Why do people get so mad at Widow?

Competitive Discussion
did you read my post(s)?


i read them and the part that is being confused here is this

02/20/2018 08:06 AMPosted by omnic
A widowmaker that isn't doing well will have 0 presence. Furthermore even a great widowmaker can have her presence completely shut down on most maps.


its being confused that you are not saying widowmakers have 0 presence. instead a widow not "doing well". or when the map doesnt suit the pick.

example lijiang tower. this was a good example its one of the maps in the game i NEVER pick widow. I just dont ever feel fully effective widow and i would rather play something that feels better.
02/20/2018 09:20 AMPosted by Harmless
Yes, I did read your posts. And my post was saying I wasn’t making the case that Widow had the same level of presence in every scenario. Horizon A is just the clearest example of where she can easily manipulate what your tanks are doing, so I went with it.


Sure but that doesn't really argue against my point. Which was besides specific maps and points (hlc first point/ruins/first point kings row/dorado first point flanking) she just doesn't contribute much presence. She has massive presence on those points but that's only 4 points out of how many points of interest on how many maps? It's just an exception to the rule and while they exist (and we both acknowledge that they exist) they aren't as important as the vast majority of play areas which takes place not on those points/maps. And in those areas her presence is incredibly limited in ways that most other characters aren't and basically demand that she outclasses the enemy team in a way that another dps character doesn't to get the same results (because it's harder for a widowmaker to get a pick on most maps than it is for a Junkrat to spam nades to break a reinhardt barrier.).

It's not a question of if Widowmaker can have presence it's how often she'll have presence and the majority of the time she has far less presence than any other dps character.
02/20/2018 09:22 AMPosted by Mizzerella
did you read my post(s)?


i read them and the part that is being confused here is this

02/20/2018 08:06 AMPosted by omnic
A widowmaker that isn't doing well will have 0 presence. Furthermore even a great widowmaker can have her presence completely shut down on most maps.


its being confused that you are not saying widowmakers have 0 presence. instead a widow not "doing well". or when the map doesnt suit the pick.

example lijiang tower. this was a good example its one of the maps in the game i NEVER pick widow. I just dont ever feel fully effective widow and i would rather play something that feels better.


Your logic is flawed. Map, Side, Team Selection, Enemy Selection are things that COULD impact selection. However, how each team/player is PLAYING is a far larger impact to that specific game.

When you accuse a player of "not doing well" you give nothing that the TEAM, or widow, can benefit from. Maybe the widow is not doing well because the tanks are just sitting at the choke and no space is being created to allow the widow to get kills. This is a real problem I see often, and if the tanks fix their issue by initiating to a reasonable distance that allows the TEAM to take advantage of the space then the widow might actually be able to do great. However, what usually happens is that the widow is blamed and maybe they switch, but the actual issue with the tanks is never addressed. So you might have something instead of a widow, but the TEAM still isn't able to successfully move past the choke or initiate or do anything really.

In contrast maybe it is the widow. Maybe the widow is shooting at the tanks instead of bigger threats with lower hp, and you could call that out and say "widow please help us focus down (insert the hero/player that is actually the problem)". Let's say the widow keeps diving around and getting picked off while she tries to get kills, and you might tell her that she needs to die less. Maybe even suggest that if she is getting picked off herself when she tries to do pre-initiattion kills, instead she should wait till after the initiation. Then if after they do that if they are still not securing kills suggest that they do something that can do more consistent damage with, or change how they play widow. I would rather have a widow running aorund machine gunning everything next to a tank then a widow zoned out missing 3x the shots.

Ultimate, as a community we need to fight back against lazy statements like "not doing well" and "we need X hero". Both statements assume the other player is thinking like you are, and both statements lack any actual information that could lead to a solution.
I’m not on a war to win against you here. I’d say there are very few spots where Widow is just terrible, but there are some. By the same token, there are a few where she is brilliant, sometimes even if played poorly. How that mix plays out, I dunno. Not worth arguing for me. One reason I enjoy Zen is he fits into any comp, on any map, that doesn’t already have two other supports :)

In Gold/Plat (where people love to complain about Widow before you even leave spawn), these things hardly matter. And honestly, I have better things to worry about than whether our Widow is effective or not. There are enough ineffective S76s running around that someone being useless in Widow doesn’t frustrate me.

But anyway, the thing I was most addressing was how presence plays a factor with Widow. It is her strongest asset when can utilize it, and we agree that is a map/comp dependent thing.
02/20/2018 09:22 AMPosted by Mizzerella
its being confused that you are not saying widowmakers have 0 presence. instead a widow not "doing well". or when the map doesnt suit the pick.


It's 2 distinct problems.

The first: A widowmaker on the majority of the maps have very limited viable options and don't limit or impede the enemy options significantly more than anybody else. First point Eichenwaldt is a good example. A wm on it doesn't force tanks to change their positioning. Nor does she have much opportunity to do much besides stare at barriers. This is because until the team on offense takes the choke her two options are: shoot from the same spot everybody in the fight is shooting which is being blocked by a barrier or go on top of the bridge which makes her a sitting duck and doesn't offer a significantly LOS advantage. Her one saving grace of presence is if her team takes the choke and forces the defending team onto the point then wm can take the high ground. At this point she becomes really annoying to deal with. However if the defending team has anybody with vertical mobility (which is very likely because of how much the second point uses it) then she gets completely screwed over because she has no good escape route. She can grappling hook back into the tunnel but that's not even that great of an option.

This means she's not doing much. While having a genji can flank and force enemies to give up the choke to force him off of the point or can harass the back line so people peel him off of their healers or just stop focusing on the frontline as much. A junkrat can almost single handedly win the barrier war for his team and force the enemy team to back up (unless the enemy team has multiple barrier busters or their own junkrat). The widowmaker has an opportunity cost here and she requires her team to enable her to give her presence in a way that other characters just don't.

the second problem is If she's doing well or not: Widowmaker is a "thrive or starve" type of character where depending on if she's landing her shots she's either doing work or she's largely a non-factor. She doesn't bring utility to her team beyond killing. And if she's doing poorly then she's not going to do much killing. Compared to soldier 76. If a soldier 76 isn't doing that well he's still putting down damage on the enemy barrier. He's still dropping bionic fields that keep his healers alive when Winston dives them. He's still spamming down a narrow corridor forcing his enemies to focus on it because even if he's probably not going to out right kill them if his team is spamming down the area their combined damage is either killing enemies or forcing them to use cooldowns to not die.

The best way to demonstrate how a widowmaker that's doing poorly has no presence:

If an enemy widowmaker is doing poorly a McCree will !@#$le peak a corner to bait out the shot and then straight up take a fight. He's not worried that she's going to use grappling hook above his team and drop a mine into the cluster to soften up the entire team. The one factor that matters in the end with widowmaker is if she can land those shots.

If an enemy junkrat isn't doing good he's still going to destroy the enemy reinhardts barrier. He's still going to be booping people around randomly with his grenades and mines throwing off their aim. He's still forcing enemy players to pay attention to his grenades/mines/traps so they don't run face first into them and instantly die. Junkrat doesn't have only one factor you need to worry about. If he's horrible at his spamming angles trap+ mines are still insanely scary. If he's terrible at using his ultimate he's still going to destroy the enemy barrier faster than anybody else in the game.
Luma I was playing with u and u were good

02/20/2018 05:10 AMPosted by Drunkenstylz
02/20/2018 04:50 AMPosted by Harmless
People always find someone/something to blame that isn’t them. Widow/Hanzo are go-to scapegoats.


Play mercy and people will insult you for being a mercy main but still complain about heals and damage boost.
Play Reinhard and they will insult you because orisa is so much superior
Play Ana and not Mercy or Moira you are throwing
Play Cree not 76 you are obv throwing

So like Harmless said people will always find a reason to blame you. I did pick Hanzo in a match, we won and i had gold elims and damage, did some nice 3k and a 4k that was play of the game and i got reported by 5 people while we were in the Spawnroom before the first KOTH map :)

The community of this game is just bad, toxic, unfirendly and all are masters stuck in gold because of everyone else...


Yeh I’m trying to mainly play supports, but there is always someone on the team who blames me for not doing something I couldn’t do. It’s ok you’ll get over it. I also appreciate a good widow. Symmetra in general just pisses me off.
02/20/2018 10:17 AMPosted by Goso
but there is always someone on the team who blames me for not doing something I couldn’t do.


Supports get that a lot. They rely on teammates more than anybody else (except arguably Zarya) to function correctly and people tend to expect them to pull things off that really aren't reasonable.
The main problem i have with Widow and Hanzo players on Comp is that even when they are getting repeatedly countered/killed, they dont swap out to a different hero that is more beneficial.

Hanzo and Widow are excellent additions to a team but unfortunately i find that 80% of people lack the skill required to play them efficiently. Myself included!
02/20/2018 09:45 AMPosted by IAmSupport
Your logic is flawed. Map, Side, Team Selection, Enemy Selection are things that COULD impact selection. However, how each team/player is PLAYING is a far larger impact to that specific game.


02/20/2018 10:06 AMPosted by omnic
It's 2 distinct problems.


im not arguing the point i fully agree. that is where Harmless is confusing what is said here. he is arguing widowmakers DO have presence. but thats not what was said.
Unless the person has practiced, having her on your team is basically a throw.
02/20/2018 10:33 AMPosted by Mizzerella
02/20/2018 09:45 AMPosted by IAmSupport
Your logic is flawed. Map, Side, Team Selection, Enemy Selection are things that COULD impact selection. However, how each team/player is PLAYING is a far larger impact to that specific game.


02/20/2018 10:06 AMPosted by omnic
It's 2 distinct problems.


im not arguing the point i fully agree. that is where Harmless is confusing what is said here. he is arguing widowmakers DO have presence. but thats not what was said.


I believe I have cleared up my confusion at this point- hopefully my latter posts indicate that.
People dont trust widows or anyone else that isnt preforming to swap in a timely fashion. Usually takes a widow losing one whole round to switch, or sometimes two rounds and by then its an uphill battle.

I had an amazing one on my team lastnight, was great until the second round they had two shield tanks and a winston, so he went tracer and owned them. Thats the difference, some widows would just keep trying to get a pick against 3 shields as defense on a payload map.
depends where your rank is, if you are gold/silver/plat, yeah people have the right to doubt a widow main, because she is a hard carry hero. If you are like me and be at my rank then less people will doubt you and actually let you play. I honestly don't hear that many "switch off widow" comments unless the team absolutely needs another type of dps, tank or healer. Look if you can land your shots, be able to pressure the team, and get picks that MATTER in a team fight, you will climb.

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