Ana SHOULD counter Moira, but can't

General Discussion
02/20/2018 01:04 AMPosted by Heavy
02/20/2018 12:59 AMPosted by Fladkat
I'm reading forum from work, I'm not going to spend 20 minutes reading the longest forum rant to ever exist.


Got plenty of time to write your responses though. You could be halfway through my dumb post by now.

02/20/2018 01:03 AMPosted by Weisritter
Is it really okay to call people weak for lacking overall time to read exceptionally-lengthy, multi-paragraph posts..? A tad conceited if y'ask me.

It'd be more appropriate to call them impatient? Lazy perhaps?


Me? Conceited? I'm too strong to be conceited. Trust me.


...But isn't that the exac - y'knowwhat? Nevermind, I like you...you're entertaining. Like a bored RP'er insomniac or something who can't sleep.

Memories...
Here is my $0.02.

1) Sleep dart is already pretty powerful, though it does require good aim. If you add in the damage cap, I think slept targets should 'wake up faster' - not only does sleep already last a long time, it also has that 1~ second 'you can't do anything yet' once it has ended. - By this, I think it should only lower the duration by the 'you can't do anything yet' phase.

2) I think healing should only pierce allies if they are at full hp. but maybe heal 75% or 50% of the normal amount. If it pierces allies under 100% it should be split either 75 / 25 to make the current 100%

3) I'm all for lowering the 'nade cooldown and separating the effects of them (kinda like Moira's orb), but they should be under the same button and share a cooldown. If she has access to both on separate cooldowns, she will probably be a bit too strong.

Overall, I think Ana is in a good spot at the moment, it's just, due to a lot of people playing barrier based characters, she's not doing as well as she could be. I think once the sombra buffs come, you may see more of Ana, as it looks like Sombra will be able to shut the barriers down a bit easier now.
And we don't know what the new hero is going to bring / do yet. Buffing her now, could make her OP if the new hero really does shake things up a lot.

(After having read everything you typed, a lot of your basis seemed to be Ana vs 6 - other than the sleep dart damage cap - but I'm sorry if I interpreted it wrong.)
Also, why SHOULD Ana counter Moira specifically? I don't think you said anything about that. Unless you said it near the end, as I started skimming near the end.
Very good post, well-written and lots of good points.

What sort of world are we living in where people can be bothered to spend 5 minutes reading a constructive post and provide some decent feedback?

Crickey, get over yourselves and grow up a bit - if you haven't got anything decent to say then don't read it and keep quiet. Don't discourage someone's creativity because they didn't state their point in a single, ill-thought out paragraph.

Anyway back on point...

I particularly like the minimum duration on the sleep dart - nothing more irritating to land a great sleep on an ult'ing Genji only to have a stray shot wake him up and then chop down the rest of your team.

The only thing I think I disagree on is the biotic grenade - I definitely see where you are going with it, however, the intuitive nature of it and part of the skill of throwing it just in the right position to get the split value of healing buff on your allies and healing denial on enemies feels spot on at the moment; I wouldn't like to see it become the split decision mechanic of Moire.

I would like to see the rifle damage at 75/shot (as was suggested by many of us prior to the 70/shot buff recently), however, I don't think it'd probably solve her issues at this stage.

What I would really like to see is some sort of slow wall-climb ability (about half speed of Genji / Hanzo) that is 'interrupted' (making her fall to the ground) when taking any damage.

The idea would not to therefore be able to perform the ability in the heat of battle (i.e. it wouldn't be an escape ability) but it would allow Ana to reposition herself to a point of the map where she has proper sightlines / elevation which allows her to properly hit and heal her team.
Uhhhh what is this your master thesis for your graduate degree?
ana does just fine against moira she just get absolutely wrecked by the tanks moira enables.

If ana did not have such a huge issue dealing with tanks she would be able to drop a nade into the deathball.

quad tank should be easily countered by ana. instead ana is so weak she cannot be considered a counter.
02/20/2018 01:08 AMPosted by Weisritter
...But isn't that the exac - y'knowwhat? Nevermind, I like you...you're entertaining. Like a bored RP'er insomniac or something who can't sleep.

Memories...


I'm just teasing, buddy. I like you too.

02/20/2018 01:19 AMPosted by Kayos
1) Sleep dart is already pretty powerful, though it does require good aim. If you add in the damage cap, I think slept targets should 'wake up faster' - not only does sleep already last a long time, it also has that 1~ second 'you can't do anything yet' once it has ended. - By this, I think it should only lower the duration by the 'you can't do anything yet' phase.


I am fine with that. The power of sleep should be the sleep itself, not the in-and-out. I'm all for enemies waking up faster, so long as they're not being woken up because your team was doing what they're supposed to be doing, and the animation is consistent between being woken up versus waking up because the effect ended.

02/20/2018 01:19 AMPosted by Kayos
2) I think healing should only pierce allies if they are at full hp. but maybe heal 75% or 50% of the normal amount. If it pierces allies under 100% it should be split either 75 / 25 to make the current 100%


The problem there that I see is that sometimes Ana wants to heal a full-health target so that the healing over time will still be applied, thus allowing Ana to "pre-heal" targets just before they take damage. It helps mitigate her other problem, which is that she can't top off allies without essentially wasting potential healing. This is in contrast to all other healers, whose healing can be stopped and divided at will, and don't have to commit all that healing in one bullet even if they're just down 30 health.

But anything to solve the "I can't hit my target because all these factors work against me" issue, I'll take it at this point. It's far too upsetting to see a distant ally die because someone keeps getting in your way. In many of these situations, even just a little bit of healing could have been enough to save a life and win a fight.

02/20/2018 01:19 AMPosted by Kayos
3) I'm all for lowering the 'nade cooldown and separating the effects of them (kinda like Moira's orb), but they should be under the same button and share a cooldown. If she has access to both on separate cooldowns, she will probably be a bit too strong.


In my proposal, E is still the grenade button. Pressing it readies the grenade, much like Moira preparing her orbs, and left and right click are devoted to launching which specific grenade you want. I do see the potential of two separate grenades on separate cooldowns being too OP, and hence why I imagine if this system is used, the grenades would function much like they do now, or in possibly weaker spots. There could also be a one second window where Ana can't throw a grenade immediately after another. Overall, I think this separated system is fine, so long as it has the right numbers in the right places to keep it balanced.

And yeah, it seems Blizzard has taken a route for Sombra to be the better counter to the tank meta. I wrote this post long before Sombra buffs were a thing, but I still think this is a good window for Ana to be buffed in fun places.

02/20/2018 01:21 AMPosted by Kayos
Also, why SHOULD Ana counter Moira specifically? I don't think you said anything about that. Unless you said it near the end, as I started skimming near the end.


I say "should" from a mechanical, on-paper perspective, and in direct relation to Moira's meatball potential. I don't necessarily think Ana HAS to be the counter for Moira, but all of her tools suggest that she should be able to stop a tank-heavy composition reliant on her. Anti-heal SHOULD prevent mass healing on tanks, Sleep Dart SHOULD knock out one of those big hefty tanks, her damage SHOULD be reliable against that fat team, her healing and positioning SHOULD prevent tanks from over damaging her team and jumping on her. Yet, she doesn't, for the reasons listed.

So it isn't an issue of she MUST counter Moira, it's not really that grim, but that her abilities are already in the right place to do so.

02/20/2018 01:26 AMPosted by TerminatorUK
Very good post, well-written and lots of good points.


This second page is overwhelming with strength.

02/20/2018 01:26 AMPosted by TerminatorUK
The only thing I think I disagree on is the biotic grenade - I definitely see where you are going with it, however, the intuitive nature of it and part of the skill of throwing it just in the right position to get the split value of healing buff on your allies and healing denial on enemies feels spot on at the moment; I wouldn't like to see it become the split decision mechanic of Moire.


Admittedly I also like this aspect of Biotic Grenade. I do like that she can do so much in an instant, but it really is just too much power locked away in a single ability that can easily misfire in context. Unfortunately, all of what it can do has to be weakened for it to do so much at once, and I'm personally willing to sacrifice that in favor of more adaptable grenades that allow skilled Anas to do more, and weaker Anas to be forgiven for not being Ryujehong.

02/20/2018 01:30 AMPosted by Mshadowsx
Uhhhh what is this your master thesis for your graduate degree?


It's a test to weed out the weak. Looks like it's working.
Longest post on the forums.
02/20/2018 02:20 AMPosted by Monster
Longest post on the forums.


Weakest comment on this thread.
well. bait the fade and sleep her. it's not that hard.
02/20/2018 02:34 AMPosted by yee
well. bait the fade and sleep her. it's not that hard.


Yeah, you're right. It's as easy as that.
Moira doesn’t need a self heal. She has orbs. Ana doesn’t get one so why should Moira?
02/20/2018 02:35 AMPosted by Edsoulman
Moira doesn’t need a self heal. She has orbs. Ana doesn’t get one so why should Moira?


moira passively heals while doing dmg with her right click. don't know why she gets something like this period with orbs
02/20/2018 02:35 AMPosted by Edsoulman
Moira doesn’t need a self heal. She has orbs. Ana doesn’t get one so why should Moira?


Moira's orbs are a self-heal for her, so I imagine you mean her life siphon from her alternate fire.

And to that I say, she does need that. Moira lacks utility in favor of self-sustain and duel potential. Her damage is too weak otherwise be enough on its own, and it's easy to focus fire her down to bypass it, or at least force a retreat with the right burst damage. I don't have a problem with Moira lifestealing.

And Ana does have a self-heal, with her grenade, but since we're ignoring abilities here, the other advantage Ana has is distance. She can provide intense support from afar, which means you either have to flank her, out-snipe her, or at best, deal scratch damage. The former two lead to situations where she'll die long before any self-heal can help her under normal circumstances, and the latter is negligible. Ana lacking a self-heal outside her grenade is one of those fun weaknesses I mentioned within my post, but I did suggest a proposal to help mitigate the weakness via more grenade up-time. More reliable self-healing WOULD improve her, so I'm not immediately kicking that out the door, but it has to be in a place that will work right with her current kit.
The thing is...
Ana
Is
A
Sniper.

That alone means most tanks will negate her a large amount.

She is also support focused..which means her dmg is not great and healing is aim controlled.

This is the issue of her design.

Good in concept, but not in practice.

A sniper who can do well means she has no risk and isn't balanced.

A sniper who is too weak cause meta is heavily focused on tanks and walls that block her shots is not salvageable

If she's weak in tank meta then moment it changes ahe would be too strong.

Heroes like widow and hanzo work because they are focused around sniping.

Ana Is a support though so she is shafted by design.

Sad but true :(
02/20/2018 01:26 AMPosted by TerminatorUK
Very good post, well-written and lots of good points.

What sort of world are we living in where people can be bothered to spend 5 minutes reading a constructive post and provide some decent feedback?

Crickey, get over yourselves and grow up a bit - if you haven't got anything decent to say then don't read it and keep quiet. Don't discourage someone's creativity because they didn't state their point ill-thought out paragraph.

It's good feedback. Remove the fluff and get to the meat of the discussion. It takes less time to read and write while also being easier to digest and discuss. It's a criticism outside the main point of the thread, but it's worthwhile to point out.
OP you seem to have too much time on your hands. And what is your obsession with calling people 'weak'? Just because I have better things to do than read a novel about "mimimi Ana needs a buff", I am weak?

You know intelligence is expressing a lot with very few words. By that definition, well... bad news for you.
Why should she? Who said she should?
02/20/2018 02:45 AMPosted by Seph
OP you seem to have too much time on your hands. And what is your obsession with calling people 'weak'? Just because I have better things to do than read a novel about "mimimi Ana needs a buff", I am weak?

You know intelligence is expressing a lot with very few words. By that definition, well... bad news for you.

*me reading an academic journal*
look how long this is, what are these guys, !@#$ing stupid?
02/20/2018 02:45 AMPosted by Seph
OP you seem to have too much time on your hands. And what is your obsession with calling people 'weak'? Just because I have better things to do than read a novel about "mimimi Ana needs a buff", I am weak?

You know intelligence is expressing a lot with very few words. By that definition, well... bad news for you.


I'm a writer, so I write a lot. I also work a quiet overnight job, and this post took me maybe an hour max to write, and two weeks to sit on it and edit. If you've got better things to do than read my post, then I gotta wonder what productivity value is to be had by commenting about it.

And I've got some news for you, too. I'll take your advice and limit myself to four words: you are also weak.

02/20/2018 02:45 AMPosted by Haust
It's good feedback. Remove the fluff and get to the meat of the discussion. It takes less time to read and write while also being easier to digest and discuss. It's a criticism outside the main point of the thread, but it's worthwhile to point out.


It is good feedback, and all jokes aside, I do appreciate it. Unfortunately, I also feel it's a lot of good information to be gleamed, so I don't see myself shortening my post in the new-age forums. On the bright side, I will be finding key notes to highlight for easier skimming, though that's not going to stop the weak from trickling in with their strength-lacking comments, will it?

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