Competitive CTF - Placed Silver then Masters . . . WTF

Competitive Discussion
You can check the CTF placement on this account, and see it is 3500. Prior to this account I placed 1839 (silver) on my other account.

Blizzard, would you like to weigh in on this and help me understand how I can place 1700 points differently days apart?
Its called Luck.
02/20/2018 05:08 AMPosted by Manc
Its called Luck.


luck does not seem like a very good system
Placements mean nothing if you can't hold it for 50 games.
02/20/2018 06:17 AMPosted by Butterland
Placements mean nothing if you can't hold it for 50 games.

Most folks don’t care to play 50 games, especially if most of them are losses, making the system utterly flawed.
02/20/2018 06:30 AMPosted by substatica
02/20/2018 06:17 AMPosted by Butterland
Placements mean nothing if you can't hold it for 50 games.

Most folks don’t care to play 50 games, especially if most of them are losses, making the system utterly flawed.

People who can't bother to play 50 games in comp shouldn't come to the forums and complain about comp.
02/20/2018 06:40 AMPosted by Butterland
02/20/2018 06:30 AMPosted by substatica
...
Most folks don’t care to play 50 games, especially if most of them are losses, making the system utterly flawed.

People who can't bother to play 50 games in comp shouldn't come to the forums and complain about comp.


Why is it that when someone brings up a very specific issue some players feel the need to respond with something totally unrelated. You know the type, you say "dps are diving in before tanks initiate" and they say "shut up until you have played 50 competitive games".

Maybe, just maybe, you should have an opinion about the topic, or start your own thread and have people discuss this totally unrelated topic you have inserted into this thread.
Did you play other heroes? Maybe that's why. I am a diamond Mercy player but I cannot play Genji at all.
Or you just played very poorly... I have two accounts and on both I have almost the same SR.
02/20/2018 08:49 AMPosted by IAmSupport
Why is it that when someone brings up a very specific issue some players feel the need to respond with something totally unrelated. You know the type, you say "dps are diving in before tanks initiate" and they say "shut up until you have played 50 competitive games".

It's not unrelated. The placement system can be wildly inaccurate, but, (and with the caveat that most everything is speculation) one should think of the placement as a temporary rank that must be confirmed by the player's ability to maintain that rank.

Butterland's suggestion is that the OP should confirm that placement rank by playing a fair number of matches before claiming ownership of it.

When these questionable placements happen folks come out the woodwork to suggest that the player doesn't deserve that rank.

One of the troublesome issues with matchmaking is that the more you play the better the system is at arranging matches for you.

One can move quickly to an accurate rank if they start a new account because they can take advantage of the volatility of the initial placement and early matches which are designed to quickly assign you an accurate rank.

If, however, you have an account which you began as an unskilled player and have kept as you improved your skills the system is very bad at moving you to a rank that accurately represents your current skill due to the statistical baggage your account has accumulated.

This represents an argument for clean seasons where player's stats are cleared so that they may be placed based on their current skill level rather than a historical average.

This is also the reason why so many players feel the need to start alt accounts once they have improved, because that's the only way for the system to give them a clean slate.
02/20/2018 08:58 AMPosted by Sombra
Did you play other heroes? Maybe that's why. I am a diamond Mercy player but I cannot play Genji at all.
Or you just played very poorly... I have two accounts and on both I have almost the same SR.


One account plays in Gold, because I am a bad healer. This account placed last season at 3200 and I am 4/5 wins into this seasons placement with hopes it will finally also go to masters. However I did not follow regular comp selection for either account. I made picks based on the game mode. However, the players I was initially matched with were very different. On the lower account I was placed with players who have no idea how the game mode works, but with this account I was consistantly in matches where all 12 players either knew the game mode or at least grouped up with the rest of the team.

The other difference that I was able to note is that it occured days apart where the lower account played in the pre-lucio wall ride change and so players were having an even harder time than usual understanding if they should defend, or group up, or attack, or what. Then after the pre-lucio wall riding patch there was no reason to try and solo cap and diamond-GM level players didn't try to solo anything. If they did it was because they saw an opening and wasn't doing it in hopes it might be a good thing.

Clearly both tiers are very very different. After posting this I played on the lower tiered account to see if the lucio patch has changed anything in that tier. It appears to have had little impact. Most games in Silver/Gold are filled with 2-4 players trying to defend with symm, widow, torb, and bastion. In Diamond-GM games if you see one of them players are nervous about it because they don't want them to be sitting back out of the group fight. Also, in the lower tiers 1 of those players, not per side but one total, will know to group up and do the team fight. The others will be sitting back and leave their team down 1 or more people in the group fight.

Fundamentally Silver& Gold players do not seem to even understand the basic flow of the game mode. This also appears to be true for regular competitive but in more subtle ways like what a tank does and why it initiates, or why going off alone behind enemy lines is not flanking. For CTF the entire game mode seems to be a mystery for them.
Because it takes account your overall performance.
I played all my placements with a friend who's lower than me in regular comp.

I placed master, he placed plat.

It wouldn't make sense to just count that particular game mode, since it does make a difference how skilled you are overall.
02/20/2018 05:05 AMPosted by IAmSupport
Blizzard, would you like to weigh in on this and help me understand how I can place 1700 points differently days apart?


This is just evidence for "Why a MMR reset is a bad idea". CTF uses a new MMR for it. I guess the majority here now didn't start when the game started, but the beginning of real competitive was chaotic too.

Without accurate ranks, people placed all over. It took a couple weeks for ranks to sort out. Once the overall player base was ranked accurately, it is easier to place new people. But at the start, GMs and bronzes are literally at the same rank in each others games and it's chaos.

TL:DR - New rank = wild and inaccurate ratings until enough games sort people out.
its stupid, I am masters in both CTF comp and regular comp yet I will get games with plats and golds in masters, the matchmaker for comp CTF is Fed up
02/20/2018 09:51 AMPosted by FriendlyFire
02/20/2018 05:05 AMPosted by IAmSupport
Blizzard, would you like to weigh in on this and help me understand how I can place 1700 points differently days apart?


This is just evidence for "Why a MMR reset is a bad idea". CTF uses a new MMR for it. I guess the majority here now didn't start when the game started, but the beginning of real competitive was chaotic too.


From everything I have seen and what my peeps have seen our subjective conclusion is that CTF competitive was seeded from your normal competitive, or hidden quick play mmr if you had no competitive history.
02/20/2018 09:18 AMPosted by substatica
02/20/2018 08:49 AMPosted by IAmSupport
Why is it that when someone brings up a very specific issue some players feel the need to respond with something totally unrelated. You know the type, you say "dps are diving in before tanks initiate" and they say "shut up until you have played 50 competitive games".

It's not unrelated. The placement system can be wildly inaccurate, but, (and with the caveat that most everything is speculation) one should think of the placement as a temporary rank that must be confirmed by the player's ability to maintain that rank.

Butterland's suggestion is that the OP should confirm that placement rank by playing a fair number of matches before claiming ownership of it.

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Mathematically impossible to be the issue here.

Let's use 50 games as a requirement. I already did 10, so let's say I lose 40 in a row. Let's even go so far to say I lose 40 points per match. 40*40 = 1600. The only way to even get this close, or to do it would be to lose 50 because I left every game, and would be banned before hitting 50.

A spread of 1700 points is impossible to be accounted for by saying "play 50 matches". Not to mention if someone ever dropped 1600 points it would be viewed as throwing that is how unrealistic the idea of playing 50 games is to this situation.
02/20/2018 10:47 AMPosted by IAmSupport

Mathematically impossible to be the issue here.

Let's use 50 games as a requirement. I already did 10, so let's say I lose 40 in a row. Let's even go so far to say I lose 40 points per match. 40*40 = 1600. The only way to even get this close, or to do it would be to lose 50 because I left every game, and would be banned before hitting 50.

A spread of 1700 points is impossible to be accounted for by saying "play 50 matches". Not to mention if someone ever dropped 1600 points it would be viewed as throwing that is how unrealistic the idea of playing 50 games is to this situation.

Sure, but the underlying point being made was that placing at a rank doesn't mean as much as being able to maintain that rank.
02/20/2018 10:43 AMPosted by IAmSupport
From everything I have seen and what my peeps have seen our subjective conclusion is that CTF competitive was seeded from your normal competitive, or hidden quick play mmr if you had no competitive history.


Seeded perhaps, but even after placement your SR changes for a single game were massive. So maybe you started around your arcade/quickplay MMR, but if every game is pushing you 100+ SR around, you can easily end up or down 500 SR ( a 1000 range gap) depending on how just placements went.

And of course, your two accounts might have had different quickplay/arcade MMRs to start with. Why do you even have two accounts? I assume to play differently.

Finally, your second time you placed higher. Might have helped that you learned the mode better and won more.

**********************************

Again, placing people into an entirely mode is going to be chaotic at first. This is just how ranking systems are.
02/20/2018 10:57 AMPosted by substatica
02/20/2018 10:47 AMPosted by IAmSupport

Mathematically impossible to be the issue here.

Let's use 50 games as a requirement. I already did 10, so let's say I lose 40 in a row. Let's even go so far to say I lose 40 points per match. 40*40 = 1600. The only way to even get this close, or to do it would be to lose 50 because I left every game, and would be banned before hitting 50.

A spread of 1700 points is impossible to be accounted for by saying "play 50 matches". Not to mention if someone ever dropped 1600 points it would be viewed as throwing that is how unrealistic the idea of playing 50 games is to this situation.

Sure, but the underlying point being made was that placing at a rank doesn't mean as much as being able to maintain that rank.


And for the TOPIC being about placements and how a player shouldn't be placed 1700 points apart... where you end up 50 games later isn't really related.
02/20/2018 11:02 AMPosted by IAmSupport
02/20/2018 10:57 AMPosted by substatica
...
Sure, but the underlying point being made was that placing at a rank doesn't mean as much as being able to maintain that rank.


And for the TOPIC being about placements and how a player shouldn't be placed 1700 points apart... where you end up 50 games later isn't really related.

It is related because the system is expected to make mistakes in placement and then correct those mistakes in the long term. If your true rank is in between then it's only an 850 SR offset and there's plenty of folks who lose or gain that much in a week or less.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of the system. Just pointing out that, as most folks understand the current system, placements and the subsequent volatile correction matches are definitely related.
02/20/2018 10:58 AMPosted by FriendlyFire
02/20/2018 10:43 AMPosted by IAmSupport
From everything I have seen and what my peeps have seen our subjective conclusion is that CTF competitive was seeded from your normal competitive, or hidden quick play mmr if you had no competitive history.


Seeded perhaps, but even after placement your SR changes for a single game were massive. So maybe you started around your arcade/quickplay MMR, but if every game is pushing you 100+ SR around, you can easily end up or down 500 SR ( a 1000 range gap) depending on how just placements went.

And of course, your two accounts might have had different quickplay/arcade MMRs to start with. Why do you even have two accounts? I assume to play differently.

Finally, your second time you placed higher. Might have helped that you learned the mode better and won more.

**********************************

Again, placing people into an entirely mode is going to be chaotic at first. This is just how ranking systems are.


I didn't look at game SR changes in CTF beyond placement, except where I specifically cited it above. The topic is really to discuss why a single PLAYER, should place 1700 points apart from each other.

As to your other points, I agree. I actually have more than 2 and each account progressed further before getting to the separation of 1700 between first and last account placements. I don't want to be off topic too far, but there is a story for the multiple accounts and most people after hearing it say "well that makes sense". I do play a ton of hours, way more than this account suggests. I am actually over 1600 in total levels and play regular competitive almost exclusively.

Yes, learning the mode helped. Yes, seeing lucio have wall ride fixed helped. However, I struggle to see how 1700 points is the possible spread for any one person. Unlike regular competitive where I would use all of your ideas and said ya... in regular competitive that makes sense. But, in this situation as we all agree placements were much more broad than they should be. 1700 is such an extreme I wanted to actually have blizzard look into it. No valid placement system should ever have a reason to have the same player split by 1700 points when the entire system is basically 1000-4000 with sub 1k and over 4k being a very small margin of players.

We as a community can't be saying the system needs a reset because we need people in their right tiers, and then also have the system perform so poorly when placing someone for a new competitive mode. These are the types of real world examples we need to point out to blizzard. So that blizzard can look into it and use it to find and fix the underlying issue that creates a 1700 gap between accounts.

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