Moira shouldn't be able to dive Zenyatta solo

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02/18/2018 07:50 AMPosted by Luca
02/18/2018 07:44 AMPosted by Zwei
And FYI the highest Single-target HPS in the game is still Ana and her excellent bursts of healing. She still needs tweaking though.


Ana has 90 HPS on a single target

Moira can do 155 HPS with her orb AND heal 5 people with her beam.
You're forgetting Ana has her grenade which also adds in an extra 50% healing and a burst of 100. Also Moira rarely gets more than 2 people within range of her primary fire heal/ healing orb unless your team is huddling behind an Orisa barrier. Nice way to cherry pick as the usual forum user does.

02/18/2018 07:46 AMPosted by Luca
02/18/2018 07:44 AMPosted by Zwei
Why is your team letting Moira flank and do nothing about it?


I'm asking why she needs to have the edge in a duel with Zenyatta, not why she's allowed to flank.

If she flanks and takes a duel with Zenyatta, the support who is supposed to be the damage/support hybrid with low healing she shouldn't have the inherent advantage in that duel.
Zenyatta is a long range hero who is weak to heroes with gap closers that can get up close and personal with him. Of course Moira has an edge, even Mercy can kill him if she happens to have a target to fly to that's near Zen.
02/18/2018 07:55 AMPosted by Bergmaniac
02/18/2018 07:50 AMPosted by Luca
...

Ana has 90 HPS on a single target

Moira can do 155 HPS with her orb AND heal 5 people with her beam.
If you are including the orb's effect, you should include the bionade's effect for Ana.


So Ana has 135 HPS.

Still lower than Moira's
02/18/2018 07:13 AMPosted by SilverKnight
02/18/2018 07:09 AMPosted by Luca
...

3 Orbs*

Console has aim assist, you can't talk about aim when you've got the game practically playing itself on there.
1 headshot 1 body shot but you can’t aim so don’t play Zen.
Plus it’s much easier to aim on pc

He's right, if you can't aim don't play Zen.
Just play Moira, she doesn't need aim.
02/18/2018 07:37 AMPosted by Luca
If it's a team game then why should she be able to 1v1 any hero she wants besides tanks?


I disagree with the 1vs1 anyone she wants but over looking that the reason her 1vs1 ability donsn't mater is because this is a pure team game. Each fight should be 6v6 crashing into each other.

If there was a scouting report done on each hero in this game that laid out the pros and cons of having a given hero on your team Moira would get a +1 for dual fighting with in say 15m range and -1 on range healing, +3 for group healing, +2 for tank healing.
Zen would also get say a +1 on dual fighting with a note like "Depending on aim" and a +2 for long range fighting. Being he can 100% instant delete players with his volley. +3 for range healing, -1 for in close tank healing. I mean you get the point, it's a ton of different +/- issues.

That's why any focus on just one of them is foolish. Do you have a really good winston or genji diving down on their team? Might better off with a Zen over Moira to help keep the dive heroes alive. Do they have more range? Maybe a Zen's range works better but if you're in close, maybe Moira does more work.

1v1 is a paper match up where the results only tell a tiny part of the story. It's like judging cars based only off 0-60 times.
That said I still think Moira will get her fade time increased a bit to help land lock her down a bit, but that's just my personal option. I really don't understand the rabble rabble over her to be honest.
Yeah, rabble rabble.
02/18/2018 07:55 AMPosted by Zwei
Zenyatta is a long range hero who is weak to heroes with gap closers that can get up close and personal with him. Of course Moira has an edge, even Mercy can kill him if she happens to have a target to fly to that's near Zen.


Zenyatta doesn't struggle to close range 1v1 any other non-tank hero.

He's not strictly long range, he can take duels with every other squishy hero and come out ontop, Moira has all the advantages though.

-Ability to remove discord orb from herself

-Ability to regenerate just the right amount of heal to survive headshots without a discord on her.

-Most obnoxious hitbox to lead a projectile into due to the way her upper body goes from completely upright to leaning foward, coupled with the standard AD spam
This isn't an accurate measure of what a support should be able to do or not, nor is it unique to Moira as a Lucio is probably even harder for a Zenyata to kill than a Moira.
02/18/2018 08:03 AMPosted by Luca
02/18/2018 07:55 AMPosted by Zwei
Zenyatta is a long range hero who is weak to heroes with gap closers that can get up close and personal with him. Of course Moira has an edge, even Mercy can kill him if she happens to have a target to fly to that's near Zen.


Zenyatta doesn't struggle to close range 1v1 any other non-tank hero.
Flankers say hi.
02/18/2018 08:07 AMPosted by AtomicTom
Lucio is probably even harder for a Zenyata to kill than a Moira.


Lucio doesn't have his head change ZIP Codes everytime he alternates between pressing W and S.

Lucio can't remove discord orb from himself

The thing is, it's just as hard for Lucio to kill Zenyatta as it is for Zenyatta to kill Lucio, Zenyatta has the advantage DPS-wise but the better player comes out ontop most of the time, which is how it should be.

With Moira she tends to win just because she has the advantage from the start, there's no "If you're better you win, if she's better she wins" since Moira wins even if you're better.
02/18/2018 07:09 AMPosted by Luca
02/18/2018 07:09 AMPosted by SilverKnight
...What the !@#$ is wrong with console, just because you can’t hit 2 orbs on a character doesn’t mean that she needs to be changed


3 Orbs*

Console has aim assist, you can't talk about aim when you've got the game practically playing itself on there.
Isn't it widely accepted that PC is much better for aiming? On average accuracy is higher on PC than console.
02/18/2018 08:13 AMPosted by Esayem
02/18/2018 07:09 AMPosted by Luca
...

3 Orbs*

Console has aim assist, you can't talk about aim when you've got the game practically playing itself on there.
Isn't it widely accepted that PC is much better for aiming? On average accuracy is higher on PC than console.


PC is better, but console is easier.

The skill ceiling on PC is alot higher and the skill floor on console is alot lower.
02/18/2018 07:54 AMPosted by Luca
02/18/2018 07:47 AMPosted by Bergmaniac
Why are you dueling Moira one on one anyway? I have 70 hours on Zen yet the times I've faced Moira one on one have been very few in total. Stay with your team.


Staying with your team is suicide for Zenyatta at any rank above Platinum.

Really? Because that's what the pro Zens seem to do in the few pro matches I've watched...

So where are you supposed to position yourself in a higher ranked game if not with your team?
If the enemy is letting you take a 1v1 with a Zen, it isn’t a Moira problem, it’s a bad enemy team problem.
this thread has dissolved into bashing console players and failing to recognize what zen brings to the table vs Moira
02/18/2018 08:18 AMPosted by Bergmaniac
Really? Because that's what the pro Zens seem to do in the few pro matches I've watched...

So where are you supposed to position yourself in a higher ranked game if not with your team?


NYXL is pretty much the only team that manages to pull of the frontline Zenyatta.

In a pro scene it's alot different to ladder, the most notable aspect is that a pro team will always peel for their teammates when they're caught foward.

Compare the position ryujehong takes on stream in ladder to the one he takes in a pro game, he's always far back in a ladder game, which means if he doesn't get help from his team he dies.

You can argue that Zenyatta should get help from his team all you want, but if Zenyatta needs help from his team, why should Moira be able to dive him solo?
OP you only have two hours in game. I highly suggest you spend more time learning how to actually play the game and less time crying for nerfs to characters you died to because of your lack of skill.
02/18/2018 08:26 AMPosted by Blam320
OP you only have two hours in game. I highly suggest you spend more time learning how to actually play the game and less time crying for nerfs to characters you died to because of your lack of skill.


Alt account.

It's not my lack of skill, it's the fact Moira inherently has an advantage in the 1v1, despite her own skill.
02/18/2018 07:02 AMPosted by Luca

Why should the support that has the highest healing per second also be able to 1v1 the support who is built around being a 3rd DPS with low healing output?

If you’re being killed by Moira constantly by her beam, then maybe it’s because you’re in a bad position and you need to stay closer to you’re team. Or she’s the one out of position and is going to die in 3 seconds unless the rest of your teammates have no awareness whatsoever. The beam is useless against an entire team and the damage orb won’t do much either consisering that you have a second healer if one of the healers is zen, so if you’re getting absolutely destroyed by the enemy Moira, then you need to work on your in-game positioning.
02/18/2018 08:28 AMPosted by Milecredible
If you’re being killed by Moira constantly by her beam, then maybe it’s because you’re in a bad position and you need to stay closer to you’re team. Or she’s the one out of position and is going to die in 3 seconds unless the rest of your teammates have no awareness whatsoever. The beam is useless against an entire team and the damage orb won’t do much either consisering that you have a second healer if one of the healers is zen, so if you’re getting absolutely destroyed by the enemy Moira, then you need to work on your in-game positioning.


My issue is that in the event Moira does take a 1v1 with Zenyatta, on Anubis B for example, Zenyatta's most optimal spot is the bridge/lane, off the point. If Moira decides to jump him while his team is on point she shouldn't have an inherent advantage in that 1v1, her kit gives her the advantage in almost any 1v1 she wants to take, besides against a tank hero.
Eh, if Moira gets the jump on zen and throws her damage orb it's pretty much game over for the zen. This is on console though. (I'm a master and yes I know how to aim)

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