own choice that she's not getting into 1v1 duels. It doesn't make her bad at it. The heroes that she does 1v1 are heroes that come to her and that, if losing, will then run, and she has little desire to chase them down. Winston is always going to be diving in, and Moira is usually going to be healing. You can't compare a part time job to a full time job. Any character whose full time job is damage certainly should have a higher solo kill count than Moira. Remember that Moira is near the top of the chain in actual heal count (at the top in GM by quite a bit), which is her role.

The statistic itself is just too ambiguous, it can be used by either side to practically the same effect. One side: see, she can't be very good at solo kills if she doesn't have many compared to other heroes. The other side: see, she manages to top healing charts and still gets almost as many solo kills as heroes that focus on it.
So, in game, it's obvious that she's great at 1v1, but you're resorting to trying to use statistics on a website to prove she isn't? Heh.
Them DPS would be like 'That's so OP! Healers should be like Mercy and have 0."
If thats the case, that automatically invalidates the fight being a 1v1 duel. Even if the other guy completely misses every single shot except 1, their presence is going to change the behavior of the flanker. You may expend more blinks to get into range, you may recall early, you may hit deflect to ward off their fire, etc.

So basically if you are fighting a Moira and a Mccree, and the Mccree misses basically every single shot, you still dont get to call that a 1v1 duel and complain when Moira kills you.


But I'm not talking about 2v1's where Moira's teammate is just god awful.

I mean say there's a scenario where you go take on the Moira in a 1v1 while her team is preoccupied with yours. They aren't concerned about you in the slightest, but it's entirely possible for a stray bullet to just go out and hit you. They didn't mean to, but they still did, thus taking away the solo kill. And as I said, since Moira's damage isn't a quick burst, that means she needs time to kill you, and the longer that time is, the more likely that unintended bullet is to hit you.
02/19/2018 11:03 PMPosted by Brand
So, in game, it's obvious that she's great at 1v1, but you're resorting to trying to use statistics on a website to prove she isn't? Heh.


Yes yes, and we have people who claim Ana is fine in game. Just because it is your opinion doesnt make it correct until you can justify it.

Nothing is more biased than anecdotal evidence.

02/19/2018 11:17 PMPosted by Slyther0829
If thats the case, that automatically invalidates the fight being a 1v1 duel. Even if the other guy completely misses every single shot except 1, their presence is going to change the behavior of the flanker. You may expend more blinks to get into range, you may recall early, you may hit deflect to ward off their fire, etc.

So basically if you are fighting a Moira and a Mccree, and the Mccree misses basically every single shot, you still dont get to call that a 1v1 duel and complain when Moira kills you.


But I'm not talking about 2v1's where Moira's teammate is just god awful.

I mean say there's a scenario where you go take on the Moira in a 1v1 while her team is preoccupied with yours. They aren't concerned about you in the slightest, but it's entirely possible for a stray bullet to just go out and hit you. They didn't mean to, but they still did, thus taking away the solo kill. And as I said, since Moira's damage isn't a quick burst, that means she needs time to kill you, and the longer that time is, the more likely that unintended bullet is to hit you.


If an unintended bullet hit you, that means it is probably a big brawl going on and Moira is on the fringes, so you had to expend resources getting to the Moira. Considering that most cries that Moira is op assumes her cds are off in a duel, I'll point out you are now charging a fresh support with a depleted dps hero head on.

You would not do that to a tank. You would not do that to a dps. Why should you do that to a support. Flankers should approach from a direction that doesnt have them charging into enemy fire.

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