Flying during Valkyrie is boring, so why rework Mercy?

General Discussion
02/16/2018 07:46 AMPosted by Dva
Valkyrie feels so similar in power level to Coalescence yet it charges much slower.


THIS
I actually like the new mercy. It’s a lot harder to rez anyone and it takes some skill and brain power to play her. You actually have to calculate where you’re going and whether or not you should rez. I’m not sure why people keep saying that mercy is never attacked when in Valk because I get shot at all the time and have to keep flying around or I die. It also depends on what you’re playing. If you’re in QP then yeah you’re not likely to get shot at and rezing is easier. In comp the other team goes out of their way to either kill me in Valk or take me out before I can use it. I die pretty often if I have no one to fly to or my team isn’t helping me out. That’s just my two cents.
02/16/2018 09:22 AMPosted by Ravna
I actually like the new mercy. It’s a lot harder to rez anyone and it takes some skill and brain power to play her. You actually have to calculate where you’re going and whether or not you should rez. I’m not sure why people keep saying that mercy is never attacked when in Valk because I get shot at all the time and have to keep flying around or I die. It also depends on what you’re playing. If you’re in QP then yeah you’re not likely to get shot at and rezing is easier. In comp the other team goes out of their way to either kill me in Valk or take me out before I can use it. I die pretty often if I have no one to fly to or my team isn’t helping me out. That’s just my two cents.
Once again, I would love to know what you people were doing with mass rez.
I don't get why Blizzard insist in calling her rework a success. It ABSOLUTELY WAS NOT! If it had been a success we wouldn't have seen the 5 or 6 consecutive nerfs ending with the final nail in the coffin for the enjoyable Mercy playstyle that we used to have.


Obligatory “just because there were multiple iterations does not make the rework as a whole a failure. It just means it wasn’t finished when they pushed it live.”

Also have to add the “it was a success because it accomplished what it intended.”

But on the bright side you actually bring up a new point.
“Flying is less engaging.”
However, you have to see it from their point of view. They see Mercy players literally refusing to take part in the fights in order to use Mass Res. They now force the Mercy into being a part of the fight with Valk. The fun factor is subjective, the important part is you don’t benefit from completely disengaging and running away anymore. And if Hide and Res meant completely disengaging as a whole, then any change that forces you to actually take part in the fight at all is more engaging by default.
She’s still technically a good hero, can comfortably do her job. I don’t think she’s weak at all. Balance is not a problem.

However, she is nowhere near as engaging to play, probably the least fun she’s ever been. Getting a Res off is not easy, since it’s usually front line heroes you’re going to lose and it’s not usually worth the risk putting yourself in the same position someone just died to bring them back. That kind of broadly discounts that she even has an E, never mind the infrequency of its use.

So what’s left? Even less than she had pre rework. The Chain Heal is for the most part redundant and wasted, you’re still focusing the main target of damage, anything else is as incidental as the damage being taken by others which would be typically survivable anyway.

Chain boost is the only significant bonus from the ult; but it’s just facilitating other players.

There’s no space in her kit for actually achieving anything on her own.

That’s reflected in her non existent fire time and equally rare potgs which at best come from damage boosting an ult by a player you just ressed. That usually goes to said player though.

If she can’t do anything she engaging to watch, how do you feel that’s like actually playing her? You’re broadly a spectator rather than a participant.
02/16/2018 07:06 AMPosted by Qwazi
Did they not intend the original Mercy rework to make her more engaging and fun? Well, turns out that flying during Valkyrie is super boring. All you do is press spacebar until you're so far up in the skybox that nobody can hit you, because your healing beams are still long enough for you to heal everyone.

I don't get why Blizzard insist in calling her rework a success. It ABSOLUTELY WAS NOT! If it had been a success we wouldn't have seen the 5 or 6 consecutive nerfs ending with the final nail in the coffin for the enjoyable Mercy playstyle that we used to have.

So, not only did they ruin a balanced character by making her overpowered. They proclaimed that flying was going to be so awesome when in fact it's super boring. I don't get why they had to rework Mercy to begin with. Why was there a need for such a drastic rework that just ended up ruining Mercy completely? Why Blizzard, Why? Why not make frequent but smaller changes?

Edit: I'm not saying they should revert Mercy. I'm just questioning their reasoning and development procedures. I'm frankly fine with having reworks, but don't call a failure a success and call it a day...


Not to mention you don't even have to swap beams now. Hold it on one person and it hits everyone. For this engaging ult I actually do less APM than normal mercy
02/16/2018 09:25 AMPosted by WildElements
02/16/2018 09:22 AMPosted by Ravna
I actually like the new mercy. It’s a lot harder to rez anyone and it takes some skill and brain power to play her. You actually have to calculate where you’re going and whether or not you should rez. I’m not sure why people keep saying that mercy is never attacked when in Valk because I get shot at all the time and have to keep flying around or I die. It also depends on what you’re playing. If you’re in QP then yeah you’re not likely to get shot at and rezing is easier. In comp the other team goes out of their way to either kill me in Valk or take me out before I can use it. I die pretty often if I have no one to fly to or my team isn’t helping me out. That’s just my two cents.
Once again, I would love to know what you people were doing with mass rez.


I really didn’t find using mass rez very difficult but it was definitely harder to use than the instant rezzes.
02/16/2018 09:27 AMPosted by Slyther0829
But on the bright side you actually bring up a new point.
“Flying is less engaging.”
However, you have to see it from their point of view. They see Mercy players literally refusing to take part in the fights in order to use Mass Res. They now force the Mercy into being a part of the fight with Valk. The fun factor is subjective, the important part is you don’t benefit from completely disengaging and running away anymore. And if Hide and Res meant completely disengaging as a whole, then any change that forces you to actually take part in the fight at all is more engaging by default.

So, instead of making a minor change, such as requiring line of sight to the targets that you can rez, they made an entire rework that does NOT require you to engage but can in fact have you soaring in the skybox, far from danger, with a beam that is really long and that will heal all the tiny heroes on the ground.

Valkyrie is not engaging... at least with instant rez you would occasionally swoop down to rez someone, now there is no such incentive. Now you are more disengaged than ever... you just stay up there and heal/buff, that's it. No thought, no skill, just spacebar and left mouse button...
02/16/2018 09:32 AMPosted by Ravna
I really didn’t find using mass rez very difficult but it was definitely harder to use than the instant rezzes.

I am not going to claim that mass rez was difficult or engaging. While there were choices to be made (do you tempo rez someone who has ult or who is crucial to the push or do you wait to rez several people) I am not going to claim it was super engaging. That said, it was an instant thing so most of your playstyle was about your mobility outside of your ultimate. Valkyrie is such a significant part of your playtime so having it be boring and unengaging is really bad for the enjoyment. Add to that the statue-mode you get from rezzing and you have a horrible hero to play (not from a power level standpoint, but from an engagement and enjoyment standpoint)
When ultimates are used, all you can do as Mercy is fly away. Like, really far away, behind corner if there is dead eye active.

Why? Because your efforts don't matter. With or without Valkyrie, teammates still will die. It's weaker than even Moira's ult: 140 hp/s on everyone in the beam.
Flying isn't even a good idea a lot of the time. There are so many ults that can pick you out of the sky as a BONUS. Flying means you're vulnerable to D.Va's ult with no cover. Soldier 76 can pop you down and THEN start taking start taking out other people. McCree can high noon your butt and take other people down with you.
They didn't rework her to be more enganging and fun. That was the original rework. This latest rework was a straight-up nerf, to both her effectiveness as a support hero and how fun the character is to play.

You're working under the assumption that the latest rework wasn't a success because you don't understand what the objective was. The objective was to make her worse, so that the other supports could compete. They succeeded at that.

If you're arguing that they should have simply buffed the other supports rather than drag Mercy back down to the garbage pile with the rest of them, then you're right. But in terms of success, the latest rework did exactly what Blizzard wanted it to do.
02/16/2018 09:32 AMPosted by Ravna
02/16/2018 09:25 AMPosted by WildElements
...Once again, I would love to know what you people were doing with mass rez.


I really didn’t find using mass rez very difficult but it was definitely harder to use than the instant rezzes.
I really don’t see the thinking and skill required to pull of rezzes with E. No way even comparable to mass rez, which was a mind game.
02/16/2018 09:43 AMPosted by Elfcrippler
[b]They didn't rework her to be more enganging and fun. That was the original rework. This latest rework was a straight-up nerf, to both her effectiveness as a support hero and how fun the character is to play.

There has only been one rework... that was the original one, and the only one... The latest nerf was not a rework, but a nerf...
Unkillable? Hitscans can still wreck her. She's far less tanky than a pharmercy pharah. I mean her regen is good but not unbreakable. Pretty easy to pop. I agree it's definitely pretty boring though, sadly. OP or no her old ult had more skill involved with timing. After all the question of when to break away and when to pop it wasn't a clear cut decision. Very rarely did your entire team die at once without you also being dead to a flank or getting pulled into the fray somehow.

Edit: I don't understand the hostility from Mercy mains over the nerfs. Mind you I don't like it, but she remains strong. Nerfing a strong her is expected and fair. It's not like we were scrabbling for viability like Mei or something. Complaining about her being less fun is imho justified. Valk was initially fun, but now it's just lol left click more. Her rework made her somewhat less engaging overall. She's still quite fun, and I enjoy playing her. But the fun with her was the challenge of having perfect timing and positioning. Her ult was part of that, and the rework has lessened the impact of timing quite a bit. Her valk lasts so long now you can pop it by accident and still get a lot of use out of it. I mean it's clear that the skill of surviving when being dived and flanked is still there. It's there for all healers. But to a large degree Mercy lost a lot of her identity. That feeling when yoy recognize a great mercy play over merely a good one. Luckily, Guardian Angel is what made her iconic when not ulting, and she still has that. But I really don't like Valk anymore. It's absolutely stronger than rez even still imho. But it's not nearly as engaging.
02/16/2018 09:22 AMPosted by Ravna
I actually like the new mercy. It’s a lot harder to rez anyone and it takes some skill and brain power to play her. You actually have to calculate where you’re going and whether or not you should rez. I’m not sure why people keep saying that mercy is never attacked when in Valk because I get shot at all the time and have to keep flying around or I die. It also depends on what you’re playing. If you’re in QP then yeah you’re not likely to get shot at and rezing is easier. In comp the other team goes out of their way to either kill me in Valk or take me out before I can use it. I die pretty often if I have no one to fly to or my team isn’t helping me out. That’s just my two cents.

Mercy's current resurrection ability takes little skill and only requires minor game awareness. Are you behind a wall? Are you behind a shield? Are there flankers nearby? Is the enemy reloading? There are not very many questions you ask yourself.

Mercy 1.0 required tracking team ultimate’s, enemy ultimate’s, knowing when pushes were about to happen, knowing when to tempo vs. team rez, ect. How you choose to use resurrection depended on who you were playing against, with and the current situation. You were not supposed to use rez when you simply saw a big number.
02/16/2018 09:27 AMPosted by Slyther0829
I don't get why Blizzard insist in calling her rework a success. It ABSOLUTELY WAS NOT! If it had been a success we wouldn't have seen the 5 or 6 consecutive nerfs ending with the final nail in the coffin for the enjoyable Mercy playstyle that we used to have.


Obligatory “just because there were multiple iterations does not make the rework as a whole a failure. It just means it wasn’t finished when they pushed it live.

This just means Blizz barely did any internal testing and they sucks !@# at balancing. What kind of responsible developer would push an incomplete hero into the live servers, let alone a hero who would powercreep every other Healer by design? What's worse is that we get to see what Valkyrie is like in a "balanced" state. It completely sucks in every way.
She needs to be reverted. Valk is weaker, but somehow more annoying Zen ult, and Rez on a cooldown is the definition of cancer.
02/16/2018 07:46 AMPosted by Dva
Valkyrie feels so similar in power level to Coalescence yet it charges much slower.


It's worse at least Moira can heal and damage at the same time. Valkyrie at least should apply the heals and damage boost instead of making you pick one.
02/16/2018 11:15 AMPosted by Serpenvio
02/16/2018 07:46 AMPosted by Dva
Valkyrie feels so similar in power level to Coalescence yet it charges much slower.


It's worse at least Moira can heal and damage at the same time. Valkyrie at least should apply the heals and damage boost instead of making you pick one.
Plus, Moira is actually the one doing the fighting. It’s fun because you can use your ult to finish people off yourself or take out Pharah, heal up your team, whatever you want, really. And it doesn’t last 15 seconds.

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