Pharah Problems

General Discussion
Why is it that her attack rate, reload rate, projectile speed, airstrafe speed(with jets), and cooldown speed are some of if not the slowest in game across the board?

The only thing she seems to excel at doing is borderline point-blank barrages, and doing 40+ explosive damage to herself if you're even remotely close to the target you're shooting at, often frustratingly/paradoxingly doing more damage to yourself than them.

This is on top of her seemingly wearing a full suit of armor, yet having zero in game armor and the exact same health as every other dps in the game barring tracer, reaper, and bastion for a variety of reasons, in addition to having a frustratingly predictable/oddly moving shiftjump that isn't a 1-frame move and seemingly extremely subjective to server/client delay problems, as more often than not in killscreens you'll see the opponent not even registering you've moved.

Why are there so many issues baked into the same character at the cost of direct rocket damage/ultimate speed gain?

On the bright side, knocking people off does give a very large chunk of ult gain, due to the health=charge mechanic from environmental kills... But does this really make up for the fact that her hitbox is also the size of a house, as a wingtip-hit of her jets does full damage of a body shot...?

This is ignoring specific hero interactions like the fact that genji can seemingly deflect rockets that have already hit the ground on your screen if he's remotely close to it while deflecting.

I'm not sure if anyone else feels this way but the time invested learning the speed of projectile in order to hit flick shots and the like feels far less rewarding than if you'd spent your time attempting to master any hitscan hero, genji, or someone like widow.
Should we expect to see any changes to her in the future? Or is she just forever supposed to be the Worf of overwatch, something that every other hero needs to be able to beat to prove they're strong enough to be a threat?
Not all of these changes obviously need to be implemented, but I would imagine a fair number of people would love to see even one of them, something.
Because if she was any faster, she'd be extremely overpowered.

Her being slow, is the only thing holding her back from being broken.
02/20/2018 04:50 AMPosted by Fladkat
Because if she was any faster, she'd be extremely overpowered.

Her being slow, is the only thing holding her back from being broken.

I find it a little dubious that she'd be "broken" considering that on mccree, you could potentially fire 3 shots at pharah before the second rocket is even launched, let alone 4 if not 5 shots from 76. If any one of those are a headshot, you're done on the second hit, and even if they aren't, you're still dead to either of those situations assuming they hit at least 65% of their shots.
02/20/2018 04:56 AMPosted by Zhanrock
02/20/2018 04:50 AMPosted by Fladkat
Because if she was any faster, she'd be extremely overpowered.

Her being slow, is the only thing holding her back from being broken.

I find it a little dubious that she'd be "broken" considering that on mccree, you could potentially fire 3 shots at pharah before the second rocket is even launched, let alone 4 if not 5 shots from 76. If any one of those are a headshot, you're done on the second hit, and even if they aren't, you're still dead to either of those situations assuming they hit at least 65% of their shots.

You're forgetting the most important factor.

Pharah is not bound to the ground.

Not even going to get into damage falloff.
02/20/2018 04:58 AMPosted by Fladkat
02/20/2018 04:56 AMPosted by Zhanrock
...
I find it a little dubious that she'd be "broken" considering that on mccree, you could potentially fire 3 shots at pharah before the second rocket is even launched, let alone 4 if not 5 shots from 76. If any one of those are a headshot, you're done on the second hit, and even if they aren't, you're still dead to either of those situations assuming they hit at least 65% of their shots.

You're forgetting the most important factor.

Pharah is not bound to the ground.

Not even going to get into damage falloff.

Except at any range where damage falloff matters at all you're literally just spamming at long range and you can see the projectiles coming from a mile away, which are rather plodding. if you correctly guess the first direction she's aiming at for the coverage spread you've now got the jump on her for movement speed, and she more than likely will not hit a second rocket before either getting a heal, and more than certianly not a direct if not from sheer luck/bad strafing.

Medium range mcree still does 70, maybe that argument matters a little for 76 but the healing zone just allows him to tank the non-direct hits of the rockets assuming a 1v1 situation where you're attempting to flank and not just being pocketed by a mercy, he'll easily just wear you down in air.
02/20/2018 05:04 AMPosted by Zhanrock
02/20/2018 04:58 AMPosted by Fladkat
...
You're forgetting the most important factor.

Pharah is not bound to the ground.

Not even going to get into damage falloff.

Except at any range where damage falloff matters at all you're literally just spamming at long range and you can see the projectiles coming from a mile away, which are rather plodding. if you correctly guess the first direction she's aiming at for the coverage spread you've now got the jump on her for movement speed, and she more than likely will not hit a second rocket before either getting a heal, and more than certianly not a direct if not from sheer luck/bad strafing.

Medium range mcree still does 70, maybe that argument matters a little for 76 but the healing zone just allows him to tank the non-direct hits of the rockets assuming a 1v1 situation where you're attempting to flank and not just being pocketed by a mercy, he'll easily just wear you down in air.

I don't understand why you're bringing McCree into this. He's supposedly a counter to Pharah (supposedly -- his range is ridiculously short).

It'd be like compare Junkrat to Pharah given they both do 120 damage on direct hits. Apples and oranges.

You keep mentioning non direct hits. Then learn to bloody hit your rockets instead.
Even if what you said was true, then nerf her damage in order to give some projectile speed/fire rate so that you can effectively balance around a higher skill for aiming, and not just what happens when lower level ones get a lucky direct and do nearly 65% of your health.
02/20/2018 05:09 AMPosted by Zhanrock
Even if what you said was true, then nerf her damage in order to give some projectile speed/fire rate so that you can effectively balance around a higher skill for aiming, and not just what happens when lower level ones get a lucky direct and do nearly 65% of your health.
I'd contest that leading slow projectiles requires more skill than hitscan in a lot of cases, in particular when you're facing a lot of fast mobile heroes. Asking for faster projectiles would make her easier.

Honestly, I think Pharah is in a great spot in respect to balance.
How about we not start asking for Pharah buffs when she 100% does not need it. One character combo and she becomes the worst thing to deal with.
02/20/2018 05:07 AMPosted by Fladkat
02/20/2018 05:04 AMPosted by Zhanrock
...
Except at any range where damage falloff matters at all you're literally just spamming at long range and you can see the projectiles coming from a mile away, which are rather plodding. if you correctly guess the first direction she's aiming at for the coverage spread you've now got the jump on her for movement speed, and she more than likely will not hit a second rocket before either getting a heal, and more than certianly not a direct if not from sheer luck/bad strafing.

Medium range mcree still does 70, maybe that argument matters a little for 76 but the healing zone just allows him to tank the non-direct hits of the rockets assuming a 1v1 situation where you're attempting to flank and not just being pocketed by a mercy, he'll easily just wear you down in air.

I don't understand why you're bringing McCree into this. He's supposedly a counter to Pharah (supposedly -- his range is ridiculously short).

It'd be like compare Junkrat to Pharah given they both do 120 damage on direct hits. Apples and oranges.

You keep mentioning non direct hits. Then learn to bloody hit your rockets instead.


But junkrat's directs can also do 120 if it clips anywhere near the primary target, and have 0 aoe reduction based on range(m1 anyway, mine was obviously just nerfed), and last on the ground for people to trod on limiting area you have to dodge. Hitting rockets at mid range is fine-- if you could land a second one before dying. You can potentially hit 1 or 2 correction shots at extreme ranges where the damage falloff matters, but you're absolutely lying to yourself if you think you can guarantee hitting perfect rockets every time at that range, a la Volskaya lamppost to point B ranges. If they're standing still, obviously, but what, do your targets never move?
02/20/2018 05:13 AMPosted by Jessicka
02/20/2018 05:09 AMPosted by Zhanrock
Even if what you said was true, then nerf her damage in order to give some projectile speed/fire rate so that you can effectively balance around a higher skill for aiming, and not just what happens when lower level ones get a lucky direct and do nearly 65% of your health.
I'd contest that leading slow projectiles requires more skill than hitscan in a lot of cases, in particular when you're facing a lot of fast mobile heroes.

That's the point, no? It requires more skill for less upside than if you just went to go play a hitscan hero. Assuming you had the same level of aiming skill, you'd more than likely have better results on any hitscan 100% of the time, 1v1.
02/20/2018 05:13 AMPosted by Zhanrock
02/20/2018 05:07 AMPosted by Fladkat
...
I don't understand why you're bringing McCree into this. He's supposedly a counter to Pharah (supposedly -- his range is ridiculously short).

It'd be like compare Junkrat to Pharah given they both do 120 damage on direct hits. Apples and oranges.

You keep mentioning non direct hits. Then learn to bloody hit your rockets instead.


But junkrat's directs can also do 120 if it clips anywhere near the primary target, and have 0 aoe reduction based on range(m1 anyway, mine was obviously just nerfed), and last on the ground for people to trod on limiting area you have to dodge. Hitting rockets at mid range is fine-- if you could land a second one before dying. You can potentially hit 1 or 2 correction shots at extreme ranges where the damage falloff matters, but you're absolutely lying to yourself if you think you can guarantee hitting perfect rockets every time at that range, a la Volskaya lamppost to point B ranges. If they're standing still, obviously, but what, do your targets never move?

Of course targets move. That's why you lead your shots.

Rock - Paper - Scissor.

You counter a fair deal of the hero roster, and some counter you.
02/20/2018 05:15 AMPosted by Fladkat
Of course targets move. That's why you lead your shots.

Rock - Paper - Scissor.

You counter a fair deal of the hero roster, and some counter you.

Bruh.
If you think you can leadshot reliably at long range distances the people you're shooting are straight up trash.

You counter only things slower than her in midair, like zeny, Doomfist as he can't reliably hit combo you in the air, and things that can't effectively fight back ( and probably shouldn't try anyway, as their teammates do it better) like lucio or mercy. Bastion or torb can literally just redeploy their setup 90% of the time, and torb has bigger problems than just taking rockets to his setup location.
02/20/2018 05:14 AMPosted by Zhanrock
<span class="truncated">...</span>I'd contest that leading slow projectiles requires more skill than hitscan in a lot of cases, in particular when you're facing a lot of fast mobile heroes.

That's the point, no? It requires more skill for less upside than if you just went to go play a hitscan hero. Assuming you had the same level of aiming skill, you'd more than likely have better results on any hitscan 100% of the time, 1v1.
I think she's fine where she is, leading your shots against Tracer or Genji or Moira is not easy, and it's not about 'luck'. If you're playing into counters, you also have to think about approach play get closer in to deal with them. I really don't see a problem with her, particularly since uncountered she can easily carry a match.
You forgot that Pharah has the greatest advantage over most heroes in the game, Aerial superiority. If given armor, something would have to be compensated in return.
02/20/2018 05:21 AMPosted by Zhanrock
02/20/2018 05:15 AMPosted by Fladkat
Of course targets move. That's why you lead your shots.

Rock - Paper - Scissor.

You counter a fair deal of the hero roster, and some counter you.

Bruh.
If you think you can leadshot reliably at long range distances the people you're shooting are straight up trash.

You counter only things slower than her in midair, like zeny, Doomfist as he can't reliably hit combo you in the air, and things that can't effectively fight back ( and probably shouldn't try anyway, as their teammates do it better) like lucio or mercy. Bastion or torb can literally just redeploy their setup 90% of the time, and torb has bigger problems than just taking rockets to his setup location.

So what I'm getting here, is you want to be able to shoot rockets at people, far away from their reach.

Of course it should be hard to hit rockets are long ranges. You have no damage fall off whatsoever.

The only actual counter you have at that range, is a Widowmaker.
02/20/2018 05:13 AMPosted by SirDerpz
How about we not start asking for Pharah buffs when she 100% does not need it. One character combo and she becomes the worst thing to deal with.
Always shoot the one in the dress first.

...
That's the point, no? It requires more skill for less upside than if you just went to go play a hitscan hero. Assuming you had the same level of aiming skill, you'd more than likely have better results on any hitscan 100% of the time, 1v1.
I think she's fine where she is, leading your shots against Tracer or Genji or Moira is not easy, and it's not about 'luck'. If you're playing into counters, you also have to think about approach play get closer in to deal with them. I really don't see a problem with her, particularly since uncountered she can easily carry a match.


If you're playing on the enemy team and not a single person on the enemy squad can effectively play D.va, Widow, 76, Mcree, Genji, a moderately decent bastion/any kind of support for him with diamond or better level aim, or reduce her effectiveness/radically empower themselves with zarya due to the predictable nature of the shots, then your team is seriously lacking in diversity.
02/20/2018 05:23 AMPosted by HarmonicJoy
You forgot that Pharah has the greatest advantage over most heroes in the game, Aerial superiority. If given armor, something would have to be compensated in return.
So take away some damage, her entire health bar doesn't need to be armor either, even just a moderate amount to close distance in an effort to mitigate the slow speed of the projectiles without dying before getting to close range.

and again, this is assuming we get any one of these changes, nor does it have to be that specific one.

Secondly, this is honestly her largest weakness with the state of hitscan damage, if they have equal or better aim than you do, You are at a huge disadvantage being nowhere near a wall unless literally screaming through the air with a repulsor boost using no jumpjets to fall.
02/20/2018 05:21 AMPosted by Zhanrock

You counter only things slower than her in midair, like zeny, Doomfist as he can't reliably hit combo you in the air, and things that can't effectively fight back ( and probably shouldn't try anyway, as their teammates do it better) like lucio or mercy. Bastion or torb can literally just redeploy their setup 90% of the time, and torb has bigger problems than just taking rockets to his setup location.


So you are complaining about the game having 4 characters that counter you?
The horror Hanzo mains should feel!

I've got an idea. If you see a bastion, don't fly arround like he wasn't there :)
These characters are meant to limit your air-space.
If the enemy sees you as pharah and doesn't try to do it, then it's their doomfall.
If you have limited air-space but insistently fly arround like if you were free, then it's your own fault.

PD: Try hard landing every now an then, propelling youself towards soldiers.
At short distance and in ground, these characters will have a harder time pinning you down (doesn't work with mcree tho, don't get in his zone)
02/20/2018 05:13 AMPosted by SirDerpz
How about we not start asking for Pharah buffs when she 100% does not need it. One character combo and she becomes the worst thing to deal with.
Always shoot the one in the dress first.

...I think she's fine where she is, leading your shots against Tracer or Genji or Moira is not easy, and it's not about 'luck'. If you're playing into counters, you also have to think about approach play get closer in to deal with them. I really don't see a problem with her, particularly since uncountered she can easily carry a match.


If you're playing on the enemy team and not a single person on the enemy squad can effectively play D.va, Widow, 76, Mcree, Genji, a moderately decent bastion/any kind of support for him with diamond or better level aim, or reduce her effectiveness/radically empower themselves with zarya due to the predictable nature of the shots, then your team is seriously lacking in diversity.
Mercy has the slimmest hitbox in the game and by the time you can do anything pharah's already loaded two 150 damage rockets into your face.

PROS use this combo, and they do not suffer from "not shooting the mercy." It's more than that.

I'm not saying it should be nerfed, but saying "just shoot mercy" is literally the same as "just click their heads 4HEAD"

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