"You can't remove Scatter, it's in the Dragons short!"

General Discussion
I would rather die to an OP hanzo that takes skill to kill... compared to a scatter arrow that had every arrow scatter into one toe of my champ for a one hit kill....
02/16/2018 12:21 PMPosted by Elfcrippler
The only point that people are making is that it's iconic to the character and one of the most unique abilities in the game.

It may be worth looking into lowering the damage or reducing the scatter effect, rather than getting rid of it entirely.

Also considering how low Hanzo's global stats are, I don't think it's very fair to call Scatter Arrow a "crutch". He's a underpowered character even with it. And it's not a "crutch" to use an ability in your kit to get kills, this is an hero-based shooter. Abilities are supposed to be strong. Otherwise this would just be COD. No one says Soldier being able to heal and shoot rockets is using a crutch. They just go, "Oh, those are just elements of his kit, alongside his primary weapon. Perfectly fine."

People's bias against Hanzo is beginning to get ridiculous.


Funny, isn't that what people were saying about mercy, when the rework happened. That it was taking away her original identity and changing how an iconic ability worked?
02/16/2018 12:30 PMPosted by Fate
02/16/2018 12:21 PMPosted by Elfcrippler
...The only point that people are making is that it's iconic to the character and one of the most unique abilities in the game.

It may be worth looking into lowering the damage or reducing the scatter effect, rather than getting rid of it entirely.

Also considering how low Hanzo's global stats are, I don't think it's very fair to call Scatter Arrow a "crutch". He's a underpowered character even with it. And it's not a "crutch" to use an ability in your kit to get kills, this is an hero-based shooter. Abilities are supposed to be strong. Otherwise this would just be COD. No one says Soldier being able to heal and shoot rockets is using a crutch. They just go, "Oh, those are just elements of his kit, alongside his primary weapon. Perfectly fine."

People's bias against Hanzo is beginning to get ridiculous.


The only thing "iconic" to Hanzo is his ultimate in the short. Scatter arrow in the short acts nothing like scatter arrow in the game anyway. Your argument has no basis.
It's an arrow that scatters into fragments. It doesn't matter if it's a 1:1 representation. And that doesn't even mention his multiple voice lines, sprays, and achievements mentioning the ability. It's iconic to the character because whenever someone mentions Hanzo, they almost exclusively are talking about scatter; either negatively or positively.

My argument has a ton of basis, and your single sentence reply to my many arguments is indicative of that.
02/16/2018 12:32 PMPosted by KainKent
02/16/2018 12:21 PMPosted by Elfcrippler
The only point that people are making is that it's iconic to the character and one of the most unique abilities in the game.

It may be worth looking into lowering the damage or reducing the scatter effect, rather than getting rid of it entirely.

Also considering how low Hanzo's global stats are, I don't think it's very fair to call Scatter Arrow a "crutch". He's a underpowered character even with it. And it's not a "crutch" to use an ability in your kit to get kills, this is an hero-based shooter. Abilities are supposed to be strong. Otherwise this would just be COD. No one says Soldier being able to heal and shoot rockets is using a crutch. They just go, "Oh, those are just elements of his kit, alongside his primary weapon. Perfectly fine."

People's bias against Hanzo is beginning to get ridiculous.


Funny, isn't that what people were saying about mercy, when the rework happened. That it was taking away her original identity and changing how an iconic ability worked?
Mercy can still rez people. I'm saying that it might be worth looking at scatter in the same fashion.

If they completely removed rezzing from Mercy, it WOULD be taking away her original identity. Mercy's whole character arc is about her literally putting people back together and bringing them back from the brink of death. Yet Rez was considered too powerful for the community, so it was reworked and nerfed. It was not removed entirely.
It sounds more like we need to get those cinematic abilities in game.

You've heard of Mario Kart, now get ready for....

REINCART
From the information I gathered on the new rapid arrow thing replacing scatter, it's going to be better than scatter imo. Now I can hit people directly rather than missing due to a little bump in the floor and it'll be a better tool to deal with diving characters. On the other end of it, people can now run and hide behind walls or shields without having to worry about getting hit out of no where. I'm not worried about matching the cinematic.
02/16/2018 12:42 PMPosted by Elfcrippler

If they completely removed rezzing from Mercy, it WOULD be taking away her original identity. Mercy's whole character arc is about her literally putting people back together and bringing them back from the brink of death. Yet Rez was considered too powerful for the community, so it was reworked and nerfed. It was not removed entirely.


While I agree that the rework didn't change anything about her original identity. This was the same argument Mercy players made against the rework in the first place. Either way, I'm sure if scatter ends up being replaced or was just nerfed or reworked in some sort of manner, there'd be backlash just like there was with Mercy. I'm just saying, this is like the pot calling kettle black.
02/16/2018 12:50 PMPosted by KainKent
02/16/2018 12:42 PMPosted by Elfcrippler

If they completely removed rezzing from Mercy, it WOULD be taking away her original identity. Mercy's whole character arc is about her literally putting people back together and bringing them back from the brink of death. Yet Rez was considered too powerful for the community, so it was reworked and nerfed. It was not removed entirely.


While I agree that the rework didn't change anything about her original identity. This was the same argument Mercy players made against the rework in the first place. Either way, I'm sure if scatter ends up being replaced or was just nerfed or reworked in some sort of manner, there'd be backlash just like there was with Mercy. I'm just saying, this is like the pot calling kettle black.
You can't use the Mercy example, because at the end of the day Mercy could still bring people back from the dead. Removing scatter is in no way analogous. I'm fine with a rework.

It's the complete removal that I think is going a little too far.
02/16/2018 12:40 PMPosted by Elfcrippler
02/16/2018 12:30 PMPosted by Fate
...

The only thing "iconic" to Hanzo is his ultimate in the short. Scatter arrow in the short acts nothing like scatter arrow in the game anyway. Your argument has no basis.
It's an arrow that scatters into fragments. It doesn't matter if it's a 1:1 representation. And that doesn't even mention his multiple voice lines, sprays, and achievements mentioning the ability. It's iconic to the character because whenever someone mentions Hanzo, they almost exclusively are talking about scatter; either negatively or positively.

My argument has a ton of basis, and your single sentence reply to my many arguments is indicative of that.


You're just being stubborn. The volleys sounds way cooler that Scatter Arrow anyways. Hes getting a mobility option out of this as well.

Its an even trade off. Scatter will fade and eventually we'll all except the new Hanzo.
I'll just tag this thread for when the "OMG Hanzu can du 960 damage in 2 seconds, nurf volley free teamwipe on E!!!"
02/16/2018 01:05 PMPosted by Fate
<span class="truncated">...</span>It's an arrow that scatters into fragments. It doesn't matter if it's a 1:1 representation. And that doesn't even mention his multiple voice lines, sprays, and achievements mentioning the ability. It's iconic to the character because whenever someone mentions Hanzo, they almost exclusively are talking about scatter; either negatively or positively.

My argument has a ton of basis, and your single sentence reply to my many arguments is indicative of that.


You're just being stubborn. The volleys sounds way cooler that Scatter Arrow anyways. Hes getting a mobility option out of this as well.

Its an even trade off. Scatter will fade and eventually we'll all except the new Hanzo.
And you're just being dismissive. If you just want conversations where the only contributions are opinions that agree with you, get a journal.

In my opinion, which I am allowed to have, volley does not sound "cooler" than Scatter. Scatter is one of the most unique abilities in the game. Banking ricochets off of walls and into rooms is one of the coolest visuals in the game. "Firing an arrow fast" is something I've seen countless times before. It's not visually interesting nor is it at all unique in media and video games.

I don't know if volley+mobility ability will be an even trade off for scatter or not. I'm not discussing gameplay balance in this thread. I'm just trying to counter the idea that scatter being in the cinematic is unimportant. I think it is important. I think it's the most iconic part of Hanzo's kit and character, outside of the magic dragon of course. I'm not being "stubborn", I just genuinely think the ability as a concept is cool and might be worth saving through a rework or nerf, rather than outright eliminating it.

I'm sorry if I'm providing too much contrarianism in this circlej3rk, but I thought an alternate opinion might at least be warranted, rather than countless posts patting themselves on the back.
02/16/2018 01:13 PMPosted by Elfcrippler

In my opinion, which I am allowed to have, volley does not sound "cooler" than Scatter. Scatter is one of the most unique abilities in the game. Banking ricochets off of walls and into rooms is one of the coolest visuals in the game. "Firing an arrow fast" is something I've seen countless times before.


The problem is that Hanzos don't do that. They aim at people's feet and that's pretty much it. Very rarely is scatter used on a wall (and even then it's basically a crap shoot if it hits or not). Blizz actually did try removing the ability to bounce off the floor, but it left Hanzo seeming too weak (since shooting the floor was 95% of the utility of scatter).

And lets face it, shooting the floor below an enemy you can see isn't very interesting.
I really wish they would bring reapers bombs back actually, he really has a hard time in this meta.
I don't Hanzo much but even I realize it's a unique and fun skill to use, which makes it a shame that it's being removed. I would have hoped for a heavy damage nerf instead with some compensation elsewhere in his kit. I'm sure if you guys didn't get instagibbed by scatter you would appreciate the skill's design.
02/16/2018 01:16 PMPosted by TheFiend
02/16/2018 01:13 PMPosted by Elfcrippler

In my opinion, which I am allowed to have, volley does not sound "cooler" than Scatter. Scatter is one of the most unique abilities in the game. Banking ricochets off of walls and into rooms is one of the coolest visuals in the game. "Firing an arrow fast" is something I've seen countless times before.


The problem is that Hanzos don't do that. They aim at people's feet and that's pretty much it. Very rarely is scatter used on a wall (and even then it's basically a crap shoot if it hits or not). Blizz actually did try removing the ability to bounce off the floor, but it left Hanzo seeming too weak (since shooting the floor was 95% of the utility of scatter).

And lets face it, shooting the floor below an enemy you can see isn't very interesting.
Well, this is another argument regarding the gameplay balance and mechanics of scatter, which I'm not really touching in this thread. Blizzard has already come to the conclusion that it "feels bad to die to", there's no point in arguing the point now. I can say from personal experience that I do shoot behind corners and into rooms with scatter, as well as use it in close-range situations like you describe. It's an ability that can be used in multiple ways, which in my opinion, is only a bonus.
02/16/2018 01:18 PMPosted by Reazen
I don't Hanzo much but even I realize it's a unique and fun skill to use, which makes it a shame that it's being removed. I would have hoped for a heavy damage nerf instead with some compensation elsewhere in his kit. I'm sure if you guys didn't get instagibbed by scatter you would appreciate the skill's design.
That's basically where I'm coming from as well.
Hanzo is so much fun but it carries something that makes me ashamed every time I have to use it. The Scatter feels a disgrace to FPS games. Yes, sometimes it has to be well placed and well placed Orisa killing scatters actually feels good. No shame in that.

But the other day...I scattered someone, 1 or 2 arrows hit his body, he runs around the corner, second later some random bouncing arrow (that was still there for some reason) hits him. He dies.

Ashamed I apologize and swap off Hanzo accordingly.

Lore or not lore...Imo scatter does not fit with a Japanese hero. No pride in that
Disclaimer: I hate scatter. I get extremely salty when it happens to me regardless of hero. I do not play Hanzo unless I get him in Mystery Heroes.

Rework necessary? Eh...
Possible easy solution? Change how it bounces and how it works so instant kills by shooting the ground at a tank's feet can't happen. Reduce damage so it doesn't do 450. Ect. One shotting squishies is fine. Scattering the ground at Orisa's feet is ridiculous.

I personally think it should bounce off walls in areas where low health heroes are running for health kits and kill retreating flankers. If it could more reliably do that I'd be for it.

Blizzard has the tendency to jump to a drastic solution when a simple one is right in front of them. They don't understand that "K.I.S.S" concept you learn in grade school: Keep It Simple, Stupid.
Anyway, the rapid launching of arrows (the new ability) could be anyway seen like that in the movie °L°'

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